Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 423

Tue, 16 Dec 2008

• 1. Re: yosef (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: yosef (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Jewish Hyper-sensitivity (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: We should all be Hirschians (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Did RSRH Write LH about Shimon and Levi (Saul Mashbaum)
• 6. We should all be Hirschians (Yitzchok Levine)
• 7. Re: Horaas Shaah (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: City named after G-d (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: We should all be Hirschians (T6...@aol.com)
• 10. Re: We should all be Hirschians (Prof. Levine)
• 11. Re: Did RSRH Write LH about Shimon and Levi (T6...@aol.com)
• 12. Re: Sephardi-ism: some food for thought (Micha Berger)

Eli Turkel wrote:

> Why does the piyut on asarah harugei malchut say that these 10
> were the first capable of being a kapparah when the brothers were perfectly
> legitimate in their actions and did nothing wrong and don't need a kapparah

The piyut doesn't say anything of the sort.  The wicked king claims to
be exacting justice for the sale of Yosef, and says he would have killed
the shvatim themselves if they were still alive, but since they aren't
he'll kill these 10 as their proxies.  None of this is supposed to be
just or legitimate; the paytan is just showing the wickedness of the king,
that not only did he kill these 10 tzadikim, but he dressed the murder up
as some sort of mitzvah.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:32:08PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: The piyut doesn't say anything of the sort.  The wicked king claims to
: be exacting justice for the sale of Yosef, and says he would have killed
: the shvatim themselves if they were still alive, but since they aren't
: he'll kill these 10 as their proxies.  None of this is supposed to be
: just or legitimate; the paytan is just showing the wickedness of the king,
: that not only did he kill these 10 tzadikim, but he dressed the murder up
: as some sort of mitzvah.

Midrash Mishlei 1:13 does say they were a kapparah for the sale of
Yoseif. See also Pirqei deR' Eliezer (p' 38).

Rabbeinu Bachya says the 10 Yarugei Malchus were because Yoseif never
verbalized his mechilah of his brothers.

In http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol05/v05n124.shtml#15 , RYDubitzky
(CC-ed) transcribed his notes of a shiur by R Prof SZ Leiman. Among
the things RYD writes:
> [RDZL] noted that early countings of the harugei malkhut never count
> 10; it's only in the later sources that the number 10 is mentioned
> specifically. Also, the Torah at mekhirat Yosef only counts 9 brothers:
> recall, Yosef, Binyamin AND Reuven cannot be counted ...Yosef, because
> he was the victim, Binyamin and Reuven were both not there then. So the
> 10 rabbis could not possibly be exact punishment for that. Besides the
> geographical and chronological differences between the 10 rabbis that
> everyone is aware of. Nowhere in classical .Hazal is there a hint to
> the 10 serving as punishment/ atonement for Yosef: after all, "u-vanim
> lo yumtu al avot, ish be-.het'o yumatu" [Dev. 24:16], no vicarious
> punishment. Except, of course, "poked `avon avot" which is "midat HKBH"
> -- if the sons perpetuate the actual sins of the fathers. Surely the
> 10 rabbis were not guilty of selling Yosef. In fact, in various other
> places in .Hazal, these rabbis' "death scenes" are narrated and in each,
> a particular "sin," for which the rabbi himself ascribes his "meriting"
> death, is detailed. See, for example, Mekhilta (Mas. Nezikin, ch. 18);
> Tosefta BK 8:13; Avoda Zara 17b for some of their "iniquities" (very,
> very minor ones). In none of these cases, is there hinted punishment for
> the selling of Yosef. So, where did the paytan get his idea of "atoning"
> for the brothers' sale?

> The piyyut, of course, is based on the late midrash known as "Midrash
> Eleh Ezekrah/10 Haruge Malkhut"[found in *Bet ha-Midrash*, ed. A.
> Jellinek (3rd ed., Jerusalem: 1967), II:64-72; VI:19-35] (or both are
> based on a third as-yet unknown source). The piyyut and midrash are
> anti-Christological in nature:

> The midrash begins with a metaphor to the paritse ha-dor [a
> technical/code word for early Christians] after the .Hurban ...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
mi...@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:45:36PM +1100, Meir Rabi wrote:
: I wonder how we determine what is appropriate sensitivity LifNim MiShuRas
: HaDin and what is just bizarre behaviour?

