Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 34

Thu, 12 Feb 2009

• 1. Re: Ta'aroves of yayn mevushal (David Riceman)
• 2. Re: Brisk (David Riceman)
• 3. Aromatherapy (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Aromatherapy (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Currency and Bond Trading; Ribis (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Brisk (Micha Berger)
• 7. erusin/m'ureset (from areivim) (Saul Mashbaum)
• 8. Re: Aromatherapy (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 9. Re: Currency and Bond Trading; Ribis (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 10. The Uniqueness of Jewish Law (Yitzchok Levine)
• 11. Nat Bar Nat (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 12. Re: erusin/m'ureset (from areivim) (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Tu Bi Shvat Seder (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 14. Re: Interesting Count (Michael Poppers)
• 15. brisk (Eli Turkel)
• 16. Shehechiyanu: Tallis vs Tefillin (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Shehechiyanu: Tallis vs Tefillin (Zev Sero)
• 18. Re: Shehechiyanu: Tallis vs Tefillin (Micha Berger)
• 19. Re: Shehechiyanu: Tallis vs Tefillin (Zev Sero)
• 20. Re: Interesting Count (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)

Zev Sero wrote:
> NO, I understand it to mean "to become yayin nesech"; and we have already
> confined that to that which is fit to be used for our nesachim.  If an
> AKUM takes cooked wine and pours a libation for his god, as the rules of
> his religion allow, it's not yein nesech.  (I speculate that it might
> still be tikrovet AZ, of which yein nesech is a subset, but that might
> depend on whether he dedicated the whole drink to his god, or only the
> bit that he spilled.)  Therefore if he moves it without pouring a
> libation, it's not stam yeinam.
Please go back to the beginning of the perek and translate halachos 1 
and 2 for me.  They make perfect sense if the Rambam is talking about a 
physical action, but they seem nonsense if they're discussing the 
acquisition of a halachic status without describing how it's acquired.  
Especially please explain the parallelism between "nitnaseh" and "karev" 
in halacha 2.

David Riceman

Micha Berger wrote:
> To rephrase my point in a way that I hope is clearer:
> The Rambam relied on building a halachic geshtalt, not something that
> can be articulated. That's where his "nir'eh li" comes from.
>
> We today lack his ability to do that. So we instead try a more
> scientific description rather than building a feel.
That's certainly not the impression I get from reading his tshuvos.  
Instead my impression is that the Rambam thought that detailed analysis 
of sugyot was too difficult for those decadent modern times, and 
therefore that the proper pedagogical technique was to supply the 
student with normative decisions.  But he was perfectly capable of 
articulating his reasoning when writing to an accomplished scholar.

David Riceman

There is no berakhah achronah on rei'ach, because the hana'ah from
smells doesn't linger. Unlike food, which makes you feel less hungary and
(hopefully) nourishes after you eat it.

Well, there is a whole industry today of scents one can buy for the sole
sake of their lingering effect. The intent is, for examples, to bring
a calm or an alertness that lasts beyond the length of the candle /
scented oil. (I am not saying this works or doesn't work; I never tried
it. Perhaps it's a placebo effect -- but mah bein placebo le-actual in
a case like this?)

Given this, why shouldn't a person smelling these aromas for this
purpose be chayav to make a berakhah achronah? And if so, what would
it be? Borei nefashos, and a poseiq in doubt would probably add: without
sheim umalkhus?

Another question while on the subject: Why do most people say "asher
nasan rei'ach tov lepeiros?" What other birkhas hanehenin is in lashon
avar? (There is a nusach that has "Nosein".)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
mi...@aishdas.org        he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
http://www.aishdas.org   Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
Fax: (270) 514-1507      a spirit of purity.      - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Judging from an email I got, my previous post requires clarification.

Aromatherapy is not medicinal in nature. It's more meditational. A way
to enduce relaxation, alertness, soundness-of-mind, etc... So, I don't
think refu'ah would apply. This is hana'ah.

Mugmar is already discussed (see the QSA 56:1
<http://www.kitzur.net/main.php?siman=58>, for example). Stam, hana'ah
for rei'ach is assumed not to include the moment after you leave the
incense, which is why Chazal didn't coin a berakhah for it. I'm arguing
that aromtherapy is a new metzi'us -- a desire to get a lingering effect
(affect?) from incense.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
mi...@aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 08:11:20PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: [RSMashbaum:]
:> Consider an economic cooperative association. Members agree to treat
:> fellow members according to set rules, offering each other economic
:> privileges not offered to non-members....       In regard to ribit, Jews
:> are such an economic cooperative association.See TT to Dvarim 23:21 d"h
:> Umnam

: Leshitasi and I think RSR Hirsch et. al. it's all about a societal
: co-operative

That's a totally different topic. We were discussing interpersonal law,
the cited TT is discussing a subset, fiscal law, and saying that being
part of the same clan creates chiyuvim beyond justice.

