Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 382

Mon, 10 Nov 2008

• 1. Re: Even More on How the Torah Portrays Great Men (T6...@aol.com)
• 2. Re: How the Torah portrays our great men (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 3. Another View on How to Portray People of the Past (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: fashla! WAS bread machine and taking challah (Gershon Dubin)
• 5. Re: a troubling halacha (R Davidovich)
• 6. Aveilus (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: Aveilus (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: a troubling halacha (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: Sandakos (Micha Berger)
• 10. Mishpat and Tzadakah (Yitzchok Levine)
• 11. childbirth (Eli Turkel)

 
 
In a message dated 11/9/2008, Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu writes:

>>That author's brother, R' Mordkhai  Schwab, however, had a negative view of 
"story tell-when he told me, "The  Satmarer Rav, R' Yoilish Teitelbaum, never 
told 'stories ' because he  said, 'You cannot educate through lies  
[shekar].''' R' Mordkhai agreed with R' Yoilish in reference  to stories intended to 
glorify their principals while dehumanizing them.  <<



>>>>
My understanding of what the SR said was not,  "Tell the truth, warts and 
all" but "DON'T make up stories that never happened  or add embellishments to 
make the mofes greater."
 
There's a story going around the internet right now about an Iranian ship  
loaded with radioactive sand that was supposed to be blown up off the coast of  
Israel, so the sand would blow all over Israel, and miraculously the ship was  
boarded by Somalian pirates who started dying in droves, thus the plot was  
uncovered and the Israelis were saved and this all happened on Yom Kippur!   
Amazing story!  Radioactive sand!  What a load!
 
Somebody thought that this story would inspire people but there is no  
justification to disseminate sheker.  If you want to write an inspiring  work of 
fiction it must be clearly labeled as fiction.
 
Where the gray area comes in is when you write a true story about somebody  
but you leave out everything that can be construed as negative.  At what  point 
do the omissions themselves so alter the story that it is no longer  "truth"? 
 There's no clear one-size-fits-all answer to this question.   BTW we just 
enjoyed an amazing election campaign in which the press demonstrated  that it 
/can/ ignore and omit all negatives when it wants to and that "Dan  lekaf zechus 
-- no matter what!" /can/ be a working principle of the working  press.  Some 
issues really are black and white.
 


--Toby  Katz
=============



**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other 
Holiday needs. Search Now. 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?
redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20081109/c341a297/attachment-0001.htm>

> On Sun, Nov 09, 2008 at 10:22:21AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> : A maamar chazal that mentions phrenology?  Isn't that strictly a 19th-
> : century "science"?

R' MB: 
> You're right. I probably should have said physiognomy.

If anyone is interested in looking it up, this is in Tiferes Yisroel,
Yachin, Kiddushin 4:77. It's also brought down - a bit differently - in
Noam Hamidos, Cheilek 1, Maareches Ches, Siman 78:2. (He brings it down
from his father, who he identifies in his Hakdamah as being the Ohr
Hachaim. Does anyone know if his father was THE Ohr Hachaim, or a different
one?)

KT,
MYG

At 06:13 PM 11/9/2008, Ben Waxman wrote:

>Because writing one part only (the inspiration) and leaving out the rest is
>a distortion.
>
>Ben


In 1994 Rabbi Aharon Feldman published an article titled "Gedolim 
Books." I have put this article at
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/feldman_gedolim_books.pdf

It relates to this discussion and is, IMO, worth reading.

Yitzchok Levine  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20081110/52578e3b/attachment-0001.htm>

Make another batch, put them together in one utensil, and take (probably with a beracha.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com


_____________________________________________________________
Click for a credit repair consultation, raise your FICO score.
http://thirdpartyoffers.ju
no.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3m2LaI8IXmDxXTiuHKxDl6miuTWZKUlPkP1C7yg58GVvwNlQ/?c
ount=1234567890

> In the latest shiur...someone repeated the halacha against
> informing women of the death of a close relative
 and

See KSA 206 - 9, 10, 11 - http://www.kitzur.net/main.php?nk=1&;siman=206


I think the context of these halachos needs to be explored.  The halacha
that prefers the concealing of sad tidings is not applicable to family that
lives in the same neighboorhood or shtetl, since they would find out in any
case.

