Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 65

Mon, 13 Apr 2009

• 1. Re: running a seder (Chanoch (Ken) Bloom)
• 2. Re: [Areivim] hand vs machine Matzah (Akiva Blum)
• 3. running a seder (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Re: running a seder (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 5. FW: Karpas/Davar shetivulo bemashkeh (SBA)
• 6. Who drinks the Four Cups? (Jonathan Baker)
• 7. haredi astronomy (saul newman)
• 8. running a seder (Saul Mashbaum)
• 9. Re: running a seder (David Riceman)
• 10. Re: FW: Karpas/Davar shetivulo bemashkeh (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Who drinks the Four Cups? (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 12. Dr. Mendel Hirsch on the Founding of a Jewish State (Yitzchok Levine)
• 13. Re: Kitniyos and Potatoes (SBA)
• 14. Re: They and Them, or We and Us (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: They and Them, or We and Us (Stuart Feldhamer)
• 16. Eating Matza for 7 Days (Liron Kopinsky)
• 17. Re: Karpas/Davar shetivulo bemashkeh (Richard Wolpoe)
• 18. Re: Kitniyos and Potatoes (Richard Wolpoe)
• 19. Re: Kitniyos and Potatoes (Micha Berger)
• 20. Re: Karpas/Davar shetivulo bemashkeh (Zev Sero)

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 19:30 -0400, David Riceman wrote:
> rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Afaik NO rishon sees these as questions from the children.
> >   
> IIRC the Mordechai says that bizman habayis the meal was eaten first and 
> the talking came later (as is the apparent order in the Mishna).  This 
> leaves open the possibility that they could be asked spontaneously by 
> children.
> 
> David Riceman

I'd like to look this up. Could you tell me where exactly the Mordechai
says this?

--Chanoch

-- 
Chanoch (Ken) Bloom. PhD candidate. Linguistic Cognition Laboratory.
Department of Computer Science. Illinois Institute of Technology.
http://www.iit.edu/~kbloom1/

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 [also sent to Avodah]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: areivim-boun...@lists.aishdas.org 
> [mailto:areivim-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of I. Balbin
> Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 5:19 AM
> To: Eli Turkel
> Cc: areivim
> Subject: Re: [Areivim] hand vs machine Matzah
> 
> 
> On 08/04/2009, at 12:57 AM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> 
> > <<> There is a psak from R. Elyashiv (which I think is 
> obvious) that  
> > if
> >> various
> >> people won't eat from the matzos of another at the seder (different
> >> hashgachot, machine/hand etc) they cannot join together 
> for a zimmun
> >
> > R. Elyashiv is only paskening that if in fact neither set 
> of people  
> > will eat
> > the other kind of matzah then they can't make a zimmun together.
> I know that. What I was suggesting was that since *B'Deieved* 
> the two  
> could eat each variety
> in the event that one variety was not available, then it's simply an  
> exercise in choice as far
> as the gavra is concerned, but the cheftza does have a 
> possibility of  
> being shared (albeit in
> only certain circumstances).
> 
> As such, it might be similar to a case where one was eating Rye for  
> health reasons and the other Whitebread
> also for health reasons but if neither had access they would eat the  
> other bread. Do those people not
> make zimun when they eat Rye and Whitebread at a meal?

Take a look at SA OC 196:3 where this is discussed.

My Mishna Berura published by Dirshu quotes Rav Sternbuch (Tshuvas Vehanhogos
4:100) and  Rav Wosner (Shevet Halevi 8:117) WRT machine and hand matzos, saying
the same thing.

I haven't looked up the first source, but I see Rav Wosner says it, and brings a
proof from a tshuva of Maharam meRutenburg that applies this halocho even in a
case of someone who defers from eating certain foods for his personnel health
reasons.

It seems Rav Elyashiv wasn't the first.

Akiva

Forget about simcha - what about cheirus? Is this how a free man eats?
Matzah maror and soup?

While the dilemma of trying to balance everything on the night of the seder
is indeed a difficult one, I don't see this as being a solution.>>

There was an article in the JP of friday. Asher Meir points out
that the slaves in America had a higher standard of living then after
emancipation. From the complaints in Chumash it is conceivable that the
Jews ate better in Egypt as slaves then in the desert.
Bottom line there is no connection between slavery and eating well
it is the festival of freedom and not the festival of prosperity

Having a big fancy seder meal is a modern Jewish concept. I doubt that
the Jews of the shtetl had very fancy meals.

-- 
Eli Turkel

RET
"
Having a big fancy seder meal is a modern Jewish concept. I doubt that
the Jews of the shtetl had very fancy meals.

