Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 238

Thu, 03 Jul 2008

• 1. Re: Vegetarianism [was "the cohen gadol...] (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Vegetarianism [was "the cohen gadol...] (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Vegetarianism [was "the cohen gadol...] (Doron Beckerman)
• 4. Re: Taxes (David Riceman)
• 5. Re: Vegetarianism [was "the cohen gadol...] (David Riceman)
• 6. Re: the cohen gadol and marriage to a pubescent girl (David Riceman)
• 7. Re: the cohen gadol and marriage to a pubescent girl (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 8. Re: cohen gadol and marriage to a pubescent girl (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 9. Re: cohen gadol and marriage to a pubescent girl (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: the cohen gadol and marriage to a pubescent girl (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 11. Re: the cohen gadol and marriage to a pubescent girl (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Vegetarianism (Doron Beckerman)
• 13. Re: Vegetarianism (Doron Beckerman)
• 14. Legal vs. Moral (Joseph Kaplan)
• 15. Re: R' Samson Raphael Hirsch and the Imrei Emes (Gerrer Rebbe) (Richard Wolpoe)

On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 03:47:35PM -0400, T613K@aol.com wrote:
: The Korban Pesach will be grain? Matza? ...

Who said there will be a Pesach? Aside from the aforementioned medrash, it
is implied in the haggadah that there will be no mitzvas zechiras yetzi'as
mitzrayim (which the Rambam seems to use to include sippur as well).

We follow ben Zoma's derashah for "KOL yemei chayekha". By saying there
is a chiyuv bizman hazeh at night, we rejected the Chakhamim's derashah of
"lehavi liymos hammoshiach".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The waste of time is the most extravagant
micha@aishdas.org        of all expense.
http://www.aishdas.org                           -Theophrastus
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 02:56:09PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : Doron Beckerman wrote:

>:>Rav Kook zt"l wrote another multi-part article in Hapeles in 
>:>1902 about vegetarianism - that [...] in the 
>:>future there will be no Korbanos except grain - based on Vayikra Rabbah, 
>:>when the world is at its morally refined peak.
 
>: I don't believe you.  This is outright kefirah.

> More than Mishlei Rabba 9, which deduces from Esther 9:28 that all the
> other yamim tovim but Purim will cease?

And *nobody* takes that literally, because doing so would be kefirah.


> I don't understand either, but at least RAYK has a precedent.

I suspect that RAYK has once again been misrepresented, and didn't write
any such thing.  Without having read the article, I can even speculate
what he might really have written: perhaps he wrote that in the future
the mincha will be considered the ikkar of the korban and the animal
will be considered the tafel, instead of the other way around as it was
in the Mishkan and the first two Batei Mikdash.  Which is a very different
thing.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

I wondered about the Korban Pesach also. I think you have to say, according
to Rav Kook, that we'll be eating meat for a while after Binyan Beis
HaMikdash. LeAsid Lavo might mean much, much later.

Apparently, though, the Abudraham and R' Tzadok Hakohen in Pri Tzaddik hold
that the Medrash only means to exclude Chatas, Olah, and Asham which are
brought for sins, but Korbanos Tzibbur will continue. R' Tzadok says that
clearly the Torah will not change in regard to Korbanos Tzibbur, (as per one
of the Ikarim of the Rambam.)

RnTK writes:

>> The Korban Pesach will be grain?  Matza?  In one way that's a relief,
because I don't care for lamb.  But Korech will be strange.  Here we know
that when the BHM'K stood, Hillel ate matza wrapped around a piece of lamb,
with some greens.  In the future BHM'K we will eat matza wrapped around some
more matza?  <<

>  *
>
> *
>
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Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
> <citing RMB>
>> DDD applies to the law as practiced, not as codified. And while there
>>     
>
> Source?  I've seen this claim, but I know of no authoritative source
> for it.
>
>   
It's not exactly what you want, but see the citation of the Rashbam in 
Tshuvot Tashbetz 1:158, and see the opinion of the Ramban cited in Magid 
Mishnah H. Gezeilah V'aveidah 5:13-14.

