Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 69

Wed, 22 Apr 2009

• 1. Kinyan on Shabbas?? (Harvey Benton)
• 2. Re: Selling Chametz (Harry Weiss)
• 3. Re: Selling open boxes (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: [Areivim] No Basis for Prevalent Post Passover Practice (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Did You Know? (Michael Kopinsky)
• 6. Re: Shemiras Halashon - A Quick Review and a Proposal (Daniel Israel)
• 7. Re: Dr. Berkovits and R' Marc Angel (Michael Makovi)
• 8. Coincidences? You Decide. (Cantor Wolberg)
• 9. Women at Duchenen (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Re: Did You Know? (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: [Areivim] No Basis for Prevalent Post Passover Practice (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 12. Re: Women at Duchenen (Simon Montagu)
• 13. Re: Women at Duchenen (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 14. Re: Selling open boxes (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Kinyan on Shabbas?? (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: Did You Know? (Micha Berger)
• 17. Where Bread Comes From (Micha Berger)
• 18. Re: Selling open boxes (Zev Sero)
• 19. Re: Where Bread Comes From (Rich, Joel)

All agree that Har Sinai occurred on Shabbas (whether on 6 or 7 of Sivan). 
Can one make a valid Kinyan on Shabbas as was done btwn.  Bnei Yisrael and
Hashem that day on Har Sinai???

> From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
>
> A question for Avodah: Many items are not sellable used and open. If
> someone sells everything (eg before heading for the hotel), is the sale
> of half a box of Cheerios really chal?

It could be a real problem if that is all one is selling, but if one is
also bottles of good scotch, canned goods etc. it should be okay.  People
frequently sell as it lots that inlcudes good stuff and a bunch of junk.

There are numreous liquidators that buy everything someone (personal or
business) at a location and then resell what they can.

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, April 20, 2009 11:55 am, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
> : Similarly, selling half a box of cheerios may not be worth exactly
> : half of the original purchase price, but I see no reason why someone
> : couldn't buy it if they so desired.
> 
> Don't you think we've descended well into asmachta / haaramah when we
> discuss a family going away to a hotel for Yom Tov, and selling open
> package after open package?
> 
> It's one thing to throw in a bad element in a large deal -- you get
> all this stuff, if you take that half a box of cereal that my children
> rifled through too. It's another when speaking of dozens of half-used
> packages, that while they *could* buy if they so desired, they aren't
> plausibly likely to desire it.

I don't follow this whole line of argument at all.  The buyer plainly
*does* want the goods, vehora'ayoh, he's agreed to buy them at their
market value.  In the case of opened packages, that value is very low.
He's certainly not willing to overpay for them, but at their proper
value why should he not want them, every bit as much as he wants the
rest of the stuff?

We are not mindreaders, and it's no concern of ours *why* he wants
the chametz, just that he does.  For all we care he intends to collect
the lot and set it on fire, or ship it to Africa to feed the starving
children his mother would tell him about.  But in fact we know perfectly
well what he intends to do with all the chametz: he's buying it all with
the intent of flipping it for a profit.  He's hoping to find a buyer who
will take the whole lot off his hands in one easy transaction, and save
him the trouble of going around collecting it from the various addresses
where it's stored.  That would make his deal rather like those people
a few years ago who used to buy properties and flip them before the
original owners had even had a chance to move out.  Perhaps such a buyer
can be found among the owners of dollar store chains; that's none of his
concern, any more than his intentions are any of ours.  But he's fairly
confident that one way or another, within 8 days such a buyer will be
found.

I don't see how any of this is in any way less than 100% legitimate.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Moshe Feldman wrote:
 
> Simple: we can rely on ha'arma much more easily for a derabbanan 
> (chametz she'avar alav ha'pesach) than for a deoraisa (possessing 
> chametz during Pesach).

We don't even have to come on to that (there's another Yiddishism
for you, RTK; I'm perfectly aware that it has no meaning in English).
Even if ChShAhP would be de'oraisa (or rather have the strength of
a de'oraisa) this would be OK.  ChShAhP is a kenas; we can't buy it
in order to punish the person who held it over Pesach, by denying
him the benefit of being able to sell it.  If he can't sell it, then
next year he won't keep it over Pesach.  But in our case he had the
right to act as he did!  Even those who choose to regard mechiras
chametz as a bit dubious, and are machmir not to use it for themselves,
must surely acknowledge that it does have the support of most poskim,
and therefore those who do rely on it are acting within their rights,
and do not deserve to be punished.