-- 
Eli Turkel"

Do you have a source?

AFAIK the minhag was to display the finest silver on Seder Night despite the year-round restriction of zecher lehurban!

Sounds implicit to me that conspicuous prosperity is indeed a function of heirus

Gutn Mo'ed
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Over YT I have done a bit of 'exploring' in the topics of "uRechatz" and
"Karpas".

There seem to be 2 reasons for washing hands before Karpas -
a) Because it is a Davar shetivulo bemashkeh - which, despite most not being

nizhar all year, at the Seder - the head of the family (and in some places 
everyone) washes their hand.  (Lechore, there may be no chiyuv even for
those who are makpid to always wash for DShB - as one is supposed to eat
less than a Kezayis of Karpas.)  Or 
b) We do this to give the children another opportunity to ask questions
about strange and unusual minhagim of the night. 

Having made a bit of a survey, I found that for Karpas - quite a few have a
Minhag of using potatoes.

Now if the reason for Rechatz is b) - neecha. The kids will ask the question
- whatever is used. (In fact I have heard rumors of banana and
strawberries).

But if the reason is a), washing for a DShB is not required on any item that
requires peeling - even if it is washed before or after... 

I invite our TCs to comment..

MeInyan LeInyan... I spoke (separately)  to 2 young 'Bnei Torah-types" here
and asked if they are noheg to always wash for DShB.  They both humbly
replied that they do.

I asked them if they wash hands before eating pickled cucumbers - seeing
that they are wet when taken out of the jar or container?
 They both said , no. But couldn't explain why.

I have a chashash that they had taken up a Chumra (which, BTW, is actually
recommended by many poskim - including the KSA) without really knowing 
very much about the subject..

SBA

A long piece on the history of drinking Four Cups at the seder in Ashkenaz
and Sefardic lands.

http://thanbook.blogspot.com/2009/04/who-drinks-four-cups.html

In short: the Bavli and Yerushalmi have different views as to whether only
the leader drinks, or everybody drinks, based on different baraitot and 
memras present in one or the other Talmud. This is reflected in the Ashkenazi
Rishonim who say that lechatchilah, one may drink for all, but it's better
if all drink, vs. the Rambam, who states without qualification that all drink. 

R' Chaim Brisker tries to reconcile them by positing a distinction
between Kos Shel Bracha (where one drinks for all) and the din of 4 Cups
(where everybody drinks).  But it's not necessary if one takes into account
the differences between the Bavli and Yerushalmi, and the idea that the 
Yerushalmi/Eretz Yisrael tradition is the direct ancestor of Minhag Ashkenaz,
which may not have been au courant in R' Chaim's day.

Pictures in illustrated haggadot support this divergence of custom between
Spain and Franco-Germany, at least through the 16th century.  After that,
the publication of the Shulchan Aruch with the Rema not objecting, that 
all drink, makes the custom more uniform (SA OH 472:14).

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjba...@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

http://www.avakesh.com/2009/04/does-the-sun-go-around-the-earth.html
on issues of heleocentricity and astronomy
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RRW

Q:  Why was arami chosen over more complete passages in shmos re: Exodus?

I like the following explanation, which I heard many years ago from R.
Shimon Felix of Yeshivat HaMivtar.

The person bringing bikkurim emphasizes that the yetziat mitzraim
experience is the basis of his own existence; his present actions are
founded on the story he tells. Parshat Bo is history; Arami oved avi
is autobiography. As such, arami oved avi is a much more powerful,
although compact, narrative to serve as the basis for the seder, whose
whole point is to engender the personal connection of the participants
to the story being told.


Regarding RRW's position that the "ma nishtanah" is not the text of
the questions asked by the child: the Malbim in his commentary on the
hagaddah says exactly this. He cites Tosfot P'sachim 115b d"h k'dei
in support of this position. After the pouring the second kos, the
child is encouraged to ask questions, whaterever he chooses to ask,
with no set text. If no questions ensue, "eino yodea lishol", "lfi
daato shel ben aviv m'lamdo", the father points out the unusual
practices of the seder night, the ma nishtana, as an introduction to
the narrative of the haggadah.

Saul Mashbaum

Chanoch (Ken) Bloom wrote:
> I'd like to look this up. Could you tell me where exactly the Mordechai
> says this?
>   
It's in the section called "He lach haseder biktzarah" after the 
expression "hagha amar R. Yohannan halukin alav haveirav al Hillel".  If 
you have access to Joseph Tabory's book "Pesah Dorot" it's worthwhile 
looking at footnote 9 on p. 33 (apparently this should be attributed to 
R. Shmaya, Rashi's student, and not to R. Meir MiRothenberg).