David Riceman

Doron Beckerman wrote:
> Rav Kook zt"l wrote <snip> in the future there will be no Korbanos 
> except grain - based on Vayikra Rabbah, when the world is at its 
> morally refined peak.
>  
IIRC he wrote this about nedavos, not about all korbanos (see his 
commentary on the passage in the Siddur "v'arvah lashem minchas yehudah 
....").

David Riceman

I wrote:
> Just to back up a bit, is the age of majority prescribed in halacha 
> d'oraysa or d'rabbanan?
See Tshuvos HaRosh 16:1.

David Riceman

On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:53:23 -0400
Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 12:15:21PM +0300, Yaacov Shulman wrote:
> : I have adapted as a working principle the idea that "darkei noam"--"ways of
> : pleasantness"--constitutes an essential dynamic in Torah...
> 
> But what does it mean? Obviously not that it's okay to avoid hurting
> grandma's feelings if she asks you to drive over on Shabbos.
> 
> Derakheha darkhei no'am is descriptive, not prescriptive. Perhaps if a

It is obviously *sometimes* prescriptive; the Gemara (Yevamos 87b, and
see Tosfos ibid. 2a s.v. V'Ahos Ishto)  proposes a Kal V'Homer arguing
that a woman whose husband had a live descendant at the time of his
death who subsequently died should return to Zikas Yibum. and
then refutes it by citing the verse: "D'racheha darchei noam v'chol
n'sivoseha shalom".

> -Micha

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

R' Mordechai Cohen wrote:
> ...in most cases the issue in not applicable, because when
> appointed the KG can stay married to his current wife.
> ie only in the relatively rare case of a widowed KG would
> the mitzvah have relevance.

I recall learning that on Erev Yom Kippur, the Kohen Gadol would take a
second wife al tenai, so that it would be valid if his main wife would pass
away that night. This way he'd still be married the next day, and be able
to do the avodah.

If this is correct, this provisionary second wife would have to be a young
naarah, and this would occur every year. Some might think it would be weird
and dificult to find women who would be willing to take this gamble, but
given the prestige of the kohen gadol's position, maybe it would not be all
that difficult. In any case, the current discussion points out that there
would be the additional weirdness of the age difference.

My point is that it would not be relevant "only in the relatively rare case
of a widowed KG", but that it would be relevant every year. Perhaps my
memory of this halacha is faulty.

Akiva Miller

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On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 02:32:12AM +0000, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: I recall learning that on Erev Yom Kippur, the Kohen Gadol would
: take a second wife al tenai, so that it would be valid if his main wife
: would pass away that night. This way he'd still be married the next day,
: and be able to do the avodah.

Mishnah Yumah 1:1, in a machloqes between R' Yehudah and the Chakhamim, R'
Yehudah requires that second wife (vechipeir ba'ado ube'ad beiso - beiso
zu ishto) , and the Chakhamim respond "Im kein, ein ladavar sof".


: If this is correct...

Given yachid verabim, I presume we do not hold like R' Yehudah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
micha@aishdas.org        exactly the right measure of himself,  and
http://www.aishdas.org   holds a just balance between what he can
Fax: (270) 514-1507      acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham

R' David Riceman asked:
> Just to back up a bit, is the age of majority prescribed in
> halacha d'oraysa or d'rabbanan? Logically it should be
> d'oraysa, since that's the age when hiyuvim d'oraysa begin.
> OTOH I know of no Biblical source prescribing either age or
> physical characteristics for onset of majority.

I once heard that adulthood for mitzvos is a "shiur", just like a kezayis of matza, or techum Shabbos -- and as such it is a Halacha L'Moshe MiSinai.

Unfortunately I have no source.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 02:37:33AM +0000, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: R' David Riceman asked:
: > Just to back up a bit, is the age of majority prescribed in
: > halacha d'oraysa or d'rabbanan? Logically it should be
: > d'oraysa, since that's the age when hiyuvim d'oraysa begin.
...