Let's suppose there were a similar issur on doing business with any
Jew who eats chelev, in order to punish him and induce him to mend
his ways.  It seems obvious to me that we would nevertheless be allowed
to deal with the Benei Rhenus, the Rhineland Jews who ate what we
regard as chelev de'oraisa, but for which they had a legitimate heter.
After all, the Shulchan Aruch even allows us to eat in their homes and
from their pots, which we assume not to be benei yoman.  Surely they
would not be affected by such a kenas.

And according to the author of the teshuva incorrectly ascribed to the
Ramo, which says the Moravian Jews have ne'emonus even though they
drink goyishe wine, because we assume they are relying in good faith
on an *illegitimate* heter they once got, surely the same would apply;
they would not be covered by any kenas that was imposed on drinkers of
stam yeinam.

Haint kol shekein in our case, where the heter is not only legitimate
but the majority view and widely accepted, no kenas can apply to those
who rely on it, even if a significant minority choose not to rely on
the heter for themselves.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 7:38 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

> Cantor Wolberg wrote:
>
>> I'm curious if any of you realized that as there are 355 days in a
>> non-leap year,
>>
>
> Only if it's a long year (shlemah), which only 46% of non-leap years
> are. A normal year (kesidrah) is 354 days, and a short year (chasera)
> is 353 (16% of all non-leap years).  Leap years are 383, 384, or 385.
>

Unless I'm missing something, it seems like shelema years are still a
plurality of non-leap years. Is that correct?

KT,
Michael
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Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> I would therefore love to see more sefarrim based upon this model
> addressing different topics. The number of topcis is nearly infinte
> but here are some
>  
>    1. Iyyun Tefillah
>    2. Chaggim
>    3. Business ethtics [eg Moznei Tzedekf fari treatment of customers]
>    4. Managment Ethics [lo sallin fair treatment of employees]
>    5. Bikku Cholim
>    6. Nichum Aveilim

Isn't 3-6 just the CC's sefer Ahavas Chesed?

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

The previous post of mine,
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol26/v26n067.shtml#17, has some text
cut off. As posted, the post says,
> that Rabbi Moshe Shmuel Glasner required Mashiah's coming for a
> Sanhedrin. He notes that the Dor Revi'i supported Rabbi
> Fishman/Maimon's effort to reinstate the Sanhedrin.

It should, however, have an additional line, prior to the three lines
quoted above:
> R' David Glasner pointed out to me that I am in error in my assertion
> ...

Michael Makovi

R' Zev wrote:
Only if it's a long year (shlemah), which only 46% of non-leap years
are. A normal year (kesidrah) is 354 days, and a short year (chasera)
is 353 (16% of all non-leap years).  Leap years are 383, 384, or 385.

However, it is still remarkable even if you look at it as a sequence:  
i.e. 353, 354, and 355 (shana).
Also, my posting specifically targeted non-leap years. We all are  
aware that leap years are longer.

I'm reminded of the fascinating gematria of the ages of the ovos and  
Yosef hatzaddik and Moshe Rabbeinu:

Avraham died at 175 which is equivalent to 7x5?
Yitzchok  died at 180 which is equivalent to 5x6?
Yaakov    died at 147 which is equivalent to 3x7?
As if this weren't coincidental enough, Yosef died at 110 which is  
equivalent to 1x5?+6?+7?.
Yosef is the successor in the pattern and the sum of his predecessors  
(5?+6?+7?).

As if all of the above isn't impressive, Moshe Rabbeinu lived to the  
proverbial and legendary age of 120.
This is equivalent to 2? +4? +6? +8?.
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I received the message below from someone on my list who lives in 
Switzerland. Does anyone have any information about it? YL

Dear Prof. Levine,

There is a strange Minhag here in Zurich:

Some women during Duchenen (Birkat Kohanim) on Yom Tov turn to side
(90 degrees) or turn their back to the Kohen (turn of 180 degrees).
I imagine the reason this started is that since the men cover
themselves with the Talit, and women do not have a Talit, some
thought they attain the same purpose, not looking at the Kohanim, by
turning themselves.

But this seems to be a mistake: the covering with the Talit is mainly
for keeping concentration, as explained in the Shulchan Aruch and his
commentaries.

And this Minhag seems to be against Halacha: The Shulchan Aruch OCh
128,23 writes that during Duchenen the listeners and the Kohanim have
to be "face to face". This is based on Rambam Mishne Torah Tefila
14,7, and ultimately on the Gemara Sota 38a.