David Riceman

SBA wrote:

> Lechore, there may be no chiyuv even for
> those who are makpid to always wash for DShB - as one is supposed to eat
> less than a Kezayis of Karpas.

Why should this make a difference?  Surely one washes without a bracha
even for less than a kebeitza of bread.


> But if the reason is a), washing for a DShB is not required on any
> item that requires peeling - even if it is washed before or after... 

Where is this from?


> I asked them if they wash hands before eating pickled cucumbers - seeing
> that they are wet when taken out of the jar or container?
>  They both said , no. But couldn't explain why.

Pickles are often eaten with a fork; therefore if one does indeed eat
them with a fork one needn't wash.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

JJB

"In short: the Bavli and Yerushalmi have different views as to whether only
the leader drinks, or everybody drinks, based on different baraitot and 
memras present in one or the other Talmud"

Tangentially:
Iirc it is R Yehoshua ben Levi that spices up at least several controversial points left ambiguous by the mishnah itself namely:

1 that we read megillas esthert @ night (the mishnah implies day only as per yom haknissa)

2 that women because of af hein hayi b'oso haneis therefore they:
A* read megilas esther
B drink 4 cups
C light Hanukkah

A*  note behag's girsa is for women to hear the reading of the megillah
And as per Tosafos a Tosefta contradicts RYBL in this case only

Gutn Mo-ed
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

The following is from Dr. Mendel Hirsch's commentary on the 
Haftoroth. Dr. Hirsch was the eldest son of RSRH. The selection below 
comes from his commentary of the Haftorah for Shabbos Chol Moed 
Pesach pages 592 - 593.

  (Written in 1896 I.L.) "So that even if to-day, through some 
miraculous chain of events, Palestine were to be placed at the 
unconditional disposal of the Jews, and they could return to the 
"Land of their Fathers" and found an independent state there: 
nothing, nothing at all, would be gained as long as the causes have 
not disappeared which once brought about  the downfall of the state 
and the destruction of the Temple, yea which made that downfall 
unavoidably necessary for the preservation of Judaism and thereby 
Jewry. A Jewish National body without Jewish spirit would be, and 
remain, dead; a Jewish State, that does not, in making the laws of 
the Torah a reality, present a picture of the realisation of the 
eternal laws of justice and love of one's neighbour based on the 
sound foundation of purity of morals, would be a still-born creation, 
and irretrievably doomed, to dissolution, even as it was thousands of 
years ago. But this is just by way of parenthesis!
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From: "Prof. Levine" 
A friend of mine once told me that the minhag of not eating kitnyos became
widespread after the potato was introduced in 1536 to Europe from the New
World and it use spread.  Without kitnyos or potatoes there would have been
almost nothing to eat.
>>

 I don't think that is correct. 
In fact, I have heard the opposite - that 'noch a mazel' that when they
banned Kitniyos potatoes had not yet been introduced to the Old World. 
For if they had, they too would have met the fate of Kitniyos.

SBA

On Sun, Apr 05, 2009 at 12:47:51PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: I had been planning on beginning our Seder with something like...
:> I often hear people saying things like "The Bnai Yisrael left Mitzrayim",
:> or "80% of them died during the Choshech." It drives me crazy when I
:> hear such things. We should not say "Bnai Yisrael" and "them". We should
:> be saying "we" and "us". ...                               But on this
: night, the whole point of which is to re-experience Yetzias Mitzrayim,
: as if we ourselves we were, I feel that it is very important to use
: these words. It will inevitably help us to get into that mindset...

: But upon reviewing the Hagada, I find that even on this night, even
: the Hagada itself does not go to the extreme that I've suggested. Just
: one example would be in the remark "shehayu Yisrael m'tzuyanim sham -
: Israel was distinctive there." ...

Much of Maggid wasn't written for Maggid. For example, you're quoting
the Sifri on Devarim 26:5. Rabban Gamliel omeir is a mishnah in Pesachim
(10:5).

Avadim hayinu, and Bitechilah ovedei AZ OTOH, are in first person and as
AFAIK were written for the Hagaddah. (Dayeinu too, for that matter.)

(I didn't go through all of Maggid to see if this answer fully works.
Worload is such that I went in to the office on ch"m.)

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 4th day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Chesed: When is Chesed an
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           imposition on others?

RMB:

> Avadim hayinu, and Bitechilah ovedei AZ OTOH, are in first person and
> as
> AFAIK were written for the Hagaddah. (Dayeinu too, for that matter.)

