Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 330

Wed, 17 Sep 2008

• 1. Re: HaShem as God's Name (Zev Sero)
• 2. saying tehillim (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: Unusual Minhag (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: bat mitzva "bo bayom" (Ira Tick)
• 5. Re: bat mitzva "bo bayom" (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: saying tehillim (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: bat mitzva "bo bayom" (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 8. Re: bat mitzva "bo bayom (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 9. Re: bat mitzva "bo bayom" (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: bat mitzva "bo bayom" (Michael Kopinsky)
• 11. fasting on Rosh Hashanah and selihot (Dov Bloom)
• 12. Fasting on Rosh Hashanah (Cantor Wolberg)

SBA wrote:

> This thread reminded me of us as youngsters saying (when not davvening or
> making a brocho) "Adoshem" rather than "Hashem".
> Anyone else hear it said thus?

Yes.  The obvious advantage when singing or chanting is that it
preserves scansion.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

<<My guess is that there is no posek or minhag who has a clear cutoff
point to describe which additions they say and which they don't.
Rather, I suspect, each addition was judged on its own merits: "Will
this community appreciate this proposal and benefit from it, or will
they consider it to be a burden?" And thus, some were added to the
local nusach and others were not. If I am correct, then this is what I
was referring to in my post, when I wrote that It is also quite
possible that in some communities the
minhag simply didn't "catch on" and become popular.>>

As an example is saying kabbalat shabbat. This was introduced
by talmidim of the Ari. In nusach sefard (edot miszrach) it
is somewhat different than nusach ashkenaz (and chassidim).
This took a while to become universally accepted. There was an
era in which some communities said it and others objected.
In the long rin "it caught on"

As an aside it is generally recognized that kabbalat shabbat
should be said before sunset but many communities dont make it
on time

-- 
Eli Turkel

Cantor Wolberg wrote:
> Has anyone ever heard of fasting on Rosh Hashanah?

As something that's actually done, or as something that some people used
to do?  It's obvious from SA OC 597 that it used to be done, but I've
never heard of anyone in the 20th century doing it.  But there's a
hangover in the din that if you forget yaaleh veyavo in benching on RH
you don't have to repeat it.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

It really does not matter whether or not the transition to adulthood is
something to celebrate.  A seudas mitzvah is specifically to honor one's
accomplishments and one's significant choices and to celebrate the good that
has been done for the person and for the Jewish people.  A bar or bat
mitzvah has yet to accomplish anything other than become old enough to start
making choices and searching for the opportunity for achievement.  As was
said before, celebration by itself is more like a seudas hodaah, or simply a
happy occasion.

Reform and Conservative Jews in America glorify the bar mitzvah because the
children are practically expected to abandon religion at the age when their
parents can no longer force it on them, so a big deal is made of the
"committment" of the children to accept communal and religious
responsibility for the future, even after they leave the Hebrew School...
That's probably how the custom of children reading the Torah for their bar
mitzvah became popular.

Perhaps this is why even we Orthodox borrow this practice, because its
always worth impressing upon our kids the importance of accepting
responsibility of Torah willingly and yet with a sense of duty, so that bar
mitzvah is about personal pride and committment, and not just about being
liable for punishment and having to run the gauntet of adolescence.

Many bar mitvah boys complete sedarim of mishnayos for their bar mitvah or
something similar as well.  Many young ladies prepare explanations of the
parsha or share insights about their favorite Biblical heroine or Torah
passage pertaining to women, etc (hopefully not their parent or teacher's
insights--we should encourage kids to do some original thinking for their
bar/bat mitzvah.  Probably then it is a seudas mitzvah...
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On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 07:39:36PM -0500, Ira Tick wrote:
: Perhaps this is why even we Orthodox borrow this practice, because its
: always worth impressing upon our kids the importance of accepting
: responsibility of Torah willingly and yet with a sense of duty, so that bar
: mitzvah is about personal pride and committment, and not just about being
: liable for punishment and having to run the gauntet of adolescence.

Celebrating bar mitzvah is older than Reform. They turned it into a major
catered affair, rather than shnaps and cake after Shacharis. But then,
they also typically enjoyed more wealth first.

Most of us know informally that the consensus among contemporary poseqim
is that bar mtivah, at least bo bayom, is a se'udas mitzvah. The maqor
usually cited in speaches at the mesibah is R' Yosef's celebration
upon learning that blind people like himself are chayavim in mitzvos
(Qiddushin 31a). We see that being a bar chiyuvah is cause for a
se'udah. The Maharshal (of the Yam shel Shelomo) writes that if R' Yosef
merely finding out he was a bar chiyuva is sufficient cause, al achas
kamah vekamah the day a boy actually becomes one! The Maharshal calls it
a se'udas mitzvah.

The bar mitzvah party in Poland in his day was "shalashudis", where the
boy gave a speech and marked his adulthood by leading the mezuman.


