Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 3

Sun, 04 Jan 2009

• 1. Re: Age of "Ancient" Minhagim (Zev Sero)
• 2. "Ancient" Minhagim (Harvey Benton)
• 3. Re: woman reading a ketuba (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 4. Re: woman reading the ketuba (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 5. woman reading a ketubah (Eli Turkel)
• 6. woman reading the ketuba (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: Woman reading a ketuba (Rabbi Y. H. Henkin)
• 8. Re: Women reading the ketuba (Meir Shinnar)
• 9. Re: Women reading a ketuba (Rich, Joel)
• 10. Women Reading theKetubah (Joseph Kaplan)
• 11. Re: Age of "Ancient" Minhagim (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 12. tehillim (Eli Turkel)
• 13. Vay'chi WE ARE ALL ALIVE! (Cantor Wolberg)
• 14. TODAY IN HISTORY 8th of TEVET (Cantor Wolberg)
• 15. Re: Women Reading theKetubah (Rich, Joel)

kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:

> I too don't like the idea that certain recent "minhagim" are perceived as
> being ancient. But that is the reality, and it won't change easily.
> 
> Examples for my generation including the wearing of a kittel at a chupah,

How "recent" is this?


> or putting a silver atarah on one's tallis.

This one goes back a while. 210 years ago it was widespread enough that
it made sense for Chabad leaders to require all Chabadniks to sell their
atoros to raise money for the effort to get the Alter Rebbe out of prison.  
So it must be considerably older than that.

-- 
Zev Sero                                     May the light of Chanukah
z...@sero.name                                brighten your life

R. Kenneth Miller wrote:

R"n Toby Katz wrote:
> Well as you know, I do not look kindly on ancient minhagim
> that are less than thirty years old. Get back to me when
> women have been reading ketubot at weddings for a hundred
> years or me, and I'll rethink it.  Right  now, I totally do
> not believe that this is an "eilu ve'eilu" issue or a
> matter of different minhagim in different communities,

R. Micha Berger wrote:
How big of a breach
can mimetic halakhah absorb and still survive to guide us.

HB: 
In general, throughout history, what has guided the Jewish Nation in it's
adoption and eventual acceptance of new Minhagim??  The Arizal had many
innovations, as did Chasidus.  Speaking Yiddish (though probably not a
Minhag) and considering it a Heilige Language does not go back to Har
Sinai.	Kenneth Miller mentioned silver Ataras on Taleisim, etc.

How are we supposed to know what is a valid practice, and what is a Minhag Shtus?  Do we only find out about a Minhag's validity after a 100 years of its use??

Good Shabbas and Go Israel!!

> From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] woman reading a ketuba
> Micha Berger wrote:
>
>> The flaw is that if we really felt this line of reasoning, we wouldn't
>> give the job out as a kibud. Mesadeir qedushin has to be qualified. The
>> berakhos should be from people whose berakhos are more likely to
>> matter. So giving these out are compliments, and thus kibudim.
>> But reading the kesuvah?
>
> The kesuvah-reader also has to be qualified - he has to be able to read
> Aramaic without breaking his teeth.  Unfortunately, it seems that people
> are not aware of this requirement, and too often give it to someone who,
> however good he is at rabbonus or teaching, is unqualified for this job.


It is absolutely true that the reader of the Ketuba has to be qualified. 
But not just with the ability to read Aramaic as RZS mentions.

Rav Yaakov Ariel recommends that the Ketuba only be given to a rabbi 
qualified to pasken on the Ketuba.  There are a number of other Chief Rabbis 
of cities in Israel who do not allow others to read the Ketuba when they are 
Mesader Kedushin. This is especially important nowadays, when many couples 
bring their own "hand made", decorated Ketuba - not realizing that there may 
be a problem of Nusach.

While the Mesader Kedushin is supposed to catch any problems prior to the 
chuppa, sometimes they don't read it through, and this rabbi who reads the 
ketuba can save the couple a lot of problems in the future.

