Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 93

Wed, 20 May 2009

• 1. Targumim from Sinai (Simon Montagu)
• 2. Closing of the Volozhin Yeshiva (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Re: Targumim from Sinai (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 4. Re: Targumim from Sinai (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 5. Re: Mordechai and Esther (Celejar)
• 6. Simchas Yom Tov (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: Closing of the Volozhin Yeshiva (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Mordechai and Esther (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Simchas Yom Tov (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 10. ?????: Simchas Yom Tov (Shlomo Pick)
• 11. Re: Targumim from Sinai (Zev Sero)
• 12. Elu Ovrin -peshat (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)

RSBA reminded me in an Areivim thread that the Targumim are from
Sinai. This surprised me at first, because my memory was that at most
they are described as "beRuahh hakodesh", but I was wrong: the Taz on
SA OH 285 SK 2 explicitly says "hatargum yesh lo ma`ala she-nittan
besinai".

I have a number of questions on this.

1) Is there an earlier source?
2) How can this be reconciled with the gemara in Megilla? I can
imagine one possibility: the targum was given as part of TBSP and
Onkelos was the first to write it down. IMHO this fits well with the
phrasing "amaro mipi RE veRY", but does anyone say so?
3) Does it include Yonatan BU and Yerushalmi, or only Onkelos?

At 06:25 AM 5/20/2009, R. Micha wrote:

>When the documents were made public with the declassification of much
>of the KGB's inherited material from the Czars' era, it turns out this
>wasn't why Volozhin closed. At least, it's not the entire story, although
>it could be part of a "perfect storm" of causes.
>
>Gov't records claim they shut it down, not R' Chaim, and it was because
>the battles over successtion between RCB and RCB (R' Chaim Brisker and R'
>Chaim Berlin) seemed to be dangerously close to Alexander III's fear of
>anarchy. He already suspected the Jews of fomenting chaos to destabilize
>his gov't.
>
>Prof Shaul Stamper rewrote chapter 8 of his "HaYeshiva haLita'it
>beChituvatah" (a/k/a "Lithuanian Yeshivas of the 19th Cent") when the
>records were released to reflect this change in understanding. Because
>this overturned commonly accepted knowledge, the documents are included
>as an appendix to part I (Volozhin).
>
>RNKamenetsky agrees with Stampfer's acceptance of the documents at
>face value.
>
>Li nir'eh it's possible that simply between both factors, it just wasn't
>worth fighting the gov't anymore.

Rabbi Dr. J. J. Schacter discuses this in his Haskalah,Secular 
Studies and the Close of the Yeshiva in Volozhin in 1892 which can be 
downloaded at http://www.yutorah.org/_shiurim/TU2_Schachter.pdf

YL

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On Tue, 19 May 2009 23:59:29 -0700
Simon Montagu <simon.mont...@gmail.com> wrote:

> RSBA reminded me in an Areivim thread that the Targumim are from
> Sinai. This surprised me at first, because my memory was that at most
> they are described as "beRuahh hakodesh", but I was wrong: the Taz on
> SA OH 285 SK 2 explicitly says "hatargum yesh lo ma`ala she-nittan
> besinai".

You want to read Rav M. M. Kasher's typically masterful discussion
under the rubric "Targum Mi'Sinai" in his Torah Sheleimah (Vol. XVII,
pp. 315-319).

> I have a number of questions on this.
> 
> 1) Is there an earlier source?

Yes - Taz is apparently echoing Semag citing Rav Amram Gaon citing Rav
Natronai Gaon; R. Kasher discusses this Semag at length.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

Simon
> 3) Does it include Yonatan BU and Yerushalmi, or only Onkelos?

Targum Yonassan on Humash is meyuchas to Yonassan ben Uziel but it is
not his. It incorporates a lot of midrashic material

OTOH YBU on Nach is AFAIK his own work and predates Onkelos a few
generations

-RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Tue, 19 May 2009 22:06:27 -0400
Saul Guberman <saulguber...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  Yitzhak Grossman  wrote:
> 
> >
> > There's a lot of speculation out there that Mordechai and Esther derive
> > from Marduk and Ishtar, but a quick googling indicates that it is just
> > that - speculation.  There seems to be no actual evidence for the
> > hypothesis, and some scholars reject it, e.g.:
> >
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=RxYXAAAAYAAJ&;printsec=titlepage#PPA77,M1
> >
> > Anyone know anything interesting about this?
> >
> 
> Per Rabbi Menchem Leibtag:
> http://www.tanach.org/purim.htm
>   The name Mordechai is probably the most provocative word in the entire
> Megilla for it stems from the name of the Babylonian deity -Marduk (see II
> Kings 25:27 & Yeshayahu 39:1!).