Up till recently, the state of travel and postal services was such that
family that lived in another town or country wasn't heard from for months or
even years at a time.  Given that reality, it might make sense not to
trouble someone and shut down his life for a week for someone he wouldn't
see or hear from for several months.  The story about the Alter concealing
the news of R Yehuda Leib Ruderman's death from his son is a case in point.
Given the distance, there was nothing the young YY Ruderman could have or
would have done for his family in any case.  There is a similar story about
the Netziv accidentally discovering that a brother had passed away.

However, where phone communication and travel allow for more immediate
comfort to other grieving relatives, there is more at stake.  Just imagine
the pain of an elderly woman who has lost a husband or CV a child, and can't
have her other chuldren nearby because nobody wanted to be "the bearer of
bad news."

That's how I understand these halachos.  I don't know if that fits in with
the shiur of the rov in question. But that's how I would interpret his
message.

Raffy Davidovich
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20081110/c0f5caf7/attachment-0001.htm>

At 10:12 AM 11/10/2008, you wrote:

>On Sun, Nov 09, 2008 at 05:06:01AM -0500, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
>: I once saw a beautiful teshuva regarding the halacha of the length of
>: aveilus and the seeming disparity between only 30 days for a child and
>: a year for parents.
>: When parents loses a child they will be mourning the rest of their
>: lives, therefore, in order not to exacerbate it, halacha has
>: compassionately made the (external) aveilus for only 30 days....
>
>I could argue the reverse. Since aveilus is cathartic, the person who
>feels the pain longer should be given the tool to feel like he has done
>justice to his feelings and the memory of the deceased. Someone who can
>get past it on their own more readily doesn't need to be given aveilus
>to help him work it out for as long of a period.
>
>Tir'u baTov!
>-Micha

Let me preface what I write by pointing out that I have lost a son. 
Avraham Chaim Shimshon, A"H, was killed in a car accident in 
December, 1991. He was 15 and half years old. I mention this to let 
you know that it is indeed true that when a parent "loses a child, 
they are indeed in mourning for the rest of their lives."

I recall hearing the following from Rav P. M. Teitz, ZT'L. He asked, 
"Why is it that the aveilus for a parent is a year whereas that for a 
child is only one month? After all, people are almost always more 
greatly affected by the loss of a child." He replied (and here I am 
paraphrasing) , "Everyone knows that his parents are going to pass 
away. This is the way of the world. Therefore, there may be a 
tendency for a child to 'downplay' the loss of a parent. Hence, the 
period of mourning is a year, so that the child does not 'forget.'. 
However, for a child there is never any 'downplaying' of the loss. 
Only a month is needed."

I have sat shiva 4 times - for a brother, a son and my parents. My 
personal experience is that Rav Teitz's observation is on the mark.

Yitzchok Levine 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20081110/925085b1/attachment-0001.htm>

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 11:02:01AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
: Let me preface what I write by pointing out that I have lost a son. 
: Avraham Chaim Shimshon, A"H, was killed in a car accident in 
: December, 1991. He was 15 and half years old. I mention this to let 
: you know that it is indeed true that when a parent "loses a child, 
: they are indeed in mourning for the rest of their lives."

(My heart goes out to you, as well as to R' Yisrael and Rn Chaya Gitl
Goldworm of Boro Park. They just lost a son in a similar manner. Eliyahu
Goldworm a"h was a 16 yr old talmid in the Lakewood Mesivta. He was hit
by a car yesterday and was niftar in the wee hours of the morning.

(I lost an infant, 18 yrs ago, and that was more pain than I knew how
to handle. There are still times I can't get through the 2nd berakhah
of Shemoneh Esrei without having to wipe my eyes and take deep breaths
to clear the feeling of a lump in my throat after "mechalkeil chaim
beCHESSED". To loose a teenager, who already became a person, whose
personality you learned... I can not imagine it. May no one else have
to live through such things.)