As for bas mitzvah, it too pred (taken via the SCJ FAQ, scjfaq.org):
- The Ben Ish Chai says she should wear a new outfit and have in mind to
  include ol mitzvos when making the shechiyanu

> - Rabbi Yitzchak Nissim Z"l quotes from Rabbi Mussafya (1606-1675, born in
>   Spain a rabbi and personal doctor of King Critian the IV of Denmark.
>   later he moved to amsterdam) that the day of the Bat Mitzvah is a day of
>   celebration and the dinner is a "Se'udat Mitzvah" (mitzvah dinner).

> - In Italy (Torrino and Milan) it was customary to gather the Bat Mitzvah
>   girls and the community during a weekday, the girls stood in front
>   of the open Aron Kodesh and recited (dividing the prayers among
>   them) a special prayer written for them which included a blessing of
>   Shehechiyanu and ended "Baruch Ata Hashem Lamdeynee Chukecha"...
>   [note, the prayer was also said by bar mitzvah boys]. Then the rabbi
>   speaks and blesses the girls and their families. Afterwards, there is
>   a Se'udat Mitzva at the girls' home

Mordechai Kaplan, father of Reconstructionism, turned this Italian
minhag, the Florencian version, into the modern non-O bas mitzvah.
His daughter Judith's bas mitzvah is generally recognized as the first
in the US.

But there is at least some connection to mesorah on bas mitzvah as well.

But what are you celebrating? It's not becoming chayav deOraisa rather
than midin chinukh, because that is 2 sa'aros, not a birthday. It's
becoming old enough to be assumed deRabbanan to be chayav in the mitzvah
itself rather than chinukh.

: Many bar mitvah boys complete sedarim of mishnayos for their bar mitvah or
: something similar as well.  Many young ladies prepare explanations of the
: parsha or share insights about their favorite Biblical heroine or Torah
: passage pertaining to women, etc (hopefully not their parent or teacher's
: insights--we should encourage kids to do some original thinking for their
: bar/bat mitzvah.  Probably then it is a seudas mitzvah...

I went one step further and borrowed from the non-O the practice of a
chessed project. One son spent a year raising money so that he could give
out technogifts to kids his age at a nearby oncology unit on his birthday,
the 2nd of Chanukah. (Tzedaqos tend to get teddy bears and Candyland.) A
daughter spent every Shabbos giving respite for a family with two autistic
sons, enabling the husband to get to shul, which continued after her bat
mitzvah as well, b"H. Her triplet brothers raised enough money ($13k)
to build a special needs playground at Camp Simcha Special in memory of
a friend's older sister.

In addition to a siyum and leining some of their parashah.

We need to get our children used to being ehrlicher balebatim in addition
to being lamdanim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
micha@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rabbi Israel Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 04:16:12PM -0700, Eli Turkel wrote:
: As an aside it is generally recognized that kabbalat shabbat
: should be said before sunset but many communities dont make it
: on time

The minyan should be performing tosefes Shabbos when they say "Mizmor
shir leyom haShabbos", so it must be as RET says.

A consequence: If the minyan is late, then Shabbos began before Lekha
Dodi, so aveilim can't be greated with HaMaqom Yenacheim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

R'n TK:
AFAIK even the bar mitzva celebration is a relatively recent innovation.?
IIRC in MOAG it says that R' Yakov Kaminetsky did not have any kind of
celebration for his bar mitzva. He was a young boy away at yeshiva?far from
home and maybe the Rosh Yeshiva wished him mazal tov on his birthday.?
Maybe he got an aliyah. Did anybody even drink a lechaim?? Probably not.? I
think that was pretty common.
-----------



KT,
MYG

> From: T613K@aol.com

> There is a difference between an "accomplishment" and a "milestone." 
> Having
> a siyum marks an accomplishment -- there was something you had to  do.
> Having a birthday is a milestone.

And in many communities, birthdays are celebrated (with no connection to the 
American custom).
My daughters always like to say the following quote (attributed to Rav 
Soloveitchik):

"Your birthday is the day that Hashem decided that the world couldn't go on 
without you".

There are many milestones that  go unmarked.
> For instance, the day a woman gives birth to a baby is a  huge milestone 
> for
> her, guaranteed to be remembered for the rest of her  life.  But there is 
> no
> se'uda associated with it.

The Se'uda is not Bo Bayom - b/c the Yoledet is still in danger, and usually 
not up to a party.
For a boy - we have the Brit.

For a girl, it has been custom among many Sephardim that you have a se'udah 
for the newborn and the yoledet a few months afterwards, when the yoledet is 
up to it.  It is known as Zeved HaBat [NOT britta].

  She can make a  se'udas hoda'ah if she wants but most
> people don't.

I have on tape Rav Ushpizai HaZaken (as we called him) former Chief Rabbi of 
Ramat Gan, talking about how Zeved HaBat was a seduat Hodayah, and how 
wonderful it was. [taped during my youngest Zeved HaBat]

yet there
> never was any such thing as a bas mitzva celebration until the
> Reconstructionists and then the Reform came up with it.

And this is where I MUST protest.