That said, one member noted that at a wedding where a woman read the ketuba, 
she was the kallah's teacher, and perhaps she was indeed knowledeable about 
ketuba so that this too wouldn't have been a problem.

Shoshana L. Boublil

R. Micha Berger wrote:

<The flaw is that if we really felt this line of reasoning, we wouldn't
give the job out as a kibud. Mesadeir qedushin has to be qualified. The
berakhos should be from people whose berakhos are more likely to matter. So
giving these out are compliments, and thus kibudim. But reading the
kesuvah?>

R. Zev Sero responded:

<The kesuvah-reader also has to be qualified - he has to be able to read
Aramaic without breaking his teeth.  Unfortunately, it seems that people
are not aware of this requirement, and too often give it to someone who,
however good he is at rabbonus or teaching, is unqualified for this
job.>

     In Europe, reading the k'suba was a job, not a kibbud. The rov of the
     community would be m'sader kiddushin, and the shammes would read the
     k'suba.  In Israel today, for the most part, it is considered the
     least of the kibbudim under the chuppa.

     It is said that the reading became the kibbud it is in the US because
     of R. Moshe Feinstein, who would ask for it if he was not m'sader
     kiddushin.  If true, I am convinced it was for the reason alluded to
     by RZS: he couldn't stand the butchering of it by those unfamiliar
     (and from my experience, this includes some rashei yeshiva and
     rabbonim).

EMT

 

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<<I do not believe that any  bride
would "honor" a woman with the reading of the ketuba without a  self-conscious
awareness that she is doing something that is pushing the  envelope.>>

I strongly object to this constant reading motives into another person.
The woman who read the ketuba is the head of the local women's
learning group MATAN (and yes extremely covers her hair and is very
modest) and the bride knows her and appreciated her for many years,
It certainly was the first time I saw the person reading the ketuba
giving the bride
a big hug.
The mesader kiddushin was very supportive as was the vasr majority of the people
in the audience.


-- 
Eli Turkel

: The kesuvah-reader also has to be qualified - he has to be able to read
: Aramaic without breaking his teeth..>>

In this case the woman involved gives shiurim in gemara and had absolutely
no problems reading the ketuba
I am sure several of the women on this list could easily read a ketuba

-- 
Eli Turkel

In Bnei Banim vol. 3 no. 27 (p. 96).
Accessible at hebrewbooks.org,  (vol. 1 # 20021. vol. 2 # 20022, vol. 3 # 20024, vol. 4 # 20023)
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RMB
Mah bein "one must not run after Kibbudim" and tzeni'us?

 >I think RHS's whole point is that they are identical. That when we  
speak
 >of kol kivudah bas melekh penimah and tzeni'us, we're speaking about
 >women lacking mitzvos that force that tzeni'us to be routinely  
overriden
 >by another chiyuv.

 >And I think the pasuq I just cited, which is the usual one WRT women  
and
 >tzeni'us (beyond the sense of covering ervah), is very telling. It's
 >explicitly about kibud.

The problem with RHS's tshuva is that it can be read in either of two  
ways - both of which are problematic, albeit for different reasons.

If one takes the maximalist understanding (that RMB seems to have)  -  
that giving public kibud to a woman is a problem because of kol kvuda  
bat melekh - which is not overridden by other chiyuvim  - the  
fundamental issue in the MO community (including the YU community) is  
why is this kibbud any different than any other public kibbud given to  
women - and in the MO community, as distinct from the haredi (I don't  
know the standard in hardal), it is quite common to give women public  
kibbudim and for them to give speeches in public - which is a form of  
public kibbud.  Eg, at a haredi yeshiva dinner honoring Mr and Mrs X,  
only Mr X will actually speak - while in a MO dinner, both will speak,  
and women give public lectures all the time  The question is why is  
reading the ketuba fundamentally different - because, after all, as  
RHS acknowledges, it has no technical legal status - and the sole  
issue then seems to be the public role for women.

