Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 321

Mon, 08 Sep 2008

• 1. Re: Y'fas to'ar, etc. (Ira Tick)
• 2. Re: Y'fas to'ar, etc. (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Y'fas to'ar, etc. (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 4. Y'fas to'ar, etc (M Cohen)
• 5. HaShem as God's Name (yfel912928@aim.com)
• 6. Re: HaShem as God's Name (Aryeh Herzig)
• 7. Re: More Philosophy, If Anyone's Up to It (Richard Wolpoe)
• 8. Re: Torah Only - Hora'as Sha'a (Richard Wolpoe)
• 9. going to the bathroom (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Re: Y'fas to'ar, etc. (Daniel Eidensohn)

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 5:41 AM, Cantor Wolberg <cantorwolberg@cox.net>wrote:

> *The following has always bothered me and let me explain why...(following
> the text and commentaries)
>
> *
> The explanation of pasuk 11 that if God did not permit her to him, he would
> then take her illicitly, flies in the face of the whole point of Torah. We
> are given the yetzer tov and the yetzer ra and are constantly challenged
> with overcoming the latter. With the reasoning given, why not allow
> adulterous relationships when a man comes across a beautiful woman. Why not
> allow eating treif if one is overcome by a delicious looking steak?  I don't
> mean to sound facetious, but is there anyone out there who understands my
> point?  We have so many mitzvot that can be rationalized the same way.
>

I think you misunderstand.  The Torah is acknowledging that, in the form of
the captive woman in the midst of battle, there will be in Jewish national
life common scenarios of consistent insurmountable temptation that are
practically unavoidable.  The Jewish nation will periodically, not
incidentally, need to defend itself by going to war.  In war, the "heat of
battle" is extremely intense and hormones are skyrocketing--adrenaline,
testosterone, cortisol (from the stress).  Inhibitions break down and
passions flare.  The soldier cannot train himself to avoid the problem, like
a person curious about the MacDonald's french fries that smell so good, or a
man who lets his mind wander to lewd thoughts about another's wife.  The
soldier must fight and fight whenever he's called upon to do so.   So the
Torah acknowledges that its own demands to go to war conflict with its
demands for sexual purity, and makes a special allowance.  Otherwise, people
may lose their conscience altogether and do regretful things.

Two historical examples of what happens in war, when there is no established
rule for accomodating, and thereby regulating, man's weaknesses:

1) In the last days of WWII, German women (not that I'm necessarily pitying
them, mind you) died trying to cross over to the American lines, so that
they would not be raped by the Russians.  Some killed themselves before the
Red Army reached them.

2) Eisenhower instituted a policy of "no fraternization" with German women
as the US Army reached into Germany, to uphold a firm anti-Nazi policy.
This did very little to stop young fighting men from taking advantage of the
opportunities available to them.  Wouldn't have worked in peace time, let
alone during the ongoing war...
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Cantor Wolberg wrote:

> The explanation of pasuk 11 that if God did not permit her to him, he 
> would then take her illicitly, flies in the face of the whole point of 
> Torah. We are given the yetzer tov and the yetzer ra and are constantly 
> challenged with overcoming the latter. With the reasoning given, why not 
> allow adulterous relationships when a man comes across a beautiful 
> woman. Why not allow eating treif if one is overcome by a delicious 
> looking steak?  I don't mean to sound facetious, but is there anyone out 
> there who understands my point?  We have so many mitzvot that can be 
> rationalized the same way.

Because all of those temptations can be overcome with sufficient effort,
and this one can't.  There will exist at least some soldiers for whom
this yetzer hara simply can't be overcome no matter how hard they try,
and Hashem doesn't expect the impossible, just the very very difficult.
Indeed the fact that we have a heter here and not in other cases serves
as chizuk in those other cases; it may seem to a person that resistance
is impossible, and he has no choice but to succumb, and Hashem tells
him no, I who made you know your limits, and if this were beyond your
limits I would have given you an escape valve, as I did in the case of
Yefat Toar.  So however impossible it seems to you, try harder, because
I assure you it is possible.  (Not that this is much consolation to the
one who does fail, as we all do; but that's another discussion.)


> The explanation of pasuk 13 seems equally irrational. Firstly, a woman 
> is taken against her will, and then we're being so thoughtful by 
> allowing her to cry for her parents a whole month. Then, he can be 
> intimate with her. The commentary continues to say that the Jewish woman 
> should be happy?!  Give me a break. This is totally irrational and both 
> women (the captive and his wife) are objects and are being used.

Which is exactly why Rashi doesn't say that we're being thoughtful to
the Yefat Toar.  That's what the simple pshat would seem to be at first
glance, but it has a problem as you point out; which is why Rashi says
no, that isn't the reason at all.  Instead the reason is to give him a
chance to change his mind.  Let him see her at her worst-looking, and
his wife at her best, and the odds are that the yetzer hara will pass
during these 30 days, and he'll get rid of her; having had his way
with her he can't sell her, so he must set her free.  But if his yetzer
is so strong that after 30 days of this treatment he still can't resist
her, then she converts and he can marry her, though the Torah warns him
that he's going to end up hating her, and will be unable to divorce her.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

R' Wolberg asked:
> The explanation of pasuk 11 that if God did not permit
> her to him, he would then take her illicitly, flies in
> the face of the whole point of Torah. We are given the
> yetzer tov and the yetzer ra and are constantly challenged
> with overcoming the latter. With the reasoning Given, why
> not allow adulterous relationships when a man comes across
> a beautiful woman. Why not allow eating treif if one is
> overcome by a delicious looking steak?