The truth is that it is an ancient minhag among Italian Jews (and some 
Sephardi communities).

The Italian custom included gathering a group of girls who were Bat Mitzvah, 
on a regular day.
After davening Shacharit, the Aron Kodesh was opened, the girls were brought 
before it, and piyutim and blessings were recited by the congregation and 
the shul Rabbi.
Afterwards each family would have a se'udat Mitzva.

I read somewhere that actually the Reform took this custom from the Italian 
Jewry customs.

Shoshana L. Boublil

Micha Berger wrote:

> But what are you celebrating? It's not becoming chayav deOraisa rather
> than midin chinukh, because that is 2 sa'aros, not a birthday. It's
> becoming old enough to be assumed deRabbanan to be chayav in the mitzvah
> itself rather than chinukh.

In a significant percentage of cases the sa`arot come before the shanim,
in which case the ba[rt]-mitzvah day really is the day they become chayavim
mid'oraita.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Ira Tick <itick1986@gmail.com> wrote:

> It really does not matter whether or not the transition to adulthood is
> something to celebrate.  A seudas mitzvah is specifically to honor one's
> accomplishments and one's significant choices and to celebrate the good that
> has been done for the person and for the Jewish people.  A bar or bat
> mitzvah has yet to accomplish anything other than become old enough to start
> making choices and searching for the opportunity for achievement.  As was
> said before, celebration by itself is more like a seudas hodaah, or simply a
> happy occasion.
>

That does  not explain why a bar mitzvah is a seudas mitzvah, whereas any
other occasion is not. If I want, I can make my 23rd birthday part "to
celebrate the good that has been done for [me] and for the Jewish people,"
but that doesn't make it a seudas mitzvah.

Reform and Conservative Jews in America glorify the bar mitzvah because the
> children are practically expected to abandon religion at the age when their
> parents can no longer force it on them, so a big deal is made of the
> "committment" of the children to accept communal and religious
> responsibility for the future, even after they leave the Hebrew School...
> That's probably how the custom of children reading the Torah for their bar
> mitzvah became popular.
>

I think you have it reversed.  Because bar mitzvah is made into such a big
thing, the kids view it as an end, rather than as a beginning. They don't
glorify it because it's the end, rather it's viewed as the end because they
glorify it so much.  Lately, efforts have been made to remind the kids that
a bar mitzvah is only the beginning, but those are efforts to stem the tide,
not the original form.

KT,
Michael
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See Tur OH 597, Bach al atar and Taz on SA OH who all discussed why one
should NOT fast. They had to be speaking against an entrenched minhag to
fast, otherwise why waste so much ink?
Mordechai HaShalem on RH p. 24-29 brings the RIBAM student of Rabeinu Tam
who fasted and brought a proof from a Kal VaHomer... also a R Avraham
miBihem and others...

Scholarly opinion holds that fasting on RH was a prevalent minhag of EY in
times of the geonim, opposed by Geonei Bavel.  The vast majority of
Rishonim opposed it, however there are threads of the practice in Ashkenaz
during Rishonim times, not too surprising if one follows the theory that
minhag EY influenced minhag Ashkenaz. 

The Tur OH 581 brings the geonim ( "R Cohen Tzedek - minhag shtei
haYeshivot...") who had a minhag to say selihot on Aseret Yemei Tshuva.
From the continuation of the Tur it is clear that there is a close
connection between selihot and fasting ("veRov Tzibur Mit'anim...").
 
So.... we should say selihot and fast 10 days - right? 

However, our minhag now is NOT to fast on RH or Shabbat or erev YK. So we are missing 4 days out of the 10!

Solution: add at least 4 days of selihot before RH, so everyone (or at
least rov tzibur)  can say selihot and fast 10 days, thus filling in the
days we need to get to 10.

Result: the days of selihot in minhag Ashkenaz. 
This explains the strange starting days of slihot in minhag Ashkenaz: start
always on MotzShabbat, if that gives you 4 days of selihot at least, fine.
If not (RH is on M or T), move starting date up a week. 

>From: Cantor Wolberg <cantorwolberg@cox.net>
>Subject: [Avodah] Unusual Minhag
>Has anyone ever heard of fasting on Rosh Hashanah?

The following is the link (excellent, by the way) that JM sent.

"The Aruch Hashulchan says a very interesting pshat. He says that  
fasting on Rosh Hashanna is dangerous, and it brings upon one a strict  
scrutiny min hashamayim. If one fasts and then he dies before the year  
ends, then it wasn't a good idea to fast. If he survives, that proves  
that in Shamayim they liked his taanis, and so he is obligated to fast  
Rosh Hashanna for the rest of his life."

I find the above tongue in cheek. In other words, if you fast, you  
risk an early death, but if you don't die, then it was a good taanis.  
That's like someone looking for a position as a Rav or a Hazzan and he  
is told at every shul he applies they only hire k'lei kodesh with  
experience. How can he have experience if they don't hire him? It's a  
catch 22, as is the taanis.

Kol tuv.
ri
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