Interesting, but as I said, pure speculation.  The fact that "Merodach"
appears in Yeshayah as the name of a Babylonian king (the text of the
lecture that I see doesn't mention Melachim, and the verse in Yeshayahu
is referring to a monarch, not a deity) is hardly compelling evidence
that "Mordechai" is derived from the name of an Aramaic deity.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

At 06:25 AM 5/20/2009, R. S. Pick wrote:

>The following argument was suggested:
>
>There are opinions that allow one to daven early and even make
>
>Kiddush early. Also, waiting to daven after Tzeis is a D'Rabbonon.
>
>However, simchas Yom Tov is a D'oreisa. Most people do not enjoy
>
>beginning to eat at say 9:30. For kids it is particularly difficult.
>
>Therefore, davening after Tzeis and then beginning to eat late
>
>conflicts with the simchas Yom Tov of many. How can this D'Rabbonon
>
>take precedence over simchas Yom Tov?
>
>In the areivim list I suggested that concerning simchas yom tov at nite:
>
>Not so simple about that simchas yom tov, some authorities hold there is no
>simchas yom tov at nite, but only in the daytime in accordance with korbanot
>hachag. Accordingly, eat your beef and drink that wine in the day time.  The
>only nite that simcha is mandated is leil shmini atzeres which has a special
>limud (ribbui).
>
>
>
>Now that the above argument has become more sophisticated with d'rabbanons
>and d'oraitas involved, let's not forget that most mainstream rishonim and
>posekim hold that keriyat shma should be recited after tzeis.  This was then
>combined with birchot keriyas shma to be recited after tzeis. The Rosh who
>represents minhag ashkenaz and others record that one should say tefila with
>the congregation but wait with keriyat shma and brachos until after tzeis
>According to all these posekim, davening immediately after sunset is a
>bedieved situation.  Mention was made of Jacob Katz's article about the
>development of the custom to daven early, and how with the vilna gaon and
>the Chassidim and the advent of normal clocks, they went back to the old
>time religion of the first mishna of brachot and wait with arvit so that
>keriyas shma and brachot should be said on time.
>
>So perhaps the argument should be reversed: on the day of accepting the
>torah one should look not look for kulos (lenient rulings) but return to the
>pristine halakha of the very first mishna in sha'as as poskened by the
>majority of rishonim and posekim and say keriyat shma with brachot bezmano.


I am the one who wrote the first paragraph above about starting to 
eat at 9:30. First of all, I am wrong about the time here in 
Brooklyn. The YI of J will daven Maariv at 9:08 next Thursday night. 
Allowing 20 minutes for Maariv and 10 minutes for me to walk home 
means that I will not be home before 9:40. Other nearby shuls will 
start Maariv even later. Shkia on 5/28 in Brooklyn is 8:17 PM. Some 
shuls will wait 60 minutes after Shkia to start Maariv, others 72 
minutes. Those who daven with these minyanim  will start to eat even later.

Let me, for the sake of argument,  grant you that there is no simchas 
Yom Tov at night. What about causing one's family members Tzar or at 
least considerable inconvenience to one's family and guests? Is one 
allowed to do this for a minhag or even a D'Rabbonon. I do not know.

What I do know is what was written in the article "Setting Limits 
Based on the Insights of Harav Mendel Zaks, zt'l"  that appeared  in 
the Hamodia Magazine on March 18, 2009. I have posted this article 
with the permission of the Hamodia at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/hamodia/setting_limits.pdf

The author, Rabbi Moshe Hubner, writes:

"On the other hand, the Beis Hamikdash was a stationary building; 
Bnei Yisrael were never going to move it to a location outside 
Yerushalayim. Therefore, the more donations were accepted, the more 
mitzvos the givers would acquire and the more glorious the Beis 
Hamikdash would appear, at nobody else's expense.

Harav Zaks stresses that this should teach us all a great lesson in 
consideration. In attempting to fulfill a commandment, a person must 
first consider the impact of the mitzvah on others. Even if a deed 
appears good or charitable, one must contemplate and project the 
outcome beforehand. An individual will not receive the same benefit 
and reward for doing a mitzvah if it creates a burden for someone else."

In many homes starting to eat after 9:30 does indeed create a burden 
for others. (This is why early minyanim of Erev Shabbos after Pesach 
are so popular in many places.) Given this and the fact that there 
are those who say that one can daven early, I fail to see why one 
would wait.  It seems to me that the truly religious approach would 
be to have concern for one's family and daven early.

I have been told that Reb Yisroel Salanter used to say, "The other 
person's gashmius is your ruchnius." (If this is not an accurate 
quote, there are certainly many stories about him to show that this 
is the way he conducted himself.) Why not do the ruchnius thing?