One of my teachers used exactly this logic to show that for the other
challenges, one DOES have the ability to overcome the yetzer hara. But for
this particular situation, G-d made the world in such a way that it is NOT
possible to be strong enough. Exactly why G-d chose to give us this
weakness is a separate (and probably unanswerable) question. But from the
evidence shown by the verses and R' Wolberg's questions, it does seem that
He did make the world as described.

Another of my teachers proposed a slightly different answer, which is that
we see from many reports of war, this challenge is indeed often too great
for the soldier to fight. But with the additions of Hashem's mitzvah of
letting her mourn, and the other things prescribed by the verses, this will
tip the scales so that the soldier WILL be able to resist his urges. (But
this answer does not resolve the problem of him being innocent if he does
the rituals and succumbs anyway.)

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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The text has always bothered me also...

the 'best' explanation of the Y'fas to'ar story that I have seen over the
years (wrt to a reasonable explanation of these actions of the tzadikim that
went to war) is of the ohr hachaim hakadosh.

ayin sham.

mordechai cohen

I think the use of "Hashem" is a sociological phenomenon. That is, whereas
it had been the community preference to fit-in and be considered
religiously normal among other Americans, there came to be a
need/inclination to stand out and be different. Like so much else in
contemporary Yiddishkeit, it probably stems from a reaction to the 1960's,
when differences became points of pride and ethnicity suddenly shined and
mattered.

It also set Orthodoxy apart from Conservative, Reform, etc.and seemed to say that while they worship everyman's God, we worship Hashem, the "Jewish God".

It has gotten to the point, interstingly enough, where Orthodox actually
blush when we say "God" between ourselves (or when in the presence of
non-observant Jews along with other Orthodox)?and quickly mutter?the term
"Hashem" as an aside.

-- Yaakov Feldman

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Cantor Wolberg wrote:  As a child in  50's I NEVER heard HaShem used other than Boruch ata HaShem so as not  
to make a b'rocho l'vatala. But when referring to God in conversation,  
we always said God. This was in Yeshiva circles, etc. etc.
The fact that the Shulchan Aruch says to say HaShem may be referring  
to the context I just indicated but for general usage (even if the  
shulchan aruch meant that) in practice, I never heard it. It seems to  
have become popular later on.


As someone who was also a child in the fifties with survivor Yiddish-speaking parents, I attest that this is absolutely true.  
People today have become averse to using the word "G-d" in normal
conversations.	(According to the last mishna in Berachos it seems
important to Davka use the name of G-d and even pronounce it in greeting
another Jew.)

More evidence:  Last names are at least two to three hundred years old.   You've heard of "Gottlieb", of course.  Have you ever heard of "Hashemlieb"?



Aryeh Herzig


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On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 9:11 PM, Ira Tick <itick1986@gmail.com> wrote:

> wn.
>
> Anyway, here goes...
>
> I posted an email on Areivim asking listmembers if they thought of Torah
> obligations as personal, covenantal, or metaphysical and what they felt
> about viewing religion and ethics as objective or subjective.  Several
> people, including some Areivim moderators, felt that the post was better
> suited for Avodah.  I have finally given in, so here it is:
>
>
> IJT
>
> _______________________________________________
>

I see the fundamental as SOCIeTAL/COMMUNAL

If the Torah is a akin to a constitution
The itss preamble - AISI - is:
*v'atem tihyu li mamlechet kohanim v'goy qaddosh*

Individual perfection is just that, for indivduals so inclined to be great
souls [Mahatma's] it is not the basis for Torah

The goal of Tiorah is imho 2-fold
to promote a JUST and HOLY society

Any Ethicla Cultrue can be JUST but it is not holy.

And if [by way of illustration] a Kosher Food Purveyer follows Yoreh Dei'ah
and defies choshen Mishpat they are not just.  Judaism requires BOTH
Sanctity and Ethics

While we all may personally relate to God, communal prayer with a minyan
trumps indvidual prayer [for the most part].

IMHO Korach refused HIS deisgnation [caste?] and made trouble. if everyone
on the crew mans his OWN battel station we will all be better off

Yes -  and my role is social critic -smile-


-- 
Kesiva vaChasima Tova
Best Wishes for the New Year 5769
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

>
> It's not trying to 2nd guess what he was trying to accomplish, but to
> simply read what he said. In RSRH's value system, the ghetto was something
> we nebich had to endure and temporarily stunted out opportunity to live
> according to the Torah.
>
>
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>

And AISI some in the Torah only world see the ghetto as a lechatchila and
the TIDEr's and the "MO's [I prefer Centrists in this context] agree with
Hirsch that this is short of the ideal.

Those RWO who want to put the genie back in the bottle are really longing
nostalgically for the kind of oppression prevalent in Eastern Europe before
the emanciaption.  That was a horrifc way of life.

That is why I have been on a quest to find the best Western European
Techniques for Adating a Torah lifestyle hear in America. And that includes
TIDE but also Tosafos and others with a Western influnece, incuding Western
Sephardim from Amsterdam and Hamburg [think of Rabbi De Sola Pool, et. al.]

If we can distill and combine the ideals of the Hirsch's-  and other
like-minded emancipated Torah girants - we can live in American Openly w/o
the need of retreating but go on the offensive.

For exmaple, today in America we might need MORE Rambam and Less Arizal
while say in EY the opposite might be true.


-- 
Kesiva vaChasima Tova
Best Wishes for the New Year 5769
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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how often should someone go to the bathroom?

http://
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1220526711565&;amp;pagename=JPos
t%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

-- 
Eli Turkel

see the Ohr HaChaim who discusses your question

Cantor Wolberg wrote:
> The following has always bothered me and let me explain 
> why...(following the text and commentaries)


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