Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 275

Tue, 29 Jul 2008

• 1. Re: police misdeeds and trial evidence (Richard Wolpoe)
• 2. Re: nes nigleh (Richard Wolpoe)
• 3. (no subject) (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 4. Re: nes niglah (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 5. Re: nes niglah (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: Halachic Texts: More Background (hankman)
• 7. Re: Lashon Hara about non-Jews (Doron Beckerman)
• 8. Re: nes nigleh (Doron Beckerman)
• 9. Re: TIDE and Austritt (Rich, Joel)
• 10. Re: Buying a dirah (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 11. siruv (Micha Berger)

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:

> Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
>
>> R' Eli Turkel:
>>
>>> about the effect of police doing things wrong on the subsequent trial
>>> evidence.
>>>
>>> what does halacha say?
>>>
>>
>  Is there such a thing as evidence according to Halachah? Fingerprints,
>> sound
>> or video recordings, expert testimony, etc. - are they admissible in Beis
>> Din?
>>
>
> Such evidence would be admitted by BD in order to impeach witnesses.
> And I see no reason to believe that BD would care in the least how this
> evidence was obtained.  It speaks for itself, after all.  If it relies
> on the testimony of the person who got it, then of course his wrongdoing
> might make him pasul le'edut.  But the exclusionary rule is something
> that was invented by USAn judges in the early 20th century, and would
> seem to have no more place in halacha than it does in any other legal
> system.
>
>
> --
> Zev Sero



See KSA yomi for the last few days.  There is a concept of midvar sheder
tirchak andwhen  a man standing by silently who knows NO testimony but is
there for appearances only [to intimate one of the baalei din] he is
"ohveir"  -even though he makes ZERO false statements.

I am not saying for sure that this applies to Zev's case but it is worth
contemplating and researching


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 1:57 PM, Doron Beckerman <beck072@gmail.com> wrote:

> The staff of Aharon turning into a snake and back into a staff and eating
> the others. The fire of Eliyahu consuming the water of the Mizbayach.
> L'maaseh even the Rambam had to explain certain Nissim as programmed into
> the nature of the things that the NIssim had to, since they were seemingly
> breaks of "normal" natural occurences. So somehow that fire was programmed
> to be able to consume water - but that's not the normal property of fire.
>
>
>


I am not saying these are not nissim gluyyim
BUT
It is feasible to argue that everything occured in a form of vision and not
in te physical plain.

Consider holograms.  Steven Spielberg could have made all of the miracles
APPEAR but they would not have been there physically rather they would be
holographic projections.

Again, I am not defeintely saying that they WERE holograms, it's just you
cannot PROVE that had the Rambam had access to this technology that he would
have said otherwise.

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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R. Zev Sero wrote

<In any case, as I pointed out earlier, non-eidus evidence, including women's testimony, is admissible in order to impeach witnesses.>

R. Yitzchak Grossman asked
  
<You have said this several times; what is your source?>

and RZS responded

<For one thing, the eidim for kidush hachodesh were examined, in part,
by comparing their testimony to Rabban Gamliel's chart; if they said
something that the chart showed was impossible, their testimony was
dismissed, even if their internal consistency was perfect.>

     The chart was not evidence; it was an aid to the witnesses in giving
     their testimony.  If they were able to describe the situation without
     recourse to the chart, their testimony would have been rejected as
     well -- internally consistent testimony to an impossibility will never
     be accepted.  The chart's purpose was to make clear what it was that
     they were attesting.  It was not the chart that impeached their
     testimony; it was their stating that they had seen an astronomically
     impossible situation pictured on the chart which made their testimony
     unacceptable.  

     That is hardly comparable to the situation under discussion, which is
     whether the use of evidence independent of their testimony can be used
     to impeach what they attested.  

     (There is one such case discussed in the g'mara: where they testified about the death of an individual, and ba harug b'raglav.)

     As for women, other than the cases in which they are acceptable as
     witnesses (sotah, eglah arufah, death of a husband), their testimony
     is completely disregarded where there are valid witnesses; and even
     where they _are_ eligible to testify, while we follow the majority in
     cases where they contradict one another, yet if 100 women are
     contradicted by one valid male witness, his testimony is the
     equivalent of theirs.

EMT

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R' Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
> Well, there are some on-list who would say that these are
> all allegories (or, if they don't say it, I fail to
> understand why these are not allegories while other
> instances must be).

We often hear varied stories about this tzadik, or that gadol, and frankly,
they are sometimes difficult to believe. I have often heard this as a
common reaction to such incredulity: "If you think all these stores are
true, then you're a fool. But if you think they're all false, you're an
apikores. The message of these stories is that they *could* be true."

I think a similar thing could be said about miracles and allegories. Sure,
SOME of the midrashim may have been intended as allegories. But to say that
ALL of these miracles were mere allegories, that NONE of them actually
happened as described, is to insist that Hashem could not have done such
things even if He wanted to. And if He is not capable of such miracles,
then what IS He capable of?

