Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 230

Tue, 24 Jun 2008

• 1. believe in ourselves (M Cohen)
• 2. Mapik (Gershon Dubin)
• 3. R' Samson Raphael Hirsch and the Imrei Emes (Gerrer Rebbe) (Prof. Levine)
• 4. common sense/halacha (Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org)
• 5. Re: Aishdas/ Imrei Emes (T613K@aol.com)
• 6. Re: Halachic Texts: More Background (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Korach Tzaddik Katamar Yifrach (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Heroes, Victims and Kedoshim (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Korach Tzaddik Katamar Yifrach (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Heroes, Victims and Kedoshim (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Heroes, Victims and Kedoshim (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Heroes, Victims and Kedoshim (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Heter mechira (Yitzhak Grossman)

I have heard many times from my rebbi (R Noach Orlowek of Torah Ohr Jer'm)
that

every Jew must know that he/she are intrinsically good.

(and therefore should believe in themselves/have self esteem)

 

his oft-quoted rayah is from birchas hashachar..

 

elokai - neshama shenasata bi tehorra hi..

 

mordechai cohen

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Someone told me this morning that only one parasha, Korach, has not mapik heh.  Can anyone confirm this easily?  Speculate on its significance?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

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At 08:29 AM 6/24/2008, Rn T. Katz wrote:
>
>It is noteworthy that Rav Shimon Schwab related that the Imrei Emes once
>told him that "the Tzaddik of Frankfurt [Rav Hirsch] was a liebidige mussar
>sefer [a living mussar sefer]."  The Gerrer 
>Rebbe's assessment and awe of  Rav
>Hirsch should now come as no wonder.
>
The Imrei Emes was not the only rebbe to hold RSRH is high esteem.

On one occasion, while he was attending the 
shiurim of Rabbi Simcha Bunim Schreiber (1843 - 
1907), a grandson of the Chasam Sofer and author of Shevet Sofer,

         Reb Shraga Feivel found himself the 
object of criticism when he was seen studying 
Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch?s works. Because 
Rabbi Hirsch wrote       in German vernacular, 
his works still occasioned suspicion within the 
deeply conservative Hungarian yeshiva world of 
the day. Reb Shraga Feivel was     summoned to 
appear before the yeshivah administration. At his 
?trial? he enlisted the assistance of an old Jew 
living in Pressburg, who testified that 
thirty   years earlier, when his first wife?s 
mental disability forced him to seek permission 
from one hundred rabbis to take a second wife, 
the Divrei Chaim of         Sanz had advised him 
to travel to Frankfurt-am-Main to obtain the 
signature for Rabbi Hirsch, telling him, ?What I 
am to Galicia, he is to Germany.?[i]


[i] Reb Shraga Feivel, the Architect of Torah in 
America by Yonoson Rosenblum,  Mesorah Publications, Ltd. 2001, pages 34 ? 35.


Yitzchok Levine 
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http://torahweb.org/torah/2007/parsha/rsch_korach.html        .... This 
young talmid chochom told me, no, we may not use common sense at all, and 
even though the halacha ? as he misunderstood it ? made no sense, he has ?
emunas chachomim.? I told him that this was a Christian concept (the 
principle of the infallibility of the posek). 

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In a message dated 6/24/2008 10:45:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
Philip.Silverman@bcbsga.com writes:

"Ironically, two out of the three items that this chassidic giant cited as 
the biggest accomplishments of his lifework are directly linked to Rav Hirsch:  
Agudath  Israel and Bais Yaakov."
>>I know you didn?t mean it, but the first time  I read this, I thought you 
were saying that the Imrei Emes was taking credit  for an accomplishment that 
belonged to someone else. I?m sure you just meant  that both men (among others, 
 too) were heavily involved in these  endeavors.<< 



>>>>>
I didn't write the line you cite, I merely quoted it from the Mishpacha  
article.  I probably should post a clarification in avodah:  the  entire Mishpacha 
article makes it clear that Hirsh laid the groundwork for both  the Agudah 
and the Bais Yakov movement, but neither actually came into being in  Hirsch's 
life time.
 


--Toby Katz
=============

President Reagan talked with the Soviets while pushing ahead  with the 
deployment of Cruise and Pershing missiles in Europe. He spoke softly ?  after 
getting himself a bigger stick.  --Mark Steyn




**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for 
fuel-efficient used cars.      (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
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On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 12:18:46AM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: Artscroll has done a msterful job in BOTH its Mishna and Talmud to connect
: the texts with the CODES such as Rambam/Tur and especially Shulchan Aruch .
: One of the earlier works to do this was the Tiferes Yisrael on the Mishnah.
...
: Rav Kook began a project of showing Halachah from the Talmud...

Speaking of which, I was reminded of something that would probably
interest RRW, and if not, some others of the chevrah.

R' Prof Ta-Shma notes that someone reading a seifer can usually have a
"feel" for whether it's a rishon or an acharon. He attributes this
difference in feel to three qualities:

1- They dealt not only with single sugyos, but with tying them together
across shas and across time.

3- Rishonim didn't need to seperate the genres of pesaq lehalakhah
ulemaaseh from peirush.

4- Attention to girsaos.

No acharon consistently pulls off all three. Of course, one needs to
take it on faith that Rashi does #1, but that's a different story. I
presume RPTS's full argument is more convincing.