Some of us are very literal minded. ("BH", I should add, the point is
useful in my case for making a parnasah by programming.) I tend to hear
both an idiom and its literal meaning. In fact, people can attest to my
horrible sense of humor punning on idioms because of this.

When I hear someone speak of the "crux" of the matter, the fact that he
just pointed out the centrality of an idea by comparing it to the Notzri
placement of the cross to thei worldview does "cross my mind". (Although
that's a different usage of the word, by parallel to crossing a street.)

I think that people with more normal minds shouldn't bother though,
because what one ends up doing is learning to associate more of the
world with Notzrut in order to avoid saying it.

(Kind of like parah adumah. For the person already in the parashah of
death it's a metaheir. For the kohein who otherwise would have no reason
to be thinking about death, it's a metamei.)

...
: Perhaps those who claim "Jewish sensitivity" are too sensitive and have
: distorted Halacha and are aberrant in their thinking. If we do not have
: halcha as an absolute standard then how can we ever determine what is
: properly sensitive or just plain old Chossid Shotah and Rasha Arum, people
: who certainly do not see themselves as doing anything but that which is
: right and proper in the eyes of HKBH

Going beyond standard is called perishus. It's the Ramban's "qedoshim
tihyu". Lauding shuras hadin and going no further isn't necessarily a
good idea.

And besides, maybe it's like tzeni'us, there should be an absolute das
Moshe, and a sociological das Yehudis?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You will never "find" time for anything.
mi...@aishdas.org        If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Charles Buxton
Fax: (270) 514-1507

We shouldn't all be any one thing.

I'll let it go on Avodah, but you're pushing this stuff a bit heavy
handed lately.

On Tue, December 16, 2008 2:51 pm, Yitzchok Levine wrote:
: ,Rav Eliyahu Meir Klugman, a Rosh Yeshiva and
: Moreh Hora?ah in Jerusalem and the author
: of   Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch -- Architect of
: Torah Judaism for the Modern World, Artscroll, 1966, points out the
: following:
:
: Clear knowledge and understanding of Rav Hirsch's
: views, insights and formulations can help one
: respond intelligently to most issues in Orthodox
: Jewish life. From Bnei Brak and Lakewood to
: Teaneck and Woodmere, from FFB to Baal Teshuva,
: from Chazon Ish devotee to modern Orthodox Jew,
: Rav Hirsch's teachings form an integral part of
: the world-view of the Torah Jew in the modern
: world, regardless of whether one takes an active role in that world or
: not.[i]
:
:
: [i] The Hirsch Chumash ? Listening to the Dvar
: Hashem, The World of Hirschian Teachings, An
: Anthology on the Hirsch Chumash and the Hashkafa
: of Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch, Published for the
: Rabbi Dr. Joseph Breuer Foundation, Feldheim, 2008, page 71.

RTKatz:
>>
It was already established back from the time of Rivkah ("Nish'alah es
pi hana'arah") that Jews do not marry off a daughter or a sister
without her consent.
>>
It is a common misconception that the cited phrase indicates that
Rivkah's consent was necessary for the proposed marriage. As is clear
from the Biblical text, the cited phrase relates to something else:
the proposal that Rivkah leave her father's house immediately, as
Eliezer requested, rather than remain in his house for a while, as her
family suggested.
On the contrary, the text does not indicate at all that Rivkah
consented to the proposed marriage.

Al pi halacha,  a father *may* marry off a minor daughter without her
consent. This well-known Talmudic principle  is the halacha, as stated
explicitly in Even HaEzer 37;1, without dispute. The Mechaber in 37;11
cites the statement in the g'mara that it is a mitzva for the father
not to exercise the right he has marry off his minor daughter. The
Rama there cites the opinion of Tosfot which justifies  marrying off
minor daughters without their consent, and concludes that this was the
common practice in Ashkenaz.
Thus, the statement " Jews do not marry off a daughter or a sister
without her consent" , when applied to a minor, is incorrect both in
theory and in widespread practice, up to modern times.