: I once heard that adulthood for mitzvos is a "shiur", just like a
: kezayis of matza, or techum Shabbos -- and as such it is a Halacha
: L'Moshe MiSinai.

There are two questions, shenei sa'aros and age. Bar/t mitzvah ages are
definitely deRabbanan, enacted based on rov, presumably so as to avoid
embarassing and un-tzeniusdik checking. Besides, how could you know they
weren't there once?

So the question is whether shenei sa'aros was an earlier derabbanan or
halakhah leMosheh miSinai. It was explained to me lema'aseh that a geir
qatan would have to have qabalas ol mitzvos within tokh kedei dibbur of
shenei sa'aros. Since this is impossible to arrange, we instead use the
fact that he was living as a shomeir Torah umitzvos during the duration
that includes that moment as an implicit proof of qabalah. Implying
shenei sa'aros is a shiur deOraisa.

Checking the MB 281 s"q 3, it says that only someone with 2 sa'aros could
be motzi another in dinim deOraisa. Which would also seem to imply that
age is a shiur derabbanan, and therefore only usable for dinim derabbanan.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nearly all men can stand adversity,
micha@aishdas.org        but if you want to test a man's character,
http://www.aishdas.org   give him power.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      -Abraham Lincoln

The link for Rav Kook on Korbanos is here, beginning line 12:

http://www.he
brewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=12939&;hilite=34e9a38d-8550-4b11-8cb
1-fc7bba4f95e2&pgnum=726

To be honest, I heard that Rav Kook held this way about a year ago, and I
has the same reaction as RZS. Someone pointed out an ambiguous source for
this idea in Rav Kook's siddur. But recently I found this link - it sure
seems like he did say it.
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I would also add to what R' Micha wrote, a reference to Midrash Tehillim
146, on "Hashem Mattir Assurim", that, L'Asid Lavo, Hashem is going to be
Mattir all non-kosher animals, or Niddah (!)
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> Re: the discussion in Areivim about whther closing a business and  
> not paying off creditors (presumably because the closed business,  
> as opposed to its proprieter, doesn't ahve the money.)  (The  
> moderators asked me to move this to Avodah.)

> RMB argues (in Areivim) that in the various questions I posed about  
> his business =
> closing scenario (Did the debtor borrow the money with the  
> intention to =
> pay it back?  Was he acting in good faith?  Was closing his business =
> that owed money proper under secular law?  etc.) I was acting as a =
> lawyer and trying to answer the question is it legal rather than is  
> it =
> right.  Well, I can't help being, and sometimes acting like a  
> lawyer, =
> but I WAS dealing with the question is it right?  Now, it appears  
> from =
> R' Micha's further responses to my post and that of RZS(all in  
> Areivim)  (with whom, =
> perhaps for the first time, I seem to completely agree :-)) that the =
> debtor acted in bad faith.  If that is the case, then what he did  
> wasn't =
> right (even if it was legal).  But how does RMB know that he acted  
> in =
> bad faith.  Most people, when they go into business, think it will  
> be a =
> success; most, when they borrow money fully intend to pay it back.  =
> Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out that way.  So if the  
> parties =
> were acting on the assumption, as many O businesspeople do in my =
> experience, that secular business law would apply, the lender knew  
> that =
> if the borrower's business was unsuccessful and did not have the  
> assets =
> to repay the loan, then he (the lender) would have to write off the =
> loan.  He knew, going in, that the borrower was not putting his  
> personal =
> assets at risk; if he wanted the borrower to do that he would have  
> asked =
> for a personal guaranty. So it would be unfair for the lender to  
> change =
> the rules of the game and to violate the assumptions and agreements, =
> freely entered into when the loan was made, and think that it would  
> be =
> "right" for the borrower to use his personal assets to pay back a =
> business loan.
>
> I'm not saying that in all cases where the borrower meet all the =
> technicalities of the law it would be "right" for him not to repay  
> the =
> debt personally.  I can envision situations where it would be legal  
> not =
> to repay but morally wrong.  But RMB has not given us enough facts  
> to =
> conclude that.  To the contrary, on the few facts given, not  
> repaying =
> the loan seems to be morally proper.  (Of course, the borrower  
> could act =
> lifnei meshurat hadin and personally repay the loan, but that is a =
> different matter.)
>
> I just saw a further response by RMB (in Areivim) where he writes:
>
> "Wouldn't most suppliers like forewarning? Perhaps work out some kind
> of payment? Especially given the tightness of the old boy network,
> shouldn't he try to pay them before any assets are distributed to
> larger companies that could better afford the loss, or at least
> non-Jewish ones? (If you have to mess up someone's life, why one of
> our own?)"
>
> That's why facts are so important.  Did he treat the one creditor  
> you =
> know worse than others?  Did he pay off bigger companies first?   
> Did he =
> have a legal obligation to do so?  Were their bills due first? Did  
> he =
> pay everybody a part of what he owed?  The SPECIFIC facts are  
> critical, =
> and an off the cuff reaction -- perhaps legal but not "right" -- is =
> shooting from the hip and perhaps being unfair to the borrower.   
> Legal =
> and right aren't always the same, but they often are, and yes,  
> lawyers =
> do know the difference and can deal with both concepts.
>
>
> Joseph Kaplan