You're returning to the theme of whether mitzvos are primarily aimed at
Kelal Yisrael or to its consituents.

...
: And AISI the tachlis is mamleches kohanim v'goy qaddosh. That to me
: trumps individual perfection.

Since we're rehashing, to remind the chevrah of my response: A mamlekhes
kohanim is about a group of individual kohanim, in addition to being
a single unit of a goy qadosh -- note the shift from lashon rabim to
lashon yachid. And in addition to goy qadosh there is also qedoshim tihyu
(again belashon rabbim). There are two berisim, beris Sinai and the
one in seifer Devarim. National aspects are introduced in the second.
The basic dialectic of the individual's highest calling is to serve the
community and the community exists to advance its individuals.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
mi...@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 08:09:44PM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
: Micha Berger wrote:
: >To rephrase my point in a way that I hope is clearer:
: >The Rambam relied on building a halachic geshtalt, not something that
: >can be articulated. That's where his "nir'eh li" comes from.

That's a mistake. I should have said "Yir'eh li". We discussed this
whole topic in v7n70 onward. See
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=N#NIREH%20LI>.

: >We today lack his ability to do that. So we instead try a more
: >scientific description rather than building a feel.

: That's certainly not the impression I get from reading his tshuvos.  
: Instead my impression is that the Rambam thought that detailed analysis 
: of sugyot was too difficult for those decadent modern times, and 
: therefore that the proper pedagogical technique was to supply the 
: student with normative decisions.  But he was perfectly capable of 
: articulating his reasoning when writing to an accomplished scholar.

R Dr Josh Backon points us to the HaEmeq She'eilah shi'lta 6 #1.
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol07/v07n071.shtml#09> Actually, he
points to the harder to find Qunterus Kelalei haRambam. The QKhR also
cites Beris Yaaqos 225, Zechus Yitzchaq I 173 and Yad Sover II 31,
who say it's the Rambam's buzzword for deductions he made that aren't
directly from Chazal. The YS goes so far as to say that everying other
than the "yir'eh li" cases are things the Rambam holds were already
stated by Chazal. RYD finds the same idea in one of the Rambam's igerot
(ed. Shailat II pg 443).

In which case, it would seem that (as opposed to what I wrote above)
the Rambam was more of an experimentor than a theorist. His ikkar was to
document the pesaqim of chazal, of course as he saw them. The few yir'eh
li-s (and even fewer nir'eh li-s) are an exception, and he invites us
to be choleiq if we wish.

But as everyone who does science knows, the experimenters' data is then
combed by the theoretician.

And there is still room for my original idea in that "document the
pesaqim of chazal, of course AS HE SAW THEM." Even moreso, it's the
Rambam's interpretation of Chazal when he wasn't trying to interpret.
(Just as every translator ends up giving the text some spin.) Which
would very much be an informal feel rather than a studied theory.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I mentioned on areivim that the modern Hebrew term for "engaged" is
m'uras/m'ureset/m'urasim.
The very fact tht the term applies to the groom , or to the couple, clearly
illustrates that it describes a status different than kiddushin.
Regarding the kallah,  the context normally makes it perfectly clear whether
the term meureset refers to engagement or kiddushin.

However, his situation could theoretically lead to some halachic problems,
in the spirit of a comment by RZS.

Let's say that a chatan said to the kallah, under the chuppa, "harei at
*meureset*
li b'tabbat zu....". This is a valid lashon of kiddushin, as is explicit in
Even HaEzer 27;1. In chu"l, I see no reason to doubt that the woman is
m'kudeshet.
In Israel, since meureset means different things in different contexts, as
above, it's not so clear to me. I am highly inclined to believe that in this
case, since the context (under the chuppa) very clearly demonstrates that
the chattan's intention is for  kiddushin, not the less binding status of
"engagement", that the women is m'kudeshet. This case seems to me to be no
worse no worse than "haya m'deber ima b'shkei kiddushin, v'natan la stam"

A much harder question is if , *outside* the the framework of a wedding
ceremony, someone in Israel were to say to a woman, while giving her an
object of value, "harei at meureset li b'tabbat zu....". . Is the colloquial
meaning of "meureset" in Israel able to nullify a halachicly valid lashon of
kiddushin, in the case where the context is not clear? The M'chaber cited
above seems to indicate that a valid lashon of kiddushin is always
effective, even if not fully understood by the woman, but in this case,
where colloquially "m'ureset" means "*not* m'kudeshet", possibly the term
"meureset" is invalid for kiddushin.
In this case I am inclined to believe that such a woman, if she agrees to
what the man proposes, is safek m'kudeshet, although here case too, in chu"l
she would be vadai m'kudeshet, since meureset means *only* m'kudeshet.


