Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 9

Mon, 12 Jan 2009

• 1. Re: 10 B'Teves on Shabbos (Richard Wolpoe)
• 2. Re: Psak Computer (Richard Wolpoe)
• 3. Re: answering Amen to various brachot (Richard Wolpoe)
• 4. Re: Maoz Tsur (Richard Wolpoe)
• 5. Re: Kaddesh after Kiddush Levana (Richard Wolpoe)
• 6. Re: Returning Madoff's tainted money (Richard Wolpoe)
• 7. Re: "Ancient" Minhagim (T6...@aol.com)
• 8. Re: "Ancient" Minhagim (Harvey Benton)
• 9. psak halacha (Eli Turkel)
• 10. maps (Eli Turkel)
• 11. Re: 10 B'Teves on Shabbos (Danny Schoemann)
• 12. Re: Torah Geography & Dream Brachos (Gilad Field)
• 13. Re: "Ancient" Minhagim (Rich, Joel)
• 14. Re: psak halacha (Rich, Joel)
• 15. Re: maps (Rich, Joel)

On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

> Richard Wolpoe wrote:
>
>  I think this is another perfect mis-understanding.
>>
>  But had they consuled SNOPES.COM <http://SNOPES.COM> as you did it is
>> obviously false - a pashut Kal vachomer from tisha b'av.
>>
>
> Tish'a B'av doesn't have a "b'etzem hayom hazeh".
>
> --
> Zev Sero



   1. See Tur Orach Chaim 550 [even 10 Teves is NOT observed on Shabbos but
   is deferred].]
   2. See BY 3 in the new edition of Tur.
      1. See BY's quote of Rashi whic h h e pretty much uses Tisha B'av as
      kal vachomer to the other Ta'[aniyos [as I did above]
   3. See BY's rejection of Abudarham's Be'etzem "v'lot yadati minayin lo
   ze.
   4. Se The By's point re: Friday re: 10 Teves making it unique [as I
   already pointed out.]

Re: how late one fast see:

   1.  Tur 662,
   2.  BY sham [see quote of Smak]
   AhS who asserts that ANY fast is only until sundown [citing a Ran and
   others] when it is not even Erev Shabbos involved.

WADR to Abudarham, the other fasts are mei'ikar hadin only optoinal next to
Tisha B'av.  [see tur  Orach Chaim 550 & 551]

550: Vhoidna ratzu lehisanos...
551: Tishab Ba'v ein BD yachol levatlo [mashma the others YES]

The aforemntioned K"vCh is indeed a slamdunk for virtually every poseik
aside from Abudarham perhaps.


-- 
Kol Tuv - Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090111/0c71b160/attachment-0001.htm>

On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Rich, Joel <JR...@sibson.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> BTW we once had a discussion of a automatic psak computer. Such a
> computer of course could not account for such extra-halachic issues
>
> --
> Eli Turkel
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> I think I would disagree  in theory in 99% of the cases- just need a
> bigger computer and better fuzzy logic/AI programmers and poskim who can
> detail how they reach a decision. Of course it's hard to detail how you
> would react to a black swan.
> KT
> Joel Rich
>

I wouldn't want a computer to spit out a psak.
but I would like it to present the relvant factoids related to a p'sak

For example the Abudarham's point re: 10th of Teves has been rejected by the
BY.  That fact must be noted. It's not jsut that Rashi and Rambam ot
Abuarhma, it's that the BY sets it aside himself!

The various postings omitted this factoid, and are somehow rehabilitating
the Abudarham as something more than what apperas to be a patently rejected
da'as yachid.  A computer wouldn't do that.


-- 
Kol Tuv - Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090111/dc78dcf1/attachment-0001.htm>

On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Shlomo Pick <pic...@mail.biu.ac.il> wrote:

>  In an Areivim post concerning the issue of answering Amen I wrote the
> following:
>
> Rav teitz's ruling seems to be a da'at yachid only applicable to Elizabeth
>
> (then?) and it would appear that what rav teitz did appears to be
> applicable ONLY to his own town,
>
> Bebirchot haTorah
>
>
>
> Shlomo Pick
>
>
>
>
>

IIRC at Ner Israel they wer no so makpid about ba'alei Tefillah using Modern
Israeli pronunciation, but they WERE makpid on Kri'as hatorah - even year
'round not only Zachor.

But that was in the 1960's. I don't now about today.


