Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 24

Thu, 29 Jan 2009

• 1. Re: Shatz out loud (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 2. Re: Shatz out loud (Micha Berger)
• 3. Permissible Flattery (Harvey Benton)
• 4. Re: torah lishma (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 5. Re: torah lishma (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 6. Re: Permissible Flattery (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Shatz out loud (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 8. Re: shatz saying things out loud (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 9. ga'al yisrael (Shlomo Pick)
• 10. Re: shatz saying things out loud (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Permissible Flattery -title GAON (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 12. Re: shatz saying things out loud (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 13. Ga-ahl Yisroel (rebshr...@aol.com)
• 14. Re: shatz saying things out loud (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Early morning minyan (D&E-H Bannett)
• 16. Re: answering Amen to various brachot (Michael Poppers)
• 17. Re: shatz saying things out loud (Rich, Joel)
• 18. Re: shatz saying things out loud (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)

"I heard quite recently that it is a relatively common psak to say Yisrael
out loud and to rely on the kehilla saying the bracha with the chazzan to
avoid the hefsek. However, if they do not say the bracha with they should
still not say Amen as m'samchim geula l'tefilla trumps saying
Amen.KT,~Liro"

FWIW REMA says to say amein lechtchila to ga'al yisroel. 

Aiui this meeans amein to SAME bracha NEVER constitutes a safeik.

Kt
Rrw
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 11:08:44PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: FWIW REMA says to say amein lechtchila to ga'al yisroel. 
: Aiui this meeans amein to SAME bracha NEVER constitutes a safeik.

I'm wondering miqal vachomer... If Hashkiveinu could be a Ge'ulah
arichtah, how could an amein to Ge'ulah itself be a problem? Clearly
"I gree" is less of a change of message than anything else could
be.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

This past Shabbas in the city where I live, there was a printed poster
hung-up outside our shul, announcing that a Rebbe was in town. The Rebbe
was staying at a Gvir's house (who happens to be a VERY big Baal Tzedakah),
and stated about the Gvir, that he was a "Rishon Shebirishon BeChol Davar
Shebekdusha".? 

We know that Flattery in Yiddishkeit is not allowed, except under certain
circumstances such as complimenting a bride, to avoid physical harm, and
perhaps some other specific cases. ? 

Does this particular poster violate injunctions against Flattery?? HB

(JLaw article with many references)
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/hf_LyingPermissible.html
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Joel Rich

Dear Joel,One major difference is the way Reb Chaim viewed
himself, as opposed to some of the modern ideologues.Reb Chaim never
expressed himself as somehow breaking with the past (I referred to this
in an article"

All I ask is that people be honest where they Are coming from.
Nobody's perfect. But any poseik can be honest about their tendencies.

Eg. REMA & BY tell you where their sources are and usually why they say
what they say. The Rambam was least likely to do this.

Most fall in between.

Kt
Rrw

Joel Rich

Dear Joel,One major difference is the way Reb Chaim viewed
himself, as opposed to some of the modern ideologues.Reb Chaim never
expressed himself as somehow breaking with the past (I referred to this
in an article"

All I ask is that people be honest where they Are coming from.
Nobody's perfect. But any poseik can be honest about their tendencies.

Eg. REMA & BY tell you where their sources are and usually why they say
what they say. The Rambam was least likely to do this.

Most fall in between.

Kt
Rrw

Harvey Benton wrote:
>  a Gvir's house (who happens to be a VERY big Baal Tzedakah), and stated
> about the Gvir, that he was a "Rishon Shebirishon BeChol Davar Shebekdusha".  
> We know that Flattery in Yiddishkeit is not allowed, except under certain
> circumstances such as complimenting a bride, to avoid physical harm, and
> perhaps some other specific cases.


Maybe it's true?  In which case it wouldn't be flattery.

Even if it's not quite true, even if there are others who are ahead of
him, it seems to me that encouraging tzedaka is an example of where a
certain amount of puffery is allowed.

In addition, perhaps in that community this is a standard title, which
all understand is not necessarily to be taken literally; in that case it's
not flattery.