: I recall hearing the following from Rav P. M. Teitz, ZT'L. He asked, 
: "Why is it that the aveilus for a parent is a year whereas that for a 
: child is only one month? After all, people are almost always more 
: greatly affected by the loss of a child." He replied (and here I am 
: paraphrasing) , "Everyone knows that his parents are going to pass 
: away. This is the way of the world. Therefore, there may be a 
: tendency for a child to 'downplay' the loss of a parent. Hence, the 
: period of mourning is a year, so that the child does not 'forget.'. 
: However, for a child there is never any 'downplaying' of the loss. 
: Only a month is needed."

My reply to Cantor Wolberg's post questioned the assumed connection
between metzi'us and din. According to RYBS and others, the purpose of
aveilus is to give a constructive means of channeling the emotions of
mourning. If so, someone who is more likely to feel the emotions longer
should be given a longer aveilus, not shorter. Which, I suppose, is why
RYBS has to define the rest of the 12 months as being kibud av va'eim
more than aveilus itself.

One might say that there is little machloqes. RYBS might hold that aveilus
is catharsis, and the kibud av va'eim is in not downplaying the loss.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
mi...@aishdas.org        exactly the right measure of himself,  and
http://www.aishdas.org   holds a just balance between what he can
Fax: (270) 514-1507      acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham

 

        
        
        
        > In the latest shiur...someone repeated the halacha against
        > informing women of the death of a close relative
         and 
        
        See KSA 206 - 9, 10, 11 -
http://www.kitzur.net/main.php?nk=1&;siman=206
        
        
        I think the context of these halachos needs to be explored.  The
halacha that prefers the concealing of sad tidings is not applicable to
family that lives in the same neighboorhood or shtetl, since they would
find out in any case.
        
        Up till recently, the state of travel and postal services was
such that family that lived in another town or country wasn't heard from
for months or even years at a time.  Given that reality, it might make
sense not to trouble someone and shut down his life for a week for
someone he wouldn't see or hear from for several months.  The story
about the Alter concealing the news of R Yehuda Leib Ruderman's death
from his son is a case in point.  Given the distance, there was nothing
the young YY Ruderman could have or would have done for his family in
any case.  There is a similar story about the Netziv accidentally
discovering that a brother had passed away.
        
         =======================================================
         
        Thought experiment - someone knows that a close relative is ill
and unlikely to make it past the next month. He goes to a remote island
and instructs that no one contact him.  He returns 3 months later and
gets the shmua rechoka that his relative had died 2 months prior.  He
mourns as a shmua rechoka.  Has he done anything wrong? anything not
preferred?
        KT
        Joel Rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20081110/a7e91712/attachment-0001.htm>

On Sun, Nov 09, 2008 at 07:24:19PM -0500, Jonathan Baker wrote:
:                         And how many people today take seriously the
: "syndic" part of being a "sandek"?  As in, making sure the nimol gets
: some kind of Jewish education?

Here's an idiosyncratic case... When an Israeli couple adopts a non-Jewish
child, the BD legiyur (yes, that one) push the couple to make the father
the sandek. This way, the notion that the couple serve as apitropei BD
for the giyur of the child dovetails with that of sandek.

Implied, though, is the non-trivial conclusion that the concept of
sandek/syndic has anything to do with milah legiyur.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Please apply what it says below to whatever situations you feel it is 
applicable. The commentary is made on a pasuk from this week's Parsha.

In the event that the jpeg file does not come through in your email, 
you can read it at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/mishpat_tzedakah.pdf

YL

[It reads (transliteration of "tzedaqah" and "mishpat" mine):
    The following is from the new translation of RSRH's commentary on
    the Chumash -- Bereishis 18:17-19.

    The rule is that first one must do mishpat and only then tzedaqah.
    Tzedaqah can never atone for a breach of mishpat. To steal or deal
    dishonestly with one hand while dispensing charity with the other
    hand from wealth acquired by theft or in some other dishonest fashion
    is nothing but an abomination to God.

-micha]

Going through old teshuvot of R. Zilberstein I found one from 6 years
ago discussing the case of a woman (without children) who wanted
fertilty treatments even though they would pose a severe threat to her
life.

In his teshuva he quoted both R. Elyashiv and R. Wosner (personal
conversations) as agreeing that one should try and talk the woman out
of the treatments. However, if she insists on the treatment the doctor
can assist since the doctors actions are only indirect. Again the
possibilities of severe depression need to be taken into account

-- 
Eli Turkel


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 25, Issue 382
***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."