-- 
Kol Tuv - Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090111/c924ef04/attachment-0001.htm>

On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Michael Poppers
<MPopp...@kayescholer.com>wrote:

>
>
>
> > So why isn't 'Chashmanim' also with a kometz? (Presumably 'kankanim' with
> a
> pasach is OK.). <
> See T'hilim 68:32. Methinks the real Q is whether to say "hash'manim" with
> a patach (to match "Chashmanim") or with a qamatz (as per proper diqduq) ;-)
> (guess what we, and KAJ, do). (Yes, "qanqanim" is w/ a
> pasach[-pasach-chiriq].)
>
> A guten Shabbes and all the best from
> --Michael Poppers via RIM pager
>
Baer Avodas Yisroel addresses this.  I would consider it poetic license.


-- 
Kol Tuv - Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090111/47d3d3b9/attachment-0001.htm>

On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 2:56 PM, Elazar M. Teitz <r...@juno.com> wrote:

> Thus, if a person was studying g'mara alone, there is no justification for
> then gathering a minyan for him to say kaddish,
>
>
> EMT
>

Even leta'ameich if they added Rabbi Chananya be Akashya Omeri.... AFTER the
Minyan arrived what is the harm to THEN say kaddish?

E.G. if a Dar Yomi Hevra has a few people before Michan and then a minyan
comes why not say divrei aggedita and a kaddish derabbanan?


-- 
Kol Tuv - Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090111/b6f7f916/attachment-0001.htm>

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Saul Stokar <ssto...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know of a halachic precedent that would require those who made
> money by investing in Madoff's fund to return some or all of their
> ill-gotten gains to those who lost money? After all, if you purchase a
> stolen item (even unwittengly) from a thief (before ye'ush i.e. before the
> owner abandons hope of getting it back) you have to return the item to its
> owner. Clearly there are differences between a stolen object and an
> investment with one of Madoff's funds (e.g. the investment was given to be
> used (lehotza'a mitna) rather than as a deposit (pikadon)). None the less,
> due to the pyramidal nature of the (alleged) fraud, the profits of the early
> investors come directly from the pockets of the latecomers.
>
> Saul Stokar
> Raanana, Israel
>

Lich'ora keeping Madoff Profits is mamash "choleik im a haganav" albeit
beshoggeig.

-- 
Kol Tuv - Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090111/30d6f8e9/attachment-0001.htm>

Re: Avodah Digest, Vol 26, Issue 3 dated 2 Jan. '09
 
My father once commented to me that had he lived at the time of the Vilna  
Gaon, he would never have become a chossid.  His basic posture towards  anything 
new was similar to that of the Chasam Sofer -- "Chadash assur  min haTorah."  
Chassidus did stand the test of time and since his  father and grandfather 
had been Gerrer chassidim, my father was too.  (He  also told me that his 
grandfather -- or maybe great-grandfather, I'm not sure --  became a chossid because 
among the non-chassidim, he was the last frum person in  his town and there 
was nowhere else to go.  My father said that chassidus  saved yahadus in 
Poland.)
 

--Toby Katz
==========


--------------------  


Message:  2
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009




> Well as you know, I do not  look kindly on ancient minhagim
> that are less than thirty years old.  Get back to me when
> women have been reading ketubot at weddings for a  hundred
> years or more...[--TK]
R. Micha Berger  wrote:
>>How big of a breach
>>can mimetic halakhah absorb  and still survive to guide us.
 R' Harvey Benton _harveybenton@yahoo.com_ (mailto:harveyben...@yahoo.com)  
wrote:





>>In general, throughout history, what has  guided the Jewish Nation in its 
adoption and eventual acceptance of new  Minhagim??  The Arizal had many 
innovations, as did Chasidus.   Speaking Yiddish (though probably not a Minhag) and 
considering it a Heilige  Language does not go back to Har Sinai.  Kenneth 
Miller mentioned silver  Ataras on Taleisim, etc.

How are we supposed to know what is a valid  practice, and what is a Minhag 
Shtus?  Do we only find out about a  Minhag's validity after a 100 years of its 
 use??