Akiva Miller

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kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:

> We often hear varied stories about this tzadik, or that gadol, and
> frankly, they are sometimes difficult to believe. I have often heard
> this as a common reaction to such incredulity: "If you think all these
> stores are true, then you're a fool. But if you think they're all
> false, you're an apikores. The message of these stories is that they
> *could* be true."

Well, no.  Each individual story claims to be true; some of them have
messages, but the truth of the message may to varying degrees depend on
the truth of the story (depending on how novel the message is).  The
saying is about this whole corpus of stories, that it's not possible
for them all to be true, it must be that many false stories have crept
in over the years, but it's difficult to know which particular stories
are false, because to a believer they're all plausible.  Disproving
such stories depends on external evidence, and generally ends up with
it remaining possible that the basic story happened, but to another
person, or in another place, etc.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

RRW wrote:

Had I know  that this husband was a sociopath I would not have  accepted
kiddushin.
Presto! afkin'u based upon mikach ta'us  <<
---------------------------
CM comments:

Both afkinu and mekach ta'us are independent causes for the bitul of a kidushin. They are not dependent one upon the other.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster
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Revisiting an issue I raised a long time ago, it is apparent that it is
wrong to speak LH about non-Jews due to slippery slope t speaking about
Jews, as per Devarm Rabbah 6:9 and the Chiddushei Radal there. So when I
asked why it wasn't Assur if the issue was bad Middos, and concluded that
Pirud Levavos was the real concern - while that may be true on a technical
D'Oraysa level, it isn't really so L'maaseh.
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Rabbi Wolpoe writes:

>> I am not saying these are not nissim gluyyim
BUT
It is feasible to argue that everything occured in a form of vision and not
in te physical plain.

Consider holograms.  Steven Spielberg could have made all of the miracles
APPEAR but they would not have been there physically rather they would be
holographic projections.

Again, I am not defeintely saying that they WERE holograms, it's just you
cannot PROVE that had the Rambam had access to this technology that he would
have said otherwise. <<
If the Rambam were willing to say that it was just a vision but it didn't
really happen - he didn't need recourse to hologram technology. He could
have said that Moshe/Aharon and Eliyahu caused all present to hallucinate
these occurences and be convinced of their reality, which is not a
radical suspension of nature.
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From: "Rich, Joel" JRich@sibson.com
    >>For those who are interested, R'YBS has a long piece on the
issue of orthodox military chaplains (both from the macro and micro
viewpoint) in Community, Covenant and Commitment.  He is in favor.<<
    
   

>>>>>
Exactly what I would have expected.  People always wonder why the rest
of the Torah world somewhat kept its distance from RYBS.
 
My father was never an army chaplain (and didn't approve of Orthodox
Jews taking that job, which involves almost inevitable halachic
compromises) but was very involved with Jews in the military, especially
when we lived in Newport News -- where there are several nearby military
bases.  I mention this only to point out that not serving in the
chaplaincy does not mean abandoning Jewish servicemen.
 


--Toby Katz
============= 
 
 R'YBS's tshuva takes up 35 pages in the book.  He first deals with the
micro-halachik issues for wartime chaplains (1950-Korean war, orthodox
chaplains not meeting the demand which was being filled by non-orthodox)
.  He then deals with the macro issue-what happens if orthodox chaplains
do not volunteer (e.g. who will deal with Jewish Servicemen as a whole,
what will the impact be on non-religious Jews and on the perception of
orthodoxy) and concludes it is our duty to take up the challenge.   IMHO
this goes to the heart of a major divide between MO and charedi
orthodoxy - to what degree do we concern ourselves with the  portion of
our mesora which deals with the more universal klal. In a related
context I strongly suggest listening to
http://www.michtavim.com/Marc_B_Shapiro_Authority_of_Moroccan_Rabbinate_
March_20_2007_YU.WAV where R" DR M Shapiro discusses the Moroccan
rabbinate.
 
KT
Joel Rich



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On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:22:25 -0400
David Riceman <driceman@att.net> wrote:

> Micha Berger wrote:
> > While on tangents about MK.... I believe that feeding your 12 yr old
> > daughter would qualify for maaser money. Don't think that's a great idea,
> > but in terms of the technical din... You have no chiyuv qua parenting
> > to feed or educate children who are gedolim. Shouldn't 100% of your HS
> > tuition quality -- once you already got to say Barukh shePatrani?
> >   
> Why 12? Hazal permit you to send your kids off to work once they turn 
> six! IIRC Rabbi Feinstein has a tshuva in which he disagrees with you 
> (YD 1:143) and says you need to support them as long as typical kids 
> live at home.

And don't forget the edict of the Israeli chief Rabbinate (R. Herzog
and R. Uziel, Rosh Hodesh Adar 5744), establishing an obligation to
support children until age fifteen.  See Ozar Ha'Poskim (71:12:1, p.
124) for a discussion of this.

> David Riceman

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

[I agreed to the poster's request for anonymity because of the nature
of the topic. -mi]

1- if someone is placed in siruv etc for get issues, what is the
responsibility of the shul he davens in?
must he be asked to leave? is he allowed to be a member?

2- if the shul knowingly harbors such an individual does it affect the
status of the shul?

3- is there a policy on this issue by the OU, aguda, RCA ?


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