Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 222

Tue, 17 Jun 2008

• 1. Re: A Majority of World Jewry In Eretz Yisroel (Richard Wolpoe)
• 2. Parthat Behaalotcha "600,000 Ragli" (Henry Topas)
• 3. Re: An old Pshat and a Question About Milchig on Shavuos (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: Halivni's theology (Harry Maryles)
• 5. Re: The 10 Dibros are split into 2 x 5 (D&E-H Bannett)
• 6. Re: A Majority of World Jewry In Eretz Yisroel (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 7. Re: An old Pshat and a Question About Milchig on Shavuos (Arie Folger)
• 8. A Majority of World Jewry In Eretz Yisroel (RallisW@aol.com)
• 9. Re: The 10 Dibros are split into 2 x 5 (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 10. Re: The 10 Dibros are split into 2 x 5 (Richard Wolpoe)
• 11. Re: An old Pshat and a Question About Milchig on Shavuos (Richard Wolpoe)
• 12. Re: A Majority of World Jewry In Eretz Yisroel (Richard Wolpoe)

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:26 PM, <RallisW@aol.com> wrote:

>  What halochos go into effect, once it has been proven that a majority of
> World Jewry reside in Eretz Yisroel? How long do you think it will still be
> before it's a reality?
>
>
>
>
Some questiosn to ponder:

   1. Who is a Jew?
   2. Who has Halachic status to count Jews?  The UN? The US census?
   3. Who has the authority to rule on the count - or the re-count?
   4. Do the following Count:
   1. mehcal'eli Shabbas?
      2. Do Tinokos Shenishbu?
      3. Do unidentified children of Maternal Jewesses? [e.g the Medeline
      Albright's or the Fiorella Laguardia's of the world?]
      4. Do Meshumaddim? [e.g. Cardinal Lustiger whilst alive]


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Moshe Rabbeinu, in discussing the notion of feeding the complaining B'nai
Yisroel, uses the number 600,000, seemingly as the number of those to whom
the Ribono Shel Olam would have to feed meat.  Rashbam notes that this is
exclusive of women and children.  

I am looking for other sources (in the M'forshim or elsewhere) which would
reconcile this number as being only the approximation of the males between
20 and 50 in the census taken in Parshat Bamidbar with the following
question:  

Were the complaints regarding food limited to the males as the only ones
requesting to be fed something other than manna?  

I have seen one approach that this was only the erev rav but it is not
clear.

Thank you,

Cantor Henry Topas

 
 If you eliminate the freewill from the malachim then instead you're
saying that HKB"H is the one who fights with himself. So I guess that a
triumvirate G-D is OK according to your m'halech 
======================================
No, that would be included under the category of teaching a lesson, not
the "reality" {which we are incapable of understanding ) in shamayim.
Does HKB"H really get angry?
KT
Joel Rich
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--- On Sat, 6/14/08, Moshe Feldman <moshe.feldman@gmail.com&;gt; wrote:

>From http://www.forward.com/articles/13553/&;nbsp; (article about Halivni's
theology):
<<The ontological absence of God during the Holocaust was, in other
words, preceded by a long history of eclipses of God's will from what
Orthodox Jews fervently believe to be Judaism's immaculate, revealed
sacred texts, both divine and rabbinic. Halivni's most scholarly and
original contributions to talmudical studies point to the many "bumps
and fissures" in Jewish sacred literature and as such have served,
quite deliberately, to undermine the religious authoritarianism and
maximal claims to access to divine wisdom on the part of the experts
in these very texts, namely, the rabbis.
>>

Rabbi Dr. Yaakov Elman (who teaches Talmudic Criticism at Bernard
Revel) accepts the notion that many of our texts have been corrupted
or misinterpreted, but reconciles that with his fealty to Halacha by
drawing the exact opposite conclusion of that of Halvni.  Based on R.
Tzadok HaCohen (can anyone provide a cite?), Dr. Elman says that
Hashem deliberately caused these textual problems in order to allow
for Halacha to develop differently over time than the way originally
envisioned by the Tannaim.

----------------------------
 
Much of R. Halivni's theolgy is in line with Dr. Berkovits's Shitos as
expressed in Lo BaShamyim He. AIUI, he claims that TSBP was intended by God
to remain Oral. That it was written down as an Eis Laasos should not
detract from the essential nature of Oral law which was intended to be
flexible. He cites numerous examples in Chazal (which I do not recall ar he
moment) to demonstrate this point. He complains that the codification of
TSBP in the SA is rigidly and wrongly treated like TSBK.
 
Dr. Berkovits?s point is slightly different than R. Halivni?s point which
is to dispute the audacity of those who attempt theodicy in explaining
events like the holocaust. 
 
But I believe that they are both trying to say that there is a non Torah
based and therefore unreasonable rigidity that has evolved in the Torah
world that produces both of these attitudes.
 
HM
 
Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/




      
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Re:  <<9-10 parsha breaks as in the Masoretic text
Then you can make a case for 4and 6.
I.E. Lo sachmod is TWO and anochi and Lo Yihye are really 
one [iow NO BREAK]>>

Doesn't the idea of 9 dibros seem weird?

See Breuer who shows that that breakdown that joins the 
first two dibrot is an error.

In fact Heidenheim made the correction of separating  the 
first dibber in taam elyon some 200 years ago. Breuer makes 
an additional correction and has an explanation of how the 
errors developed stage by stage over the years.

So, despite most "regular" chamashim, the masoretic text of 
ta'am elyon had and should have 10 dibrot and not nine.


David

RallisW asked:
> What halochos go into effect, once it has been proven
> that a majority of World Jewry reside in Eretz Yisroel?