**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?
redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%2
6bcd=De
cemailfooterNO62)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090111/9459ac13/attachment-0001.htm>

I mean no disrespect to your father, but other jewish practices and sects
have also survived the test of time - including xians and karaites.  That
doesnt mean they are legitimate.  What if chabads errant beliefs and
practices stand for CV another 100 years?  Would that legitimize them?	I
feel that my original ? still stands - ie what principles, halachic or
otherwise, do we have to guide us when new practices arise?  Kol Tuv, HB

T6...@aol.com wrote: 
>  Re: Avodah Digest, Vol 26, Issue 3 dated 2 Jan. '09 
>  ? 
>  My father once commented to me that had he lived at the time of the Vilna 
> Gaon, he would never have become a chossid.? His basic posture towards 
> anything new was similar to that?of the Chasam Sofer -- "Chadash assur 
> ?min haTorah."? Chassidus did stand the test of time and since his 
> father and grandfather had been Gerrer chassidim, my father was too.? (He 
> also told me that his grandfather -- or maybe great-grandfather, I'm not sure -- 
> became a chossid because among the non-chassidim, he was the last frum person in 
> his town and there was nowhere else to go.? My father said that chassidus 
> saved yahadus in Poland.) 
>  ? 
>  --Toby Katz ========== -------------------- 
>  ? 
>  Message: 
>   2 Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 > Well as you know, I do not 
>   look kindly on ancient minhagim > that are less than thirty years old. 
>   Get back to me when > women have been reading ketubot at weddings for a 
>   hundred > years or more...[--TK] R. Micha Berger 
>   wrote: >>How big of a breach >>can mimetic halakhah absorb 
>   and still survive to guide us. 
>  ?R' Harvey Benton harveyben...@yahoo.com ?wrote: 
>  ? >>In general, throughout history, what has 
>   guided the Jewish Nation in its adoption and eventual acceptance of new 
>   Minhagim??? The Arizal had many innovations, as did Chasidus.? 
>   Speaking Yiddish (though probably not a Minhag) and considering it a Heilige 
>   Language does not go back to Har Sinai.? Kenneth Miller mentioned silver 
>   Ataras on Taleisim, etc. How are we supposed to know what is a valid 
>   practice, and what is a Minhag Shtus?? Do we only find out about a 
>   Minhag's validity after a 100 years of its 
> use?? A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.  See yours in just 2 easy steps!

<<I think I would disagree  in theory in 99% of the cases- just need a
bigger computer and better fuzzy logic/AI programmers and poskim who can
detail how they reach a decision.>>

If the psak depends on the community then the computer would have to
account for that.
AFAIK fuzzy logic relies on probability and so one has a probabilistic psak.

I always remember the question of whether one can talk out a sefer
torah for hakafot
shneot in EY at the end of Shemini Azeret. I saw one psak that allows
it since it is
a kiddush hashem for everyone to dance with the torah. I saw a second psak that
prohibited it because it is a chillul hashem to allow everyone to
dance with the Torah.

Obviously these are 2 poskim with different attitudes to including the
general populace
and not just rabbonim or even shomrei mitzvot in dancing with the torah.
How could one put that into a computer program?

-- 
Eli Turkel

<<You often see Rashi explaining that this or that city or mountain or plain
is north of this or east of that, based on pesukim.  You can tell that he  had
to figure out the geography of E'Y (and of Egypt and Bavel) by working it  out
from Tanach.  It's possible that he did have maps but likely that  he did not.>>

Maps in the modern sense of the word did not exist in Rashi's day (see
for example
the Medeba map). Hence, as Zev points out Amoraim and certainly Rishonim
made mistakes in the geography of Israel. As Toby points out Rashi's knowledge
of geography is based on Tanach and the Talmud which were not always clear.

Thus we see that Ramban writes that he changed his mind about certain
topics once he actually
made it to EY and toured the country

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Danny Schoemann <doni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In response to one of my Halocho-a-day posts kitzur.com/7zq2
> (http://halocho.blogspot.com/2009/01/halocho-244-fasting-o
> n-shabbat-is.html)
> people keep on writing in informing me that if 10 B'Teves were to
> [theoretically] fall on Shabbos, we would fast.
>
> Over the years I've heard this from various people.
>
> Where does this Halocho come from? The SA in OC 550:3 says "if these 4
> fasts fall on Shabbos that are deferred to Sunday."

In the Tevet 5769 volume of Kulmus [Hebrew ed. Comes with the weekly
Mishpacha magazine) on page 25-26 they discuss this. (I have not
checked sources - simply transcribing it.)

Apparently the earliest written source we have for this is the
Abudraham (Seder Tefilas Hataniyos, D"H V'Ato Efaresh):  Even if 10
B'Tevet could fall on Shabbos we wouldn't defer it since it says in
Yechezkel (24:2) B'Etzem Hayom Hazeh.

He says the source is Teshuvas Hageonim - though we have no trace of
such a Teshuva.
[Note 14: Though it seems to be a known early Halacha since the
Karaites fast on Shabbos-10-B'Tevet (as their calendar is not fixed)]

The Bet Yosef  (OC 550. D"H UM"Sh) is very surprised at this Abudraham
and says "I don't know where he got this from".