Do you know of this Minhag? What could it be based on? Or is it a
Minhag Shtus which should be abolished?

Could you ask your audience if someone knows of this Minhag? They
would have to ask their wives - here even the Rabbanim did not know
about it, because they do not look at the Ezrat Nashim, especially
during Duchenen, and nobody ever told them.

Thank you very much.


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Michael Kopinsky wrote:

> Unless I'm missing something, it seems like shelema years are still a 
> plurality of non-leap years. Is that correct?

A plurality, yes, but it's still a minority; most years, even if we
confine ourselves to non-leap years, are *not* 355 days long.  So how
can one say that "there are 355 days in a non-leap year"?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Zev:
> And according to the author of the teshuva incorrectly ascribed to
> the Ramo, which says the Moravian Jews have ne'emonus even though they
> drink goyishe wine, because we assume they are relying in good faith
> on an *illegitimate* heter they once got, surely the same would apply;
> they would not be covered by any kenas that was imposed on drinkers of
> stam yeinam.

Do you have more info on how this is not the Rema's own teshuva?

IOW who discovered it was not the Rema's?
Who actually did author it etc.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
> I received the message below from someone on my list who lives in
> Switzerland. Does anyone have any information about it? YL
>
> Dear Prof. Levine,
>
> There is a strange Minhag here in Zurich:
>
> Some women during Duchenen (Birkat Kohanim) on Yom Tov turn to side
> (90 degrees) or turn their back to the Kohen (turn of 180 degrees).

This practice was quite common, among both men and women, in England
thirty years or so ago, in spite of the fact that rabbis invariably
condemned it as Minhag Shtut. I don't know if it still happens today.

Dr. Levine:
> And this Minhag seems to be against Halacha: The Shulchan Aruch OCh128,23
> writes that during Duchenen the listeners and the Kohanim haveto be
> "face to face". This is based on Rambam Mishne Torah Tefila14,7, and
> ultimately on the Gemara Sota 38a

> Do you know of this Minhag? What could it be based on? Or is it aMinhag
> Shtus which should be abolished?

RRW: yes I have heard of it from "uneducated" Yekkes...

AFAIK it is a minhag ta'us or shtus because it is against halacha. YES,
It is rare for me to say this.

Dr. Levine
> Could you ask your audience if someone knows of this Minhag? Theywould
> have to ask their wives - here even the Rabbanim did not knowabout it,
> because they do not look at the Ezrat Nashim, especiallyduring Duchenen,
> and nobody ever told them.

RRW: 
> To me minhag has authority over time because lack of Lmacha'ah". Therefore
> any Minhag out of sight of poskim is not really a reliable minhag.
> Iow you can only "bank Upon" a minhag that has had "peer review"

Raya?
The case of Hillel when eve of Seder was on shabbos re: karban pesach
And
Re: Rebbe fasting erev pesach when on shabbos.  

Conclusion: anything infrequent or out of sight is not reliable.

I plan to follow up with 1 or 2 more similar illustrations on
Nishma-minhag BEH

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 11:04:11PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: We are not mindreaders, and it's no concern of ours *why* he wants
: the chametz, just that he does...

If this were true in general, asmachta and haaramah wouldn't be halachic
topics. At times we are mindreaders, and say that the contract isn't
being taken seriously.

When a non-Jew is buying a collection of open edibles handled by a bunch
of strangers in a kitchen of unknown hygeine, I wonder how that line
isn't crossed.

Obviously this is just an observation, not a she'eilah, because the
answer is trivial -- the line is simply further out than my gut would
put it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 12th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Gevurah: What aspect of judgment
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  forces the "judge" into submission?

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 03:13:48PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: All agree that Har Sinai occurred on Shabbas (whether on 6 or 7
: of Sivan). Can one make a valid Kinyan on Shabbas as was done btwn.
: Bnei Yisrael and Hashem that day on Har Sinai???

You're speaking of accepting a gift on Shabbos because it's similar
to maqach umemkar in that there is a qinyan involved. A kind of remote
shevus.

Sukkah 41b allows accepting a 4 minim set as a gift on Yom Tov. We all do
this, a matanah al menas lehachzir -- and thus two qinyanim. Beitzah 17a
discusses giving someone flour on Yom Tov, but the Ran says the case is
only as a gift, not with a formal qinyan (eg sudar). (The SA OC 527:20
repeats the gemara, the MB holds like the Ran.) And yet the MB (306 s"q
33) says that it's assur to gift a gift on Shabbos -- no qualifiers.