Now, that is a point of argument of the MO  with the haredi community  
(going !15-20 years ago, there was a well reported speech (I believe  
republished in the JO) by rav Svei, responding to the Pell grant  
scandal - asking why this scandal occured, and saying that the problem  
was that women gave public divre torah - and the undermining of tzniut  
led to moral corruption).  RMB understands to RHS to be making  
essentially a similar argument.  However, this argument has been  
rejected by the MO and YU community - and I believe was already  
rejected by RYBS - so it is difficult to make that argument here.

A more minimalist reading is that there are certain kibbudim that one  
should intrinsically decline, but someone has to  do them.  However,  
as a practical matter, no one approaches these kibbudim in this  
fashion (I haven't heard of anyone going to their rav saying, I am  
sorry that someone has to read the ketuba..) which makes this reading  
seem disingenuous, at the least.  Yes, there is a problem with someone  
insisting it is their right to a kibbud - but accepting the kibbud  
that is offered??

There is another problem with all of this shitta, because, contra RHS,  
there is a hiyyuv - to be mesameach the hattan and kalla - and if it  
is their simcha and oneg that woman X (and not rabbi Y)  should read  
the ketuba, why should the woman refuse??


RMB writes about the slippery slope and being poretz geder -  but one  
has to be careful about the meaning of poretz geder - because there  
actually has to be a geder.  Recall the Seride Esh's tshuva about bat  
mitzva, and the question of when we say lo ra'inu eyno ra'aya - and  
when we can say that lo ra'inu is a ra'aya.   WRT to reading the  
ketuba, one hundred years ago, the situation in Eastern Europe (as per  
the aruch hashulchan and the hafetz hayim) was that few women knew  
enough Hebrew to bench, say mezuman, or even daven shemone esre daily  
- so reading the ketuba was not in question.

Again, the fundamental question that has to be answered is what is the  
appropriate halachic response to the different social status and roles  
of women today.  Some responses are halachically problematic, others  
might be the slippery slope, but there are multiple slippery slopes -  
the slippery slope to egalitarianism, but also the slippery slope to  
the taliban - and the slippery slope towards ossification and denying  
that we are a torat chaim - that the halacha deals with the world as  
it actually is    Perhaps the greatest danger is the slippery slope of  
using halacha to further one's own social and communal agenda -  
whether to be machmir or mekil

Meir Shinnar

 

I want to pose the possibility, though, that "slippery slope" arguments
aren't beyond halakhah, but actually reflect ikkar hadin. Doesn't the
issur against being a "poreitz geder" mean "don't start down slippery
slopes"?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
This would be a worthwhile research project but if you look at rashi on
avodah zara 27b (uporetz geder) it seems to be defined based on being
over on divrei chachamim, not on doing something new that was not
practiced but was never banned.

KT
Joel Rich
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Thank you.

RMB argued: "RHS is arguing it's a "necessary evil" -- someone has to  
violate personal
tzeni'us for the community's greater good. People should hope it's not
them."

I've been a member of the O community for more than a few decades and  
have davened in all types of different O minyanim and been to  
hundreds of O weddings running from LWO to the most yeshivish or  
Chassidish.  And it's my perception that almost no one believes that  
being a shli'ach tzibur or, indeed, reading the ketubah at a wedding,  
is a "necessary evil."  Not rabbis, not laypeople, not anyone.  It  
seems to me that if we truly believed this, then a shul without a  
permanent chazan would have only one or two people who sacrifice  
themselves to lead the davening so as to save the others from this  
supposed "necessary evil."  And that at weddings, there would be  
someone from the caterer or the band to read the ketubah so as to  
save the rabbanim and RYs from this supposed "necessary evil." But my  
perception is that we believe that these are kibuddim -- that is,  
honors -- and we -- laypeople and religious leaders alike -- feel  
good about being so honored.  That people who live by halacha and  
interpret halacha are telling us, by their actions, that "necessary  
evil" is not a factor. Thus, the only conclusion that I can reach is  
that Micha's understanding of RHS is wrong or, if correct, then, with  
respect, RHS's analysis of this issue is not correct.