The Kneset Hagedola (551) explains this surprise; how could the
Abudraham rely on something that has no explicit source in Chazal,
since we can't invent Drashot by ourselves.

This also contradicts a Rashi in Megila (5a): 9 B'Av, 17 Tamuz and 10
B'Tevet are deferred to Sunday.

The Rambam (Ta'anis 5:5) paskens like Rashi, as well as the SA.

The popular Zemer of the Ibn Ezra "Ki Eshmro Shabbos" also clearly
states that we don't fast on Shabbos except for Yom Kipour Avoni.

The Shut Shoel Maishiv (Ed. 1, Vol. 3, OC 179) and the Or Sameach
(Rambam, Taniyos 5:6) try to reconcile the Abudraham with "everybody
else", the latter by trying to explain that since 10 B'Tevet falls on
Friday - and we have to fast until nightfall - so we essentially are
fasting 10 B'Tevet during part of Shabbos.


- Danny

>On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 10:56 PM, Moshe Y. Gluck <mgl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Teshuvah is in Pri HaSadeh Cheilek 2:107. He doesn't explain the
> Hava Amina, but see YD 210:2 and YD 334:35 where things >that
> happen in dreams do have Halachic significance.

I thought about that as well.  But being put in cherem in a dream is
different  - because it is viewed as  siman from shamayim that Hashem
is not happy with you. (and the Gra explains the opinion that taking a
neder in a dream is not binding (even though the SA paskens like the
other opinion) based on the fact that there is no such heavenly sign
in that case.

also interesting is the radbaz mentioned in the pischei teshuva - that
if you dream you took a neder to pay back a loan on a certain day - it
is viewed  as a sign from heaven that you should take care of this
mitzvah and pay back the loan quickly.  again we see that when it is
seen as a heavenly sign it is binding.

I don't think that could be applied to brachos as well.

>You often see Rashi explaining that this or that city or mountain or plain is north of this or east of that, based on pesukim.

that is true.  but the amoraim did travel back and forth between bavel
and ey, so they certainly had first hand knowledge of the travel
direction. Rashi, on the other hand never saw EY - so he may not have
had first hand knowledge of the geography or topography.

Gilad

 
 
 
My father once commented to me that had he lived at the time of the
Vilna Gaon, he would never have become a chossid.  His basic posture
towards anything new was similar to that of the Chasam Sofer -- "Chadash
assur  min haTorah."  Chassidus did stand the test of time and since his
father and grandfather had been Gerrer chassidim, my father was too.
(He also told me that his grandfather -- or maybe great-grandfather, I'm
not sure -- became a chossid because among the non-chassidim, he was the
last frum person in his town and there was nowhere else to go.  My
father said that chassidus saved yahadus in Poland.)
 

--Toby Katz
==========

-------------------- 
 
This is one of the great conundrums (to me) of the halachik process -
the earlier ones do something that at best is talui at that time on
future results (imho that is the best case description) and that kashers
the result for later generations (and retroactively for the first
generation)?
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20090112/974f0ab3/attachment-0001.htm>

 


I always remember the question of whether one can talk out a sefer torah
for hakafot shneot in EY at the end of Shemini Azeret. I saw one psak
that allows it since it is a kiddush hashem for everyone to dance with
the torah. I saw a second psak that prohibited it because it is a
chillul hashem to allow everyone to dance with the Torah.

Obviously these are 2 poskim with different attitudes to including the
general populace and not just rabbonim or even shomrei mitzvot in
dancing with the torah.
How could one put that into a computer program?

--
Eli Turkel
_______________________________________________

The same way a preference towards needs of the tzibbur vs. individual
etc. - I assume this would be one of a number of variables that would
need to be adjustable to mimic any particular posek.
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

 

Maps in the modern sense of the word did not exist in Rashi's day (see
for example the Medeba map). Hence, as Zev points out Amoraim and
certainly Rishonim made mistakes in the geography of Israel. As Toby
points out Rashi's knowledge of geography is based on Tanach and the
Talmud which were not always clear.

Thus we see that Ramban writes that he changed his mind about certain
topics once he actually made it to EY and toured the country

--
Eli Turkel
_______________________________________________

Does anyone dispute this position? If not, how is it explained by those
who hold the no errors in mesora theory, that the mesora (our
forefathers lived there) was lost?
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.



------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 26, Issue 9
*************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."