Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 40

Mon, 23 Feb 2009

• 1. Re: Negiah and Friday night brachot (Michael Poppers)
• 2. dechuya - hutrah (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: Wedding Rings for Men (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 4. "The Angel Which Redeemed Me From All Evil." Bereshis (48:16) (Cantor Wolberg)
• 5. Re: "The Angel Which Redeemed Me From All Evil." Bereshis (48:16) (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Wedding Rings for Men (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: Akeidah vs. Chet Eigel (Michael Poppers)
• 8. Re: Akeidah vs. Chet Eigel (T6...@aol.com)
• 9. dechuya - hutrah (Liron Kopinsky)
• 10. Minhag Avos and Sephardim (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 11. Re: Akeidah vs. Chet Eigel (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 12. Re: Aruch Hashulchan Yomi (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 13. Re: Can we force Hashem to do something? (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Akeidah vs. Chet Eigel (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Akeidah vs. Chet Eigel (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 16. Re: Akeidah vs. Chet Eigel (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)

In Avodah Digest V26#38, RDIC repeated a Q:
> I posted the following back in January:
> "I do not want to again bring up the topic of negiah and derech chiba
which
has been discussed many times. However, i am looking for sources on its
application to relations by marriage, e.g. son-in-law and mother-in-law or
daughter-in-law and father-in-law.
A specific example. In a home on Friday night, where the father's minhag is
to give the birchat habanim and banot by placing a hand (or both hands) on
the head of the child, can he do so with his daughter-in-law? I could not
find sources. Any help or ideas?"
> The only responses I received concerned giving a bracha at the bedeken
during the wedding. I was really looking for sources concerning a regular
Friday night and the minhag of birchat habanim/banot.
Any help would be appreciated. <
Sources (and much else concerning this minhag) were noted in the Avodah v8
(Oct2001) discussion.  Frankly, I don't think this minhag applies to one's
own children who already are ba'alei bayis, much less to others' children,
whether male or female, who have their own household, but I look forward to
changing my mind someday :).

Shavua Tov/Gut Voch and all the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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I am giving a shiur on whether shabbat/pikuach nefesh is hutra or dechuya

does anyone know a source that discusses in general hutra vs dechuya
and examples of hutra
most aseh docheh lo taaseh seem to be dechuya

Thanks
-- 
Eli Turkel

Rich, Joel wrote:
>
> So why is it not a good idea for men to be reminded as well?
>
See Igros Moshe E.H. 3:18 page 442 and Igros Moshe E.H. 4:32 page 74 - 
says it is clearly prohibited

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?????????
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The Cherubim shall be with wings spread upward, sheltering the Cover  
with their wings with their faces toward one another; toward the the  
Cover shall be the faces of the Cherubim (Shmos 25:20).

The only way we can truly keep Torah is by facing each other.
And once we honestly face each other, we become cherub-like and can  
ultimately be redeemed.
ri

It is impossible to see the Angel unless you first have a notion of it.
James Hillman - Prominent Jewish American Psychologist
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On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 08:45:01AM -0500, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
: The Cherubim shall be with wings spread upward, sheltering the Cover  
: with their wings with their faces toward one another; toward the the  
: Cover shall be the faces of the Cherubim (Shmos 25:20).

Do keruvim shelter? Or do they hold a lahat cherev hamis-hapekhes to
GUARD the road to the eitz hada'as?

    The topic of Torah to the Nefesh: A comparison to rain for the
    ground; it causes what was planted there to grow, a cure or a
    poison. Similarly Torah, causes what is in his heart to grow. If
    what is in his heart is good, his yir'ah will grow; if what's in
    his heart is a "root sprouting poison weed and wormwood" then the
    bitterness that's in his head will grow.

    As they wrote "the righteous will walk in it, and sinners will
    stumble in it" [Hoshea 14:10, as explained by Chazal], and as they
    wrote "To those on the right the medicine of life is in it, and to
    those on the left, the poison of death." [Shabbos 88b]

    Therefore one must cleanse one's heart every day before study and
    after it of impure attitudes and middos with a fear of sin and
    good deads.

    This [process] is euphamistically called "going to the bathroom". They
    were was about this they hinted when they said "Going to the
    bathroom is greater tha all of it." (Berakhos 8a) And when they said
    "Whomever spends a long time in the bathroom, it is lofty." (Ibid
    55a) Also when they said, "Get up early and go, in the evening go"
    (Ibid 62a) they intend to say that in his youth and in his old age
    he shouldn't distance himself a great distance from his Creator so
    that he couldn't be helped.

    One must inspect which evil middah is strong within him, and after
    that clean it out. Not like those men of desire who wallow in what
    they want, and the desire grows greater. It requires a lot of slyness,
    to be "sly in yir'ah" (Abayei, Ibid 17a) in opposition to the "snake
    was sly".