Avadim Hayinu itself is from Parshat V'etchanan, but I assume you mean the
later parts of the paragraph...

Stuart

Hi All,
The Vilna Gaon paskens based on "shivat yamim tochal matzot" that there is a
mitzvah to actually eat matza all the days of Pesach.
I was discussing this idea over Yom Tov wondering why Hashem would want
this. It seems to me that once we have finished the seder and transitioned
from Avdut to Cheirut, that having actually eating Lechem Oni shouldn't be a
mitzva.
An answer that came up was that while yes, we were freed from Mitzrayim at
the beginning of Pesach, until Kriyat Yam Suf, we were still effectively
slaves as we had the ability to turn around at any moment and go back. Only
once we finally crossed over the ocean and reached the true point of trust
in Hashem ("Vayaaminu ba'Hashem...") could we truly be considered free.
Has anyone heard any other answers for this?

Thanks,
~Liron
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On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> SBA wrote:
>> Lechore, there may be no chiyuv even for
>> those who are makpid to always wash for DShB - as one is supposed to eat
>> less than a Kezayis of Karpas.

> Why should this make a difference?  Surely one washes without a bracha
> even for less than a kebeitza of bread.

Tangentially I just washed for matza about 20 minutes ago
Later I decided to nosh on pickles by hand

Q: Do I need to wash again?

[ps I washed w/o a bracha just in case]
====================================================

As I posted earlier, those who eat less than a kzayis - AIUI- do so
davka to avoid the s'feik bracha on washing.

AISI - those who want to nosh on addamah after karpas they should NOT
be toveil more than a k'zayis


-- 
Kol Tuv - Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 10:18 AM, SBA <sba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: "Prof. Levine"
>> A friend of mine once told me that the minhag of not eating kitnyos became
>> widespread after the potato was introduced in 1536 to Europe from the New
>> World and it use spread.  Without kitnyos or potatoes there would have been
>> almost nothing to eat.

>  I don't think that is correct.
> In fact, I have heard the opposite - that 'noch a mazel' that when they
> banned Kitniyos potatoes had not yet been introduced to the Old World.
> For if they had, they too would have met the fate of Kitniyos.

There are many reasons given for gzeria on  qitniyyos
   1. Since they grow near grain, therefore they migh have dagan mixed in
   AFAIK not applicable to potatoes
   2. They produce "flour"  Potato starch could be a problem

The nafka minas are numerous

For example #1 might make MEI Qitniyos assur while #2 would not.

That is perhaps why peanut oil [at worst mei qitniyos] is more leninet than
the peanuts themselves which COULD be made into flour!

AISI, Corn Syrup or Corn Oil also has no issue of #2

And since peanuts and corn [maize] are not Vaday qitniyos AISI corn
syrup and peanut oil [provided they have a good hashgacha] is a sf'eik
sfeiak hehattir.

So even if I were machmir on say lima bean oil, I see no reason to be
machmir on corn oil or peanut oil.

-- 
Kol Tuv - Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:18:54AM +1000, SBA wrote:
: In fact, I have heard the opposite - that 'noch a mazel' that when they
: banned Kitniyos potatoes had not yet been introduced to the Old World.
: For if they had, they too would have met the fate of Kitniyos.

The Chayei Adam included potatoes as qitniyos.

About this, the Divrei Chaim (R' Chaim Halberstam of Sanz, 1793-1876)
is quoted as saying that the CA is trying to deprive us of chayei adam!
(Much like the original claim about why potatoes weren't included.)

The CA mentions that in 1771 they were permitted because of a famine
that year that narrowed ones range of alternatives.

RMF (IM OC 3:63) gives the rule that the minhag couldn't include things
that weren't known of yet. But then, that rule doesn't explain the common
avoidance of corn and peanuts (among Ashk). He therefore suggests that
the need for /some/ starch in one's menu was a second factor.

Personally, I think the notion of considering corn syrup to be mei
qitniyos is simply adding insult to injury. It's so far removed from
the original minhag, which itself is pretty hard to explain... (I think
the "true cane sugar Coke" people are behind it. <grin>)

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 4th day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Chesed: When is Chesed an
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           imposition on others?

Richard Wolpoe wrote:

> As I posted earlier, those who eat less than a kzayis - AIUI- do so
> davka to avoid the s'feik bracha on washing.

No, it's to avoid the bracha achrona, so that the ha'adamah can apply
also to the maror, which is not part of the meal, and so is not covered
by the hamotzi.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher


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