Perhaps the MB holds like the Mordechai (Beitzah on pg Rif 23b, #676),
that allows receiving a gift only letzorekh mitzvah. What is good and
commonplace for the 4 minim as letzorekh mitzvah certainly can't be a
problem WRT kol hatorah kolah!

The Magein Avraham (OC 306 s"q 15) has a different limitation -- letzorekh
Shabbos. But then, accepting the Torah is arguably letzorekh Shabbos as
well. The mitzvah of Shabbos that we have today dates to Sinai, not Marah.

Which also raises the question of pre-Sinaitic observance of mitzvos in
the face of HQBH giving the navi what would at certainly be a hora'as
sha'ah even if against halakhah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 12th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Gevurah: What aspect of judgment
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  forces the "judge" into submission?

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 02:31:09PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: A plurality, yes, but it's still a minority; most years, even if we
: confine ourselves to non-leap years, are *not* 355 days long.  So how
: can one say that "there are 355 days in a non-leap year"?

A year that's called "shaleim" and yet not "me'uberes" has 355. It
would seem to be more whole and normal than other shanos. (As opposed
to calling it a yeser or something.) Even if it doesn't constitute
the majority.

And I think this whole thing is being way overanalyzed.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Areivim, we are discussing shlissel challah. (Challah with a key
baked inside used on the Shabbos after Pesach.) A segulah for parnassah.
One member wrote that she adopted the practice because, "when we recognize
from whence it comes, we hopefully can pray harder for it!" I suggested
that the timing, a reminder of Who holds the mafteiach for rain and
parnasah right before spring farming, is apt. (The minhag didn't arise
in Israel, where this would be the end of the rainy season. I don't know
if it would.)

Shlissel challah made it to the point of minhag in some parts of Eastern
Europe and Chasidus.

And it made it to "chumrah of the month" new chiyuv in the environs of
one of our Israeli members.

Then, of course, people objected to this notion.

To me, much of this discussion rings hollow. I have a similar problem
with RYBS's claim that Judaism doesn't have "rituals".

Do you wash your hands in particular order a particular number of times
before bread, and a different sequence upon waking up?

Does your qiddush on Shabbos start with the word "Barukh"? How about
havdalah? Why are you saying all those extra words?

How about Qabbalas Shabbos?

This notion that something is pointless because it's extrahalachic is
not how Judaism was ever done. Most of our minhagim started by people
adopting practices becuase they aid the practitioner's avodas Hashem.

(A minority are self-imposed siyagim, to avoid cheit by error or habit,
rather than to promote a thought.)

One could legitimately attack segulos on the grounds of tamim tihyeh,
and their implicit "al menas leqapel peras" atittude toward avodas
H'.

Or simply because we're changing fast enough right now to be weary of
all change.

But to object to someone adopting a practice that serves as a mnemonic
for bitachon? As I said, that's simply not how Judaism was ever done.
(To equivicate: Except, perhaps, among followers of the Rambam.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 13th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Gevurah: To what extent is judgment
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   necessary for a good relationship?

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 11:04:11PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:

>> We are not mindreaders, and it's no concern of ours *why* he wants
>> the chametz, just that he does...

> If this were true in general, asmachta and haaramah wouldn't be halachic
> topics. At times we are mindreaders, and say that the contract isn't
> being taken seriously.

Devarim shebelev einam devarim.  It doesn't matter how seriously he
takes it, or doesn't.  Asmachta is irrelevant; there is no future
commitment to do anything.  I don't know what ha'arama has to do with
it, maybe you meant ona'ah, which is only relevant if there was a
misrepresentation of the market price.  Since the mechira is at the
market price, whatever it should turn out to be, there can be no
ona'ah.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

But to object to someone adopting a practice that serves as a mnemonic
for bitachon? As I said, that's simply not how Judaism was ever done.
(To equivicate: Except, perhaps, among followers of the Rambam.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
I'd suggest reading the Rambam at the beginning of hilchot avodah Zara
as to how avodah Zara was started by some well meaning folks.

To  paraphrase Arthur C. Clarke's famous insight (Any sufficiently
advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic),Any sufficiently
advanced mnemonic for bitachon is indistinguishable from superstition
:-)

KT
Joel Rich
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