Saul Mashbaum

,Rav Eliyahu Meir Klugman, a Rosh Yeshiva and 
Moreh Hora?ah in Jerusalem and the author 
of   Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch -- Architect of 
Torah Judaism for the Modern World, Artscroll, 1966, points out the following:

Clear knowledge and understanding of Rav Hirsch's 
views, insights and formulations can help one 
respond intelligently to most issues in Orthodox 
Jewish life. From Bnei Brak and Lakewood to 
Teaneck and Woodmere, from FFB to Baal Teshuva, 
from Chazon Ish devotee to modern Orthodox Jew, 
Rav Hirsch's teachings form an integral part of 
the world-view of the Torah Jew in the modern 
world, regardless of whether one takes an active role in that world or not.[i]


[i] The Hirsch Chumash ? Listening to the Dvar 
Hashem, The World of Hirschian Teachings, An 
Anthology on the Hirsch Chumash and the Hashkafa 
of Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch, Published for the 
Rabbi Dr. Joseph Breuer Foundation, Feldheim, 2008, page 71.

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On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:41:19AM -0500, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: AIUI, Rav Schwab shifted, too. Originally he thought it was a hora'as sho'oh
: but later accepted TIDE as a lechatchila.

Original R' Schwab thought it was lechat-chilah. Then he asked R' Barukh
Ber if he should learn full time, or follow mussar avikha and TIDE. RBBL
was the one who convinced him that TIDE was a hora'as sha'ah. (RBBL's
argument is found in Birkas Shemu'el.)

Clearly RBBL didn't know German, and little of RSRH's writings were
available in Hebrew.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 02:54:48AM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: On the one hand, one could argue that it is merely part of the name
: of the place. On the other hand, it sure *looks* like G-d's name, given
: that it is spelled the same, is pronounced the same, and truth to tell,
: the place *was* named after Him.

: (Disclaimer: I must admit that beyond my curiosity, I do have an
: ulterior motive for asking this question. Namely: If "Beis El" is a new
: name and therefore chol, then there is certainly no problem with new
: names like Yisrael and Eliyahu, despite what some people might think.)

Or Sholom?

Beis-El is a hyphenated word, there is consistantly (AFAIK) a maqaf
between the tav and the alef. I'm not sure it's really different than
Shemu'el.

But I have a feeling Beis-El is actually named for AZ. It was called
Beis-El back when Avraham moved between it and Ai (Ber' 12:8). El was a
Canaanite god, so the name needn't have come from one of the Avos. As
for what the Avos called it, Avraham (ibid) "vayiqra besheim Hashem",
perhaps in contrast to El, like the way Bas-Par'oh renamed herself
Biyah. But it's again Beis-El when Yaaqov gets there (35:1). However,
then we are told "vayavo Yaaqov Luzah .. hi Beis-El" (v. 6) and then
Yaaqov renames it (v. 7) "Beis-El" (see Rashi, who uses parallels in
other pesuqim to show that "E-l Beis-El" doesn't consitute the name of
the place), but in (v. 14), the monument is consecrated in a place he
then again names "Beis El".

So what's going on? Yaaqov renamed Luz "Beis-El", and the other references
were al ha'asid? Or did he rededicate a site committed to the Kenaani
god El over to HQBH? (The latter would explains Yer'avam's choice of that
site for his cult.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
mi...@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

 
 
In a message dated 12/16/2008, Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu writes:

>>Rav Eliyahu Meir Klugman, a Rosh Yeshiva and Moreh Hora?ah  in Jerusalem 
and the author of   Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch  -- Architect of Torah Judaism 
for the Modern World, Artscroll, 1966,  points out the following:

Clear knowledge and understanding of  Rav Hirsch's views, insights and 
formulations can help one respond  intelligently to most issues in Orthodox Jewish 
life. From Bnei Brak and  Lakewood to Teaneck and Woodmere, from FFB to Baal 
Teshuva, from Chazon Ish  devotee to modern Orthodox Jew, Rav Hirsch's teachings 
form an integral part  of the world-view of the Torah Jew in the modern 
world, regardless of whether  one takes an active role in that world or not.[i]  <<



>>>>
It is true that at some level, "we are all  Hirschians now."   Every 
ArtScroll book that is written in English was  written by somebody who received a 
secular education.  The same is true of  the people who write for the 
English-language Yated.  The charedi community  may not consciously realize that they are 
actually Hirschians, but they  are.
 
I would like to point out that R' Krugman is totally charedi and lives in a  
charedi community in Yerushalayim.  True TIDE calls for close  identification 
with a dedicated, intensive Torah community.  