    One who is lazy in weeding out an evil middah, isn't helped by all
    the legal fences and protations that he does. For any disease which
    isn't cured from within...Even the fence of the Torah which protects
    and saves will be useless because of his laziness. (c.f. Rava,
    Sotah 21a; Bei'ur haGra Mishlei 24:31, 25:5)

                    - Vilna Gaon as quoted in Even Sheleimai 1:11

As I see it, a role of the keruvim on the aron is to protect those who
lack the middos from using the Torah to water their weeds.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

 
Rich, Joel wrote: 

        So why is it not a good idea for men to be reminded as well? 

        ================================================= 
        

See Igros Moshe E.H. 3:18 page 442 and Igros Moshe E.H. 4:32 page 74 -
says it is clearly prohibited 
========================================================
 
Isn't this referring to a double ring ceremony? I was just referring to
a man wearing a wedding ring.
KT
Joel Rich 


         

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In Avodah Digest V26#39, RRW responded to R'Micha:
> Pokdi Is not punishment more like legacy or maybe karma
> We are still suffering from cheit adam harishon and from cheit hameraglim
and from cheit ho'egel.
> AISI it is not retribution so much as the lingering after affect. <
The "first person" of Shmos 32:34 sounds like hQbH actively utilizing that
cheit [ha-eigel] rather than it being "background radiation."

> Now the din can be spread out only 4 doros. Cheshbon on fundamental
prototypical aveiros can linger for a while. <
R'Micha seemed to be asking why "a while" is more (in terms of doros) like
la'alafim than ribei-im. Specifically, he asked, "The contrast of thousands
of generations vs four being pointed out as a statement of midas
haRachamim. Well, we're well past ribei'im on the eigel. Ideas?"  My
tuppence (perhaps influenced by something RYReisman said last night ;-)) is
that "poqeid avon avos" occurs to each dor in the precise measure of *midas
haRachamim* it requires for its own good (for fill-in-the-blank reasons: as
a spur to proper actions, to force emigration, ...).

All the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
>>One could ask  about the justice of punishing subsequent generations
-- or reward them, but  asking about that is looking a gift horse in
the mouth. Nu, so we talk about  the lingering effects of that sin on
the next generations. The child learns  behaviors from the parents. But
here it seems to run counter to the pasuq  "notzeir chesed la'alafim"
-- nu, zechus avos fits. But the eigel, "poqeid  avon avos al banim,
ve'al benei banim, al sheleishim ve'al ribei'im..." The  contrast of
thousands of generations vs four being pointed out as a statement  of
midas haRachamim. Well, we're well past ribei'im on the eigel.  Ideas?<<



>>>>>
 
 
As long as we continue to sin (even a little bit) in a way that is similar  
to cheit ha'egel, that cheit has not been fully atoned for and we  still have 
to bear onesh for that cheit.  Cheit ha'egel would be  worshipping anyone or 
anything other than Hashem or in addition to Hashem.   Sadly our own generation 
is guilty of having several false gods, and some of the  frummest people who 
wear beards and gartels are sometimes guilty vehamevin  yavin.  In general 
Hashem "visits the sins of the fathers on their  children" only when the children 
continue in the misdeeds of the fathers.
 

--Toby Katz
==========



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does anyone know a source that discusses in general hutra vs dechuya and
examples of hutra
most aseh docheh lo taaseh seem to be dechuya

LK:
See Yuma 84B
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Several Sephardic rabbis have told me point blank that while Talmud
has several referneces to minhag hamaqom there is no talmudic basis for
minhag avos.

I pointed to the case of Rabbi Yochanan about going to market and
friday and his citation of al titosh toras imecha. I also pointed to
the statement re: perpetuating YT sheini "minhag avoseichem beedeichem."

I also questioned the logic. If Sephardim subscribe to no minhag avos
that would imply that following 1492 there were no more Sephardim born?
Also minhag EY at time of GRA could not have been Sepharidc since all
Spanish natives were long gone. Similar argument for America circa 1654.

Any help with source particularly any Sephardic sources on topic would
be of help.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Rebetzin Toby:
> As long as we continue to sin (even a little bit) in a way that is
> similar to cheit ha'egel, that cheit has not been fully atoned for
> and we still have to bear onesh for that cheit. Cheit ha'egel would
> be worshipping anyone or anything other than Hashem or in addition
> to Hashem.

Agreed and
I would add that
Heit adam harishon
Heit ho'egel
:Heit hameraglim

Are all exceptions to the 4 generation limit because they are
paradigmatic.

To me the original sin was Adam's coverup. Similar to shaul he could not
confess when caught unlike david hamelech and l'havdil George Washington

The meraglim is amout LH diba etc.

The Eigel is about unfaithfulness

The mishnah in ta'anis already links 5 sins for 17 ta.mmuz and 9 av.
Iow these are recurring themes.