PS: Not directly related, but see Sdei Chemed erech chanufah, where he
says that nowadays "harav hagaon" just means that the person has smicha.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

<According to R'Henkin's shita, should one say Amen, and not worry about 
the hefsek, or should one not say amen, even though hearing (and being motzi) 
the bracha?>

     R. Henkin's opinion was that the Amein after Ga'al Yisrael does not constitute a hefsek, and at the minyan in his home he insisted on its being said.
EMT
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<The Brisker shita starting with R. Chaim is that Tefilla be-tzibbur is really
Tefilla Hatzibbur and so one should listen to every word to be yotze this
shemonei esre preferably standing with one's feet together.> 
     While R. Chaim may have learned in the Rambam that chazaras hashatz is
     t'fillas hatzibbur, I believe that he did not draw the conclusion that
     one should therefore stand with his feet together.  The Brisker Rov
     and his son-in-law, R. Michel Feinstein, did not do so. It was RYBS
     who drew that conclusion, and to the best of my knowledge it is only
     among his talmidim and those who learned from them that it is
     practiced. 
     One wonders (at least, this one does) why, if such were the
     requirement, it went unmentioned by anyone for two millenia of
     chazaras hashatz.	I also wonder  why the tzibbur does not bend their
     knees and bow down at the places where the shatz does; why is it any
     different than the requirement of standing with the feet together?
<As far as Modim, many poskim stress that the chazan should say modim out loud.>
     No question.  But this does not mean that the shatz must wait until
     the kahal has finished saying Modim d'Rabbanan before he says Modim
     aloud.  This, too, is apparently a hanhaga introduced by RYBS.  The
     only reference I have found on this matter is the statement by the
     L'vush that it is _not_ necessary for the shatz to wait, as mentioned
     by the MB in Siman 127.  How does something become a requirement after
     not having been mentioned in all the years we have had t'filla
     b'tzibbur?
     I have seen some ba'alei t'filla who even wait to _start_ Modim until
     the tzibbur finishes.  This is in accord with no one, since RYBS
     explicitly states that the shatz should say the words "modim anachnu
     lach" and only then wait until the tzibbur finishes before continuing.
	But that raises the question of mah nafshach: if it is critical
     that the tzibbur hear every word, why are the first three words exempt
     from this requirement?  And if it is not critical, then why should he
     be required to wait for the rest of Modim?
     One might ask what harm there is in waiting.  However, there are three
     reasons not to do so: tircha d'tzibbura, the changing of minhag
     hamakom where it is not practiced, and the result that the phrase
     "sha'ata hu" has no meaning when divorced from "modim anachnu lach,"
     as it is by the long silence.
EMT
 
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the MB 66:35 (based upon earlier sources, eg. magen avraham) offers three
suggestions to avoid ansering Amen to the bracha of ga'al yisrael, all
suggestions to the congregation who will hear the bracha out loud.  there
is no suggestion of the chazzan saying it softly.
r. baruch epstein in his baruch she'amar roundly criticizes those chazzanim who say it quietly, and if i recall, even has a prohibition for it.
i remember seeing an article in haPardess defending the chazzanim, but the
arguments mustered were not impresive. on the other hand, RYBS said that
the bracha should be said aloud, and so it is practiced by R. Sraya
Devlitzki in his vatikin minyan in Bnei Brak, and thus has Rav Elyashiv
also paskened.
To me, it appears that if the problem could simply be alleviated by the chazzan saying it quietly, why didn't the MB or anyone earlier mention such an option.
Furthermore, according to the Rambam, tefillah bezibbur begins with kadish
and barchu and the chazzan should say the entire birchot kriyat shma out
loud, and that includes ga'al yisrael.
in OH 59:4 there is a similar issue with the end of ahava rabba/ahavat
olam, and the mechaber says one shouldn't answer amen to that bracha so
that there should be no hefsek, and here the chazzanim don't say it quietly
but the medakdekim say it with the chazzan as suggested by ga'al yisrael.
And if one should retort that bnei ashkenaz are not choshesh for this
mechaber based upon the Remah there and MB 59:25, then one should paskin
like the ramah in OH 66:7 to answer Amen after the chazzan and evern
reports that was the custom.
thus it would appear that the chazzan's silence is a minhag without Ta'am, for it is not consistent (ikvi).
however, after all this, see r. Pheifer's  Ishei Yisrael, pp. 163-4, paragraph 24, and fn 83.
shlomo pick
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On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 08:17:51AM +0000, Elazar M. Teitz wrote:
: While R. Chaim ...
: I believe that he did not draw the conclusion that one should therefore
: stand with his feet together. ... It was RYBS who drew that conclusion,
: and to the best of my knowledge it is only among his talmidim and those
: who learned from them that it is practiced.
: One wonders (at least, this one does) why, if such were the requirement,
: it went unmentioned by anyone for two millenia of chazaras hashatz.

As already retold, when RYBS got older, he was matir neder every erev
YK as he didn't expect to be able to stand through Chazaras haShatz for
YK Mussaf.