Saul Mashbaum
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On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:54:23 -0500
Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

...

> Well, there is a whole industry today of scents one can buy for the sole
> sake of their lingering effect. The intent is, for examples, to bring
> a calm or an alertness that lasts beyond the length of the candle /
> scented oil. (I am not saying this works or doesn't work; I never tried
> it. Perhaps it's a placebo effect -- but mah bein placebo le-actual in
> a case like this?)

Or perhaps it has no effect at all; self-reporting is notoriously
unreliable.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

Micha:
> That's a totally different topic. We were discussing interpersonal law,
> the cited TT is discussing a subset, fiscal law, and saying that being
> part of the same clan creates chiyuvim beyond justice

AISI it is one continuum how a model spritual society serves a role
model to the nations by being fiscally and spritually co-operative and
functioning as an ego-less WE instead of a self-absorbed ME.

Of course yeish lechaleik but I posit it's overlapping and integrated.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

In his commentary on Shemos 19: 10 - 13 RSRH 
discusses the special nature of Halacha. I have 
put his entire commentary on these pesukim at

http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/shemos_19_10_13.pdf

In part Rav Hirsch wrote

Jewish Law is the only system of laws that did not emanate from
the people whose constitution it was intended to be. Judaism is the only
?religion? that did not spring from the hearts of the people who find
in it the spiritual basis for their lives. It is precisely this ?objective?
quality of Jewish Law and of the Jewish ?religion? that makes them
both unique, setting them apart clearly and distinctly from all else on
earth that goes by the name of law or religion. This quality makes Jewish
Law the sole factor in human culture that can be considered the catalyst
and ultimate goal of every other manifestation of progress, whereas the
Law itself, as the given absolute ideal, remains above and beyond any
idea of progress.

All other ?religions? and codes of law originate in the human minds
of a given era; they merely express the conceptions of God, of human
destiny, and of man?s relation to God and to his fellow man, that are
held by a given society in a particular period of history. Hence, all these
man-made religions and codes, like all other aspects of human civilization
? science, art, morals and manners ? are subject to change
with the passing of time. For by their very nature and origin they are
nothing but the expressions of levels reached by civilization at various
stages in human development.

Not so the Jewish ?religion? and Jewish Law. They do not stem from
beliefs held by human beings at one period or another. They do not
contain time-bound human concepts of God and of things human and
Divine. They are God-given; through them men are told by God?s Will
what their conceptions should be, for all time, about God and things
Divine and, above all, about man and human affairs.

Please see the above link for his entire commentary.

Yitzchok Levine 
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I am a bit fuzzy on the minhag of Ashkenaz vs. Sepharad re: to nat bar nat

Scenario:
Rice is cooked in meat ben yomo pot.

What is the minhag A vs. S on these 3 in conjunction with dairy
1. Cooking together
2. Eating together 
3. Eating dairy immediately afterwards.

I know that A holds 3 is alright and definitely not 1. I'm fuzzy on 2.
I know that S holds 2 + 3 is alright but I'm fuzzy on 1

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 11:04:21PM +0200, Saul Mashbaum wrote:
: Let's say that a chatan said to the kallah, under the chuppa, "harei at
: *meureset*
: li b'tabbat zu....". This is a valid lashon of kiddushin, as is explicit in
: Even HaEzer 27;1. In chu"l, I see no reason to doubt that the woman is
: m'kudeshet.
: In Israel, since meureset means different things in different contexts, as
: above, it's not so clear to me...

RARakeffetR gives a general statement that since these things go belashon
benei adam, and in Israeli Hebrew today "eirusin" means engagement, not
qiddushin, an engagement ring given while saying something about eirusin
wouldn't require a get. At least, they don't introduce more questions
than engagement rings in general -- RARR recommends not giving the ring
bifnei eidim.

However, RSM's case is a little more difficult, and I'm not sure RARR's
kelal would apply. Because here the chasan is imitating the famous
matbei'ah for qiddushin. Therefore, can we really assume he's speaking
belashon benei adam when the rest of the sentence wasn't crafter that way?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I long to accomplish a great and noble task,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it is my chief duty to accomplish small
http://www.aishdas.org   tasks as if they were great and noble.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Helen Keller 

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:56:43 -0500
Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

...