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 10:16 AM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 12:47:18AM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> : What is interesting is that Yekkes by and large learn little mussar at
> all.
> : They just practice a very polite and proper way of life.  I wonder if
> 1,000
> : mussar books are worth a few ounces of actual practice ingrained into a
> : community.
>
> In Madreigas haAdam (first essay), the Alter of Novhardok explains the
> need for mussar by starting with Avraham avinu and breaking down history
> into eras. In the era he calls the era of the yeshiva, from chazal until
> the haskalah, there was a symbiotic relationship between yeshiva and
> ir. They shared one culture and one outlook.
>
> With the haskalah a rift opened. The street went out of sync with the
> yeshiva. What was until then transmitted culturally was no longer being
> passed down.
>
> RYS had to come up with a formal methodology for teaching that which
> until then people were learning by osmosis. That methodolgy to create
> the person our environment should have made us is Mussar.
>
> I think therefore the Alter of Novhardok would answer RRW with a
> resounding "definitely". But cultures dissolve, and then all you're left
> with is books and techniques to try to mold who you are.
>
> : After leaving a very pollite/coureeous society in West Hartford to go to
> : various Yeshivos, the first [and one of the only] community that gave me
> the
> : feel of  "home" was  the Washington Heights community in  which  people
> : naturally had a sense of etiquette.
>
> Not that I'm ch"v accusing Breuer's of having one but not the other, but
> in principle "etiquette" and ehrlachkeit are different things. E.g. the
> Victorian British were renown for their abilities at politely stabbing
> each other in the back.
>
> *Yaft* E-lokim leyefes. It's an aesthetic of interpersonal relations, not
> a substance. It's not for nothing that "polite" comes from the past
> participal of the Latin meaning "to polish". Surface.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --


They have ACCUSED --smile-  RSRH as being a walking mussar sefer. My point
is that musarr seforim work better when they walk. I attend ner israel
[named after RYS hi9mself BTW] I found Mussar shmuessen a mixed bag at
best.  sometimes it engendered leitznus - just like praise can engender avak
lashon hara.

OTOH, i have found that MANY talmiddim from certain yeshivos do have really
good Middos. Breuer's is one and "Chofetz Chaim" is another.

I did not mean to attack Mussar, I meant to question the efficacy of READING
or LEARNING mussar from a sefer. It works MUCH better when I society
practices it.

You can learn techniques from a Sefer, how to execute something better, but
I have rarely seen Mussar "book" learning do that much good. [a reall
farbrente ba'al teshuva might be a valid  exception]

OF course a person who is MOTIVATED to change can get hizzuk from a good
Musar Sefer.

BTW, I am looking to start a list of Seforim that  re-inforce Ahavas
Yisroel. I have found 2 really good ones so far


   1. Tanna devei Eliyahu
   2. Sh'miras Halashon

If someone wants to break off a thread on Sifrei Ahavas Ysiroel I would be
pleased.



RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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