Doesn't this imply that RYBS too held it wasn't ikkar hadin? Hataras
nedarim is for minhagim, no?

Even without REMT's observation, RYBS's talmidim could figure out from his
own actions that their rebbe didn't intend to promulgate a new halakhah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
mi...@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                                - R' Binyamin Hecht

"Sdei Chemed erech chanufah, where he
says that nowadays "harav hagaon" just means that the person has smicha.

-- 
Zev Sero"

Fwiw Personally, in this era I use "gaon" re: anyone who is a baki in shas.

Kt
Rrw
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

"Even without REMT's observation, RYBS's talmidim could figure out from his
own actions that their rebbe didn't intend to promulgate a new halakhah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha"

Yes but I bear witness to the posthumous beatification of RYBS and even his PRIVATE minhaggim.

When I ws @ YU we did NOT daven the Rav's minhaggim EXCEPT in his own presence.

I can respect the. Rav 
And still pasken like ReMa.  Would his Sephardic talmiddim be expected to change THEIR minhag avos?

Or as one talmid ofRYBS confided: who told them to "spread the gospel"? 
IOW the Rav's practices were unique to him at least by and large.  Perhaps
his shita on eruv or duchening when YT.fell on shabbos were considered
universal....

Kt
Rrw
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

The Rav required saying Ga-ahl Yisroel outloud by the Shaliach Tzibbur with
the congregation saying it out loud with him.?? I believe that Rav Moshe
had a similar P'sak but I do not have the source in front of me.?? As to
what to do if a congregant does not say Ga-ahl Yisroel with the Shaliach
Tzibbur, I believe there are two valid positions.?? One could say Amen, for
since it is L'Tzorach Hatefilah (according to some a required response) it
is not considered a Hafsek between Geulah and Tefilah and is a true Geulah
Arichtah, even more than Baruch Hashem Amein V'amein: or one could not
respond with Amein to Ga-ahl Yisroel, just have in mind to fulfill one"s
one hundred belessings (since one only needs Kavanah, not Ahmen to be
Yotzei) and allow Semichat Geulah L'Tefilahto to trump saying Ahmen.

Kol Tov,

Stu Grant
?
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On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 04:50:43PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: Yes but I bear witness to the posthumous beatification of RYBS and
: even his PRIVATE minhaggim.

: When I ws @ YU we did NOT daven the Rav's minhaggim EXCEPT in his
: own presence.

Administrative point:
I don't mean this WRT RRW, who defined "the Rav" before using the title.
I recall one such discussion where an Israeli member told me (off-list)
that it took him two or three emails before realizing we weren't
discussing "haRav" -- RSZA! But please, people, remember that not
everyone hear speaks YU, and a long discussion of "the Rav" this and
"the Rav" that isn't going to make them feel at home. This list would
become far less interesting if only YU sympathizers felt comfortable
posting here.

I rejected a couple of posts with a request for a rewrite of "the Rav" to
"RYBS" or the like, but it felt cruel/too nitpicky to me, so I stopped
doing that. Instead, I'm making this public request for people to edit
themselves.

Now, on to the discussion....



My own experience doesn't match RRW's. Not just my father, R' Dr David
Berger, and others in our shteibl who did stand all of chazaras hasha"tz
for YK Mussaf (even before RDDB was our ba'al mussaf <g>), not to mention
the rest of the year.

RARakeffetR tells a similar story WRT sitting for havdalah. RYBS once
told his talmidim (back when that meant people like RALichtenstein,
RARR and RHSchachter) that his father, R' Moshe, held that one should
sit for havdalah. The se'udos of Shabbos are one long entity, and thus
just as you sit for qiddush, you should be sitting for havdalah.

A while later the talmidim convinced RYBS to stay on campus for Shabbos
(rather than return to Boston). He expressed surprise that the mavdil took
a seat. "Where did you learn such a thing?" And after the explanation,
his response was something along the lines of "That's what /I/ do,
how was I to know that's what you would do?"

It would therefore seem that RYBS himself would agree with RRW in theory,
but in practice the talmidim did accept his "inyanim" as though they
were halakhah pesuqah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When you come to a place of darkness,
mi...@aishdas.org        you don't chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org   You light a candle.
Fax: (270) 514-1507        - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

Re:  R'JR's question <<Why is the general (as I understand 
it) custom to
switch shlichei tzibbur (e.g. more than one avel) before 
yishtabach
rather than right after?>>

As yishtabach is the b'rakha ending of pesukei d'zimra it 
sounds more correct to switch afterward.   However, the old 
minhag, and minhag of many to this day, is that there  is no 
standing chazan for pesukei d'zimra.  The chazan goes to the 
teiva before yishtabach so the kahal can answer Amen at the 
end of pesukei d'zimra.