If my perceptions are wrong then my conclusion would also probably be  
wrong. Thus, I wonder if anyone has had a different experience; that  
is, have they seen actions which demonstrate that we truly believe  
this "necessary evil" idea.  But please note that I'm speaking about  
reality, not what's discussed in an ivory tower, beit medresh or  
email list.  I'm looking for proof of what the members and the  
leaders of our O community REALLY think about this issue and, and  
perhaps more importantly, how they act upon that belief.  How they  
think and how they act is, I believe, an important factor in  
determining what our haskafa -- and the halacha -- truly is.

Joseph Kaplan

On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 19:35:49 GMT
"kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com> wrote:

> In the thread "Woman reading a ketuba", R"n Toby Katz wrote:
> > Well as you know, I do not look kindly on ancient minhagim
> > that are less than thirty years old. Get back to me when

...

> I too don't like the idea that certain recent "minhagim" are perceived as being ancient. But that is the reality, and it won't change easily.

The widespread custom of the bride and groom not seeing each other for
the week before the wedding is apparently of quite recent origin.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

In our shul we are dividing up sefer tehillim among the congregants to be said
on behalf of the soldiers
I am not sure how feasible this is on avodah but as a minimum everyone should
choose one perek of his own to say each day

-- 
Eli Turkel

Next week's Torah reading is named Vay'chi ? ?And he lived? ? although  
it speaks of Yaakov?s death.
As the events of the reading demonstrate, Yaakov?s life was one of  
connection to God that transcended
material settings. And since he shared this quality with his  
descendants, it was perpetuated beyond his mortal lifetime.
As our Sages say: ?Yaakov, our ancestor, did not die. As his  
descendants are alive, he is alive.?

Excerpted from Chabad
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Torah translated into Greek (246 BCE)

In a second attempt to translate the Torah into Greek (after an  
unsuccessful attempt 61 years earlier), the ruling Greek-Egyptian  
emperor Ptolemy gathered 72 Torah sages, had them sequestered in 72  
separate rooms, and ordered them to each produce a translation. On the  
8th of Tevet of the year 3515 from creation (246 BCE) they produced 72  
corresponding translations, including identical changes in 13 places  
(where they each felt that a literal translation would constitute a  
corruption of the Torah's true meaning). This Greek rendition became  
known as the Septuagint, "of the seventy" (though later versions that  
carry this name are not believed to be true to the originals). Greek  
became a significant second language among Jews as a result of this  
translation. During Talmudic times, Tevet 8 was observed by some as a  
fast day, expressing the fear of the detrimental effect of the  
translation. 

> [I]'s my perception that almost no one believes that being a shli'ach
> tzibur or, indeed, reading the ketubah at a wedding, is a "necessary
> evil."  Not rabbis, not laypeople, not anyone.  It seems to me that if
> we truly believed this, then a shul without a permanent chazan would
> have only one or two people who sacrifice themselves to lead the
> davening so as to save the others from this supposed "necessary evil."
> And that at weddings, there would be someone from the caterer or the
> band to read the ketubah so as to save the rabbanim and RYs from this
> supposed "necessary evil." ...

> Joseph Kaplan

1.Ralph Waldo Emerson - "What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear
what you say". Having said that - at least we should be reminded once
in a while what our aspirational vision should be.

2.Due to my total lack of musical ability, requests for me to be the
shatz are limited to weekdays and psukei dzimra. Over the years I have
asked the shailah twice about refusing till the 3rd request. The first
response was that this no longer applies when a gabbai asks (or when
it's already past the posted start time - due to tircha dtziburra)
The second, many years later, was to teach the gabboim the din.

KT
Joel Rich



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