A simple individual heit otoh has a 4 generation curfew given several
parameters.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

> The lite program is KSA Yomi.
> -micha

The problem with KSA in general is that he is too light on hilchos
shabbos and pesach

The Zichru Toras Moshe or Rav Posen's Kitzur Hilchos Shabbos remedies
the Shabbas part

I have seen little of a kitzur book on Passover except R. Shimon Eider's
in English
His Shabbos book is good too

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 09:47:30PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
:> mal'akhim, since they
:> (particularly when up in Shamayim I there is broader agreement) have no
:> bekhirah. "

: Source please?

You asked the same when RABaruch cited RSYWeinberg (v2n005) as making
the same assertion I did.

The Rambam says so in the 5th ikkar.

The Or Samei'ach (in his essay in Hil' Teshuvah "HaKol Tzafui" writes
that mal'achim to have bechirah in potentia, but in practice the right
choice is obvious.

Taking the following from Sifsei Chaim (Pirqei Emunah uVrakhah II pg 142
unward:
Your position is that of the Seifer haChasidim (530) and Yalqut Re'uveini
(Bereieshis, in the name of Sodei Razia). They hold that mal'achim have
bechirah, but can make a decision based on what they think the facts
are. And thus can sin by erring on the facts. The Ramchal gives a similar
explanation for the Sitra Achara's rebellion against HQBH -- it was an
error in facts. (His intent was to make bad and good equally compelling
choices for people, and then got to thinking that this meant that good
and bad were equal, and thus Hashem's authority and his were as well.)

I forgot RYGB's source (back in our discussion in 2000), but he argued
that the Qabbalah idea that mal'akhim can sin through erring about
the truth applies in particular when the mal'akh is on shelichus, not
in shamayim. These sources would agree that when in Shamayim, the Or
Samei'ach is correct.

That's what I was remembering when I wrote my parenthetic remark.

The notion that mal'akhim have no bechirah is implied by R' Yaaqov Qatina
who notes they are called omedim / nitzavim. And thus mal'akhim only
have one leg because they are on pillars, as opposed to being walking
beings. They don't make decisions and thus they don't change.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Time flies...
mi...@aishdas.org                    ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 05:11:13PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: Rebetzin Toby:
: > As long as we continue to sin (even a little bit) in a way that is
: > similar to cheit ha'egel, that cheit has not been fully atoned for
: > and we still have to bear onesh for that cheit. Cheit ha'egel would
: > be worshipping anyone or anything other than Hashem or in addition
: > to Hashem.
: 
: Agreed and
: I would add that
: Heit adam harishon
: Heit ho'egel
: :Heit hameraglim

: Are all exceptions to the 4 generation limit because they are
: paradigmatic.

Where does HQBH write about exceptions?

Also, WRT the point the two of you agree upon....

Are you saying that the usual case of "ve'al ribei'im" totally innocent
people are punished until the 4th generation, just because of their
yichus?

I took it to mean that the sins of the fathers are remembered upon
as many generations as could first-hand remember the grandfathers and
therefore share culpability for not returning to their lifestyle. IOW,
"al rbei'im is only when they continue in the cheit, and bemiddas
harachamim Hashem doesn't punish beyond that. A generation that sins
may obliterate memory of the emes from much of the 2nd generation, most
of the third and nearly all of the fourth. But by the 5th generation,
any continuation of the sin is entirely by tinoqos shenishbe'u.


BTW, recall <grin> that "poqeid" not only means to remember, it also
means to appoint as well as to count. I believe the common theme is that
the items are singled out. It's not counting elements as part of a
whole, but counting them to distinguish them from an amorpous whole (to
"appoint" them), which explains its use for accounting in the title word
of parashas Pequdei. And in that sense, RMP's notion that "poqeid avon
avos" is about a me'eis le'eis memory (since this is about HQBH, it would
be more pedantic to instead say "allowing us to be impacted by a memory")
as opposed to a constant one fits the general feel I get from the shoresh.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Weeds are flowers too
mi...@aishdas.org        once you get to know them.
http://www.aishdas.org          - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Offlist
Q;
Where does HQBH write about exceptions?

A: uvyom pokdi

Anyway your question about pokeid for 4 generations is a svara a maskif.  Same for me. The exception is a maskif

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Plz post

Micha:

"Are you saying that the usual case of "ve'al ribei'im" totally innocent
people are punished until the 4th generation, just because of their
yichus?"

No I am saying the drasha of the ratio of 4:2000 applies to vanilla avonnos.  Iow simple avonnos vs. Simple chessed is 1:500

Otoh the major case squad of adam/eigel/meraglim are not standard issue
aveiros and therefore you cannot ask a kasha ob them because they are
different in nature than a simple avon.

I would not read into this colossal extrapolations.

Some rules have exceptions

Kt
Rrw
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile


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