R' Elyakim Krumbein, in his KMTT shiur on the Gra, notes that these
three features are also found in the Vilna Gaon's writings. He ties
things together horizontally to an extreme - eg his ability to relate
every halachic claim in the Zohar to one in shas. And through time --
that's the core of the biur on SA. The Gra also shows how every pesaq
in the gemara is derived from an understanding of the mishnah. And of
course, his lack of separation between pragmatics and peirush lead him
to numerous distinct pesaqim.

One might be able to argue that the Gra was treated like a throwback
to the rishonim because experimentally, he proved himself capable of
rishon-style work.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You will never "find" time for anything.
micha@aishdas.org        If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Charles Buxton
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 08:41:46PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
: There are eleven Tehillim which have in its first verse a recognition  
: of the "livnei Korach."...

Contrary to an earlier reply, Rashi (Bamidbar 26:11, and 20:22) cites
chazal (cf Sanhedrin 109a) that benei Qorach did initially join the
rebellion. They did teshuvah while at the mouth of the pit.

:           However, his comment "For all the congregation are holy" was  
: an egregious error and missed the major point that our holiness is not  
: an automatic condition, but rather, a potential for which to labor,  
: not an assured state...

I think both are true. Or, as RYBS put it beris goral, which is
inescapable, vs beris yi'ud which a person must choose to live up
to. But there is an inherent qedushah in being "beni bechori Yisrael".

Which brings me to another thread...

(continued in next post)

(This post ties in to the previous, despite being on different threads.) 

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 07:30:19PM -0400, Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
: I have wondered for many years whether there is *any* classic source
: for the notion that one who is killed for being a Jew, as opposed to
: one who *voluntarily* gives up his life for God, His Torah, His Mizvos,
: or His people, can be said to have died Al Kiddush Hashem.

The Belzer Rebbe holds that the purpose of the Holocaust was that it
shifted the definiiton of qiddush Hashem. Until then, the only Jews who
were meqadeish sheim shamayim were those who elected to live as Jews.
The Nazis y"sh made identity by birth a defining feature and thereby
gave that feature the power to bring ge'ulah.

However, the BR seems shevach, since I think there are examples from
well before the Holocaust.

Most Shabbasos we say "Av haRachamim". The Crusaders didn't give them a
chance to choose between Torah and death. Being a Jew meant living in the
ghetto, and living in the ghetto meant being a victim of murder, fire,
rape and looting. And while it's possible that we're only referring
to Jews who lived al pi halakhah, they are called "masru nafsham al
qedushas hasheim" despite simply being victims for who they were, not
what they did.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
micha@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 08:41:46PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
> : There are eleven Tehillim which have in its first verse a recognition  
> : of the "livnei Korach."...
> 
> Contrary to an earlier reply, Rashi (Bamidbar 26:11, and 20:22) cites
> chazal (cf Sanhedrin 109a) that benei Qorach did initially join the
> rebellion. They did teshuvah while at the mouth of the pit.

I thought the claim was that Rashi on Megilah 14a says this.  All he
adds to the gemara there is a translation of the word "nitbatzer".
He certainly doesn't say that they are still living on the high place
that rose up for them in gehenom to save them.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

Micha Berger wrote:

> Most Shabbasos we say "Av haRachamim". The Crusaders didn't give them a
> chance to choose between Torah and death.

Yes they did.  Meshumadim were accepted as the equal of any Xian.
Discrimination against meshumadim didn't arise until Spain, and even
there, while they were under suspicion and heightened scrutiny, and
not accepted as quite the equal of a born Xian, they were certainly in
no danger of death (so long as they remained loyal Xians).


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 05:36:34PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
:>Most Shabbasos we say "Av haRachamim". The Crusaders didn't give them a
:>chance to choose between Torah and death.

: Yes they did.  Meshumadim were accepted as the equal of any Xian.

They reached Germany about three weeks before the Worms ghetto fell. What
opportunity to shmad do you think people had? Or in London. The only way
out of London's ghetto led to Clifford's Tower in York.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 05:36:34PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> :>Most Shabbasos we say "Av haRachamim". The Crusaders didn't give them a
> :>chance to choose between Torah and death.
> 
> : Yes they did.  Meshumadim were accepted as the equal of any Xian.
> 
> They reached Germany about three weeks before the Worms ghetto fell. What
> opportunity to shmad do you think people had? Or in London. The only way
> out of London's ghetto led to Clifford's Tower in York.

Any one of them could easily have called out his willingness to shmad,
and would have been let out.  None of them chose to do so.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:36:11 -0400
Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:

> Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
> > Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:
>  
> >> 4. BTW, if the goy takes the chametz and doesn't pay, he can be sued
> >> for the money, but the chametz is still his.  His ownership doesn't
> >> depend on his payment.  And in the forms I've seen there's a Jewish
> 
> > Actually, many Poskim consider a default on payment to be possible
> > grounds for retroactively annulling a sale.  See, e.g., Nesivos
> > (190:7), Bah (HM 96:23), Pis'hei Teshuvah (ibid. 2) and Beis Meir (EH
> > 90:9 s.v. Kayamim Be'azmam ... V'hinei Ha'Zarich Iyun She'hiniah Harav
> > Ha'Maggid ...).
> 
> Not if there's an arev kablan.

If / when the arev kablan refuses to pay, then the sale will still
presumably be void, according to the aforementioned opinion.

> Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat



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