> Anyone know of an article on the evolution of Tu biShvat? How much
> predates the Chemdat Yamim, and what is older?
...

> Therefore, I'd be curious to know who established what -- what came from Tzefat, and what came from CY.

Wolf2191 (http://ishimshitos.blogspot.com) reminds us of Dan
Rabinowitz's essay:

http://seforim.traditiononline.org/index.cfm/2006/2/7/I
s-Tubeshevat-a-Sabbatian-Holiday

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

In Avodah Digest V26#20, R'Micha writes:
> Our [Ashk] practice of saying Keil Melekh Ne'eman (EMN) when beyechidus <
Why should it only be biychidus? ;-)  See RBHamburger's "Sharshei Minhag
Ashk'naz" Vol II for details (if desired, I can try to summarize here).
Granted, even Baer in Siddur Avodas Yisrael notes that b'tzibbur one
wouldn't say it because of the repetition of "H' Elokeichem Emes," but KAJ
(once again, representing ancient minhagim) doesn't have such repetition
(hence, I always said EMN there), and RBH, k'darko baqodesh, explains all
sides of the issue.

All the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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<<It is difficult for me to imagine how Gemara could possibly NOT be
an intellectual challenge.

Correction: I CAN'T imagine how Gemara could possibly not be an
intellectual challenge.

Anyone who is so intelligent that he doesn't find Gemara to be
challenging... wow! I know that I'm not the brightest guy in the
class, but now I'm *really* impressed!>>

Difficult is not the same as challenging. I remember once learning
with a friend one of the modern books
on hilchot kashrut. He gave up after a short time as everything seemed
to be a bunch of dsitinct laws
and it was more memorization than thinking.

One of the hard parts of learning kdshin is that much of it seems to
be learning of pesukim
without a logical base (at leats before Brisk -) )
Much of mesechet shabbat is also details rather than a few principles.

The yeshiva world goes around the 3 babas, gittin and few other such
gemarot because they
have more "meat" in them

kol tuv

-- 
Eli Turkel

Another Qitzur SA question:

In 59:8: Qanahlo talis shel mitzvah ... yevareikh shehechiyanu

Not much later, 59:9: Al sefarim chadashim sheqanah eino mevareikh
shehechiyahu. Because mitzvos lav leihanos. It's actually a machloqes
acharonim, and someone who is excited about finally getting a particular
seifer and wants to make a berakhah, may.

Nu, why don't we say "mitzvos lav leihanos nitnu" on a talis (which RSG
even specifies as "shel mitzvah")?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
mi...@aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

Micha Berger wrote:

> Nu, why don't we say "mitzvos lav leihanos nitnu" on a talis (which RSG
> even specifies as "shel mitzvah")?

Because it's a garment, from which one *does* benefit - it does in fact
keep one warm.  A sefer does nothing for one, except allow one to fulfil
the mitzvah of talmud torah, and that doesn't count as a hana'ah because
MLLN.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 09:32:27AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: Because it's a garment, from which one *does* benefit - it does in fact
: keep one warm.  A sefer does nothing for one, except allow one to fulfil
: the mitzvah of talmud torah, and that doesn't count as a hana'ah because
: MLLN.

Ever get hana'ah from solving a crossword puzzle or sudoku? Or from
finally getting peshat in a technical article?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 09:32:27AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> : Because it's a garment, from which one *does* benefit - it does in fact
> : keep one warm.  A sefer does nothing for one, except allow one to fulfil
> : the mitzvah of talmud torah, and that doesn't count as a hana'ah because
> : MLLN.
> 
> Ever get hana'ah from solving a crossword puzzle or sudoku? Or from
> finally getting peshat in a technical article?

1) Does that pleasure count as hana'ah (benefit)?
2) Even if so, the pleasure from sefarim is from the learning, which
is a mitzvah, and MLNN.  OTOH if it's a beautiful and expensive sefer
which gives one pleasure simply from owning it and looking at it,
unrelated to its contents or to the prospect of learning them, then
maybe one would say shehecheyanu.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Michael poppers:
> but KAJ (once again, representing ancient minhagim) doesn't have such
> repetition (hence, I always said EMN there),

I have not yet read Rav Hamburger on this but Michael are you sure of
the underlying reason?

AIUI KAJ eschewed the gimatriyah of 248 and cut back to emes only davka
to avoid public gimatryiah/qabbalah. If I am correct adding keil melech
ne'eman would undo this process.

Wolpoe's first law:
We often know what to do. But do not know why we do it.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile


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