Once when I was an avel and another avel also wanted to say 
a kaddish during the davening, to many peoples' surprise, I 
switched after the kaddish before bar'khu. So I had that 
kaddish while he had the ones after sh'moneh esrei.

And that reminds me of reading about the Ben-Ish-Hai Baghdad 
custom that the chazan would stop while an avel said the 
kaddish after which the chazan continued.  I suppose that, 
for Baghdad, I should have written hazan rather than chazan.


David

(As before, forgive me (a) for being way behind in Avodah-digest reading; 
and (b) if someone has mentioned this already....)

In Avodah Digest V26#7, RSP wrote:
> ...To this I received the following response and which was also posted 
in
areivim:
>> I lived in Elizabeth, NJ from 1968 to 1974. Rav Teitz regularly came on
Sunday mornings to daven in the Bais Yitzchok shul on Bellevue Street. 
(For
those who do not know much about Elizabeth, Rav P. M Teitz, ZT"L, was THE
rov of the city. He was the rov of the 4 Orthodox shuls in Elizabeth. See
http://tinyurl.com/63gryd for more about Rav Teitz and his amazing
accomplishments in building Orthodoxy in Elizabeth, NJ.)
>> One Sunday morning an obviously Sefardi fellow whom I had never seen 
before
was davening for the Amud. After a moment or two Rav Teitz stopped him and
said, "You can pronounce any word the way you want except for HaShem's 
name.
You cannot say A--nai (that is, pronouncing a kamatz as if it were a 
pasach
as some Sefardim do.). You must say A--noi (pronouncing the kamatz with an
Ashkenaz pronunciation.) Your pronunciation is Chol for us and we cannot
answer Amen.... <<
[snip]
> Rav teitz's ruling seems to be a da'at yachid only applicable to 
Elizabeth
(then?) and it would appear that what rav teitz did appears to be 
applicable
ONLY to his own town, just as he had the authority to prohibit meat that 
did
not his have approval to be sold there.  Nonetheless, I am not so sure 
other
posekim would hold of his pesak. <
I would imagine that Rav Teitz zichrono livrachah (hereafter RPMT) was 
correcting the SHaTZ solely on behalf of the q'hilah and for the sake of 
the tzibbur that the SHaTZ was supposedly representing.  AFAIK, minhag 
hamaqom (w/ the maqom being the community which was under the guidance of 
RPMT and currently is under the aegis of listmember REMT) is that sheim 
Adnus must be pronounced as indicated above (and not only during t'filah 
but also during q'riyas haTorah, e.g. 1-18:3) in order to distinguish it 
as indicated above (likewise, when the word is chol, e.g. 1-19:2, it must 
be pronounced with a patach rather than a qamatz according to the 
pronunciation as indicated above).

In V26#10, RJFS wrote:
> It is regrettable that R' Pinxas Teitz is no longer alive to defend
himself; perhaps one of his living descendants will speak for him,
because this psaq, assuming it is correctly reported, does not appear
to be well thought-out....And yet, R' Pinxas Teitx, if this story is 
correctly
reported, publicly embarrassed someone rather than rely on this
normative halakha. <
WADR, a violation of minhag hamaqom isn't a situation based on logic, and 
I would not presume to question the need to stop a SHaTZ ex post facto and 
ensure that he properly represented the tzibbur for the remainder of his 
shlichus.

A guten Shabbes and all the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
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Yes but I bear witness to the posthumous beatification of RYBS and even
his PRIVATE minhaggim.

When I ws @ YU we did NOT daven the Rav's minhaggim EXCEPT in his own
presence.

I can respect the. Rav
And still pasken like ReMa.  

Or as one talmid ofRYBS confided: who told them to "spread the gospel"?
IOW the Rav's practices were unique to him at least by and large.
Perhaps his shita on eruv or duchening when YT.fell on shabbos were
considered universal....

Kt
Rrw
========================================================================
==

Unfortunately I was not a talmid of R'YBS but in the area of chazarat
hashatz I have taken on this practice - not because (as R'RRW points
out) in my heart of hearts I think the halacha is not like the Rama, and
not because of any beatification, but because I want to believe the
concept of tfilat hatzibbur and what it conceptually represents (it's
also a segula for not talking or learning during chazarat hashatz)
KT
Joel Rich
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