--Toby Katz
=============
Read *Jewish  World Review* at _http://jewishworldreview.com/_ 
(http://jewishworldreview.com/) 



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At 03:28 PM 12/16/2008, T6...@aol.com wrote:
>It is true that at some level, "we are all Hirschians now."   Every 
>ArtScroll book that is written in English was written by somebody 
>who received a secular education.  The same is true of the people 
>who write for the English-language Yated.  The charedi community may 
>not consciously realize that they are actually Hirschians, but they are.

Being a Hirschian is much, much more than having a secular education 
and working.  See Rabbi Danziger's brilliant article 
<http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/danziger_tide.pdf>Rav S. 
R. Hirsch - His TIDE Ideology  that I have posted at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/danziger_tide.pdf  This is, 
IMO, the best exposition of what TIDE is that I have read.

Just because one has a secular education, and advanced degree, works 
and learns regularly does not mean that he or she is a follower of 
TIDE as espoused by R. Danziger.
>
>I would like to point out that R' Krugman is totally charedi and 
>lives in a charedi community in Yerushalayim.  True TIDE calls for 
>close identification with a dedicated, intensive Torah community.
>

>As Rav Schwab pointed out, it says "Yafeh Talmud Torah Im Derech 
>Eretz." Rabbiner Hirsch, Rabbi Dr. Salomon Breuer, Rabbi Dr. Yosef 
>Breuer, Rav Schwab, Dr. Leo Levi, Dayan I. Grunfeld, etc. were all 
>strong proponents of "close identification with a dedicated, 
>intensive Torah community."


The subject of my message was "We should all be Hirschians,"  not "We 
are all Hirschians now." There is a big difference in my mind.

Yitzchok Levine 
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In a message dated 12/16/2008, saul.mashb...@gmail.com writes:


>>
It was already established back from the time of Rivkah  ("Nish'alah es
pi hana'arah") that Jews do not marry off a daughter or a  sister
without her consent.[--TK]
>>



>>It is a common misconception that the cited phrase indicates  that
Rivkah's consent was necessary for the proposed marriage. As is  clear
from the Biblical text, the cited phrase relates to something  else:
the proposal that Rivkah leave her father's house immediately  <<
 
>>>>>
Well if it is a common misconception, it is one  shared by Rashi, so I'm in 
good company.  Ber. 24:57 on the words,  "Nish'ala es pi hana'arah" -- Rashi 
there says, "Mikan she'ein masi'in es  ha'isha elah mida'atah."





--Toby Katz
=============
Read *Jewish  World Review* at _http://jewishworldreview.com/_ 
(http://jewishworldreview.com/) 



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On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 03:13:37PM -0500, Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
:> And if the process needs real AI, doesn't that mean it requires
:> subjectivity? Isn't the difference between real software and any
:> hypothetical "real AI" is that intelligence has an "I", a first person
:> viewpoint, a possibility of subjectivity? If you /need/ real intelligence,
:> doesn't that mean there is a subjective component?

: This is exactly the point I meant to reject, or at least question.  Do
: automated theorem provers do mathematics as well as actual
: mathematicians?  Is the mathematician's advantage his subjectivity, or
: his superior intellectual-cognitive sophistication?

Well, is "superior intellectual-coginitive sophistication" different
than just having a better algorithm than anything we have today?

To put it another way, I presumed a dichotomy:

Real AI (if possible) would have a first person perspective and therefore
be capable of subjectivity. That's "intelligence", artificial or not.
And the only means of being both non-random and non-deterministic.

Otherwise, it's an algorithm. And deterministic -- or include random
components (caused by "dice rolling" or timing oddities).

Yes, I am arguing that we want halakhah to be human not merely because
humans are better at determinism.

RRW said that he would prefer an objective system with more deterministic
results. I'm arguing that the ideal is a subjective system that includes
free will -- and thus intelligence, not algorithm of any complexity.

If someday we can create a much better computer and much better software
and do what I suggested without real intelligence, ie using algorithms
that give deteministic results that can be objectively detemined as
"right", I would still consider this inferior to a creative partnership
with the A-lmighty.

FWIW, the Mathemetician's greater advantage is probably his ability to go
beyond the algorithmic manipulation of syntactic symbols and understand
semantics. This lets him leap over things that would take an infinite
regress in software. The non-ending algorithm can be aborted because a
person can understand where things are headed. This in turn has to do
with being able to watch one's own thoughts in a self-referential loop.
All of which boil down to subjectivity. But now we're ready to start a
thread about the nature of AI -- if it could be made on topic for Avodah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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