In order for this to be "proven", one would need to do various things. One
of these things would be to count World Jewry, which is halachically
problematic, but nevertheless demographers are pretty good at it. On the
far distant other hand, demographers use a definition of "Jew" which is not
at all similar to the definition we'd use. Thus, it will be rather
difficult to get adequate "proof" anytime soon.

My guess is that even after the demographers claim that most of world Jewry
is in Israel, it will take a long time until we accept it as a vadai. On
the other hand, there will probably be a recognizable shift from today's
"presumably no" to "real safek", and even that will cause real changes to
halacha l'maaseh, and so I look forward to further responses on this topic.

Akiva Miller

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RMSS wrote:
> I must say that I'm very surprised. "Not reality"? When you bite into a
> fruit tree's bark you taste any fruity flavors? It was a direct command
> from HKB"H that in reality was disobeyed. If you eliminate the freewill
> from the malachim then instead you're saying that HKB"H is the one who
> fights with himself.

Please check Maharal (Gur Aryeh) on the Rashi on this verse. G"d showed that 
the unity of the created (the fruit) and its creator (the tree) cannot exist 
in the purely material world. Only man can rise above this. He translates the 
issue as failure, not sin of the trees and earth.

Theologically most attractive.
-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

Does a majority of Jews in Eretz Yisroel necessitate the building of Bayis  
Shlishi as well as Challoh, Trumoh & Maasrous  D'Oraiso?



**************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 
2008.      (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)
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> Re:  <<9-10 parsha breaks as in the Masoretic text
> Then you can make a case for 4and 6.
> I.E. Lo sachmod is TWO and anochi and Lo Yihye are really
> one [iow NO BREAK]>>

I once posted about the difference between MHK's Chumash and just about
everyone else's. See
http://esefer.blogspot.com/2007/05/aseres-hadibros.html, with a grateful hat
tip to RYG.

KT,
MYG

On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 11:05 AM, D&E-H Bannett <dbnet@zahav.net.il> wrote:

> Re:  <<9-10 parsha breaks as in the Masoretic text
> Then you can make a case for 4and 6.
> I.E. Lo sachmod is TWO and anochi and Lo Yihye are really one [iow NO
> BREAK]>>
>
> Doesn't the idea of 9 dibros seem weird?
>
> See Breuer who shows that that breakdown that joins the first two dibrot is
> an error.
>
> In fact Heidenheim made the correction of separating  the first dibber in
> taam elyon some 200 years ago. Breuer makes an additional correction and has
> an explanation of how the errors developed stage by stage over the years.
>
> So, despite most "regular" chamashim, the masoretic text of ta'am elyon had
> and should have 10 dibrot and not nine.
>
>
> David


100% agreed. As a fan of Heidenheim etc.

But if you IGNORE the T'amim/Neginnos and focus upon parsha breaks, there
are indeed TEN but not the Ten we know and love, but another TEN, with 2 lo
sachmods!

And the parsha breaks are AFAIK are also part of the Mosorretic text.


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org> wrote:

>
>
> Please check Maharal (Gur Aryeh) on the Rashi on this verse. G"d showed
> that
> the unity of the created (the fruit) and its creator (the tree) cannot
> exist
> in the purely material world. Only man can rise above this. He translates
> the
> issue as failure, not sin of the trees and earth.
>
> Theologically most attractive.
> --
> Arie Folger
>  <http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com>


Indeed "cheit" [as opposed to Avon or pesha] can mean error or missing the
mark.  The translation of Cheit as sin can often make the text a bit
harsher.  While we may be held RESPONSIBLE for fixing a heit, we are not
always "guilty" in the same way one would be in a pesha. Responsible to Fix
YES. Guilty for error, is perhaps too strong,perhaps obligated to CORRECT an
erro, obligted for Tikkun [or korban chatas] might be a better understanding
- more charitable, too.

Don't forget that terms such as chov and Chayyav can mean obligated as wells
as culpable/liable.

FWIW, a favorite Shabbas Shuva Draswha of mine was to point out that it was
NOT Adam's "sin" that got him kicked out of Gan Eden, but his lack of
Teshuva. Same With Sha'ul re: Amaleik. [and perhaps Kayyin re: Hevel, too]

David ws mesakken for BOTH Adam and Sha'ul byt willing to 'fess up [and for
arguably a bigger aveirah]

Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 12:54 PM, kennethgmiller@juno.com <
kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:

> RallisW asked:
> > What halochos go into effect, once it has been proven
> > that a majority of World Jewry reside in Eretz Yisroel?
>
> In order for this to be "proven", one would need to do various things. One
> of these things would be to count World Jewry, which is halachically
> problematic, but nevertheless demographers are pretty good at it. On the far
> distant other hand, demographers use a definition of "Jew" which is not at
> all similar to the definition we'd use. Thus, it will be rather difficult to
> get adequate "proof" anytime soon.
>
> My guess is that even after the demographers claim that most of world Jewry
> is in Israel, it will take a long time until we accept it as a vadai. On the
> other hand, there will probably be a recognizable shift from today's
> "presumably no" to "real safek", and even that will cause real changes to
> halacha l'maaseh, and so I look forward to further responses on this topic.
>
> Akiva Miller
>

once upon a time we discussed "eino ra'uy l'acilas kelev"  Do we conduct an
actually lab experiment [with a Labrador perhaps?] in order to confirm this?


The Answer is: NO. It is what Rababnim would deem not fir for a kelev to
eat.

I Imagine that the majority of Jews in Israel can NEVER be verified in an
objective fashion.AISI  It would probably happen Halachically speaking when
Rababnim take it as a matter of fact.



-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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