Yitzchok Levine 
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On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 07:39:27AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: Rabbi Dr. J. J. Schacter discuses this in his Haskalah,Secular 
: Studies and the Close of the Yeshiva in Volozhin in 1892 which can be 
: downloaded at http://www.yutorah.org/_shiurim/TU2_Schachter.pdf

More points about the history.

It's clear from Makor Barukh (My Uncle the Netziv pp 206-207) that the
Netziv would have had to fight the 1982 decree. It closed the yeshiva
after dark, made limudei chol from 9 to 3 -- which isn't that much before
a winter sunset in Volozhin (or in NY, for that matter -- what, 1:30 of
learning), and the rabbanim all had to have degrees in education. Neither
he nor the R's Chaim would bother.

This is unlike the decree 5 years earlier, to introduce Russian language
and math, to which Volozhin COMPLIED. There were limudei chol in Volozhin
for its last 5 years. Also from the banned book (slightly before the
last reference, pg 204):
    Anyone with eyes in his head could see that the students of Volozhin
    were quite knowledgeable in secular studies: they took an interest
    in science, history and geography and knew many languages. In fact,
    those students who desired to pursue these disciplines succeeded in
    learning twice as much as any student at a state institution. In
    Volohzin, Torah and derech eretz walked hand in hand, neither one
    held captive by the other. It was the special achievement of the
    Volozhin student that when he left the yeshiva, he was able to
    converse with any man in any social setting on the highest
    intellectual plane. The Volohzin student was able to conquer both
    worlds -- the world of Torah and the world at large. A well-known
    adage among parents who were trying to best educate their children
    was, "Do you want your child to develop into a complete Jew,
    dedicated to Torah and derech eretz? Do you want him to be able to
    mingle with people and get along in the world? Send him to Volozhin!

RSRH wrote a fundraising letter to his kehillah for the Volozhiner yeshiva
and called them fellow travelers of something much like the TiDE path.

In 1982, the Czar's gov't didn't just add chol, it threatened the
viability of teaching Torah.

I'm arguing contributing causes. The Netziv could have fought the
charges of anarchy or the hours of secular education, but not both.
I'm also arguing that the current yeshiva movement is founded on myth
about its anticedant. Not claiming Volozhin was YU, but it wasn't R'
Shach's Ponovizh either. Unfortunately, our splitting into two camps
pushed each camp from the original middle. Volozhin was also more
heterogeneous than either; the insistence on a yeshiva having a "party
line" is newer than that.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 41st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Yesod: What is the ultimate measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     of self-control and reliability?

Part of this discussion, as it meandered on Areivim, was identifying
Mordechai's Jewish name if "Mordechai" was merely his civil one.

RSBA wrote that it was "Pesachyah".
: Ayen Mesechta Shekalim 5:1 "Pesachya zeh Mordechai"

Other candidates: Ezra, Mal'akhi (both identifications made on Megillah
15a). Also, was Balshan a title (Menachos 65a) because of his skill with
languages, or another name?

So we know he had one, we don't know what it is.

Esther = Hadasah is in the megillah, so for her we /know/ there was a
distinct name that was clearly Hebrew.

But whether Mordekhai and Esther were actually named /for/ AZ, Marduk
and Ishtar were two of the three leading gods of their host country. I
can't see how any of his local contemporaries could have heard "Mordechai"
without hearing echos of "Marduk". It's an odd choice of name regardless
of causality.

And Marduk and Ishtar were known in Malkhus Yehudah before he was expeled
from it -- although under Canaani names. Molekh worship went on in a
hellish valley (pun intended) right outside Y-m, and heretics placed
Asheiros right by Har haBayis! Identifying Baal/El with the One True G-d,
they consecrated things to Him and his purpoted "wife", Asheirah. This
is attested to in both Nakh and digs at the mountain.

With the worship already there, and the conquering country and leading
empire using these other names, it is implausible that a homonym was
not noticed. Even if they had perfectly Jewish intent, it would be a
really oddball thing for two close relatives to have names that sounded
so treif and neither was noticed at the time.

And even if the unlikely had happened, it screams Yad Hashem, and would
require analyzing why the RBSO wanted them to be called by something
that the non-Jews would be so at home with. (Not a difficult question.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 41st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Yesod: What is the ultimate measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     of self-control and reliability?

Plz Post

Y Levine:
"I have been told that Reb Yisroel Salanter used to say, "The other
person's gashmius is your ruchnius." (If this is not an accurate quote,
there are certainly many stories about him to show that this is the way he
conducted himself.) Why not do the ruchnius thing?
Yitzchok Levine"

I heard besheim R S Schwab something similar - paraphrasing:

"A tzaddik is one who looks over his OWN ruchniyus and the other person's gashmiyyus"

Implicit, don't impose humros on others, just be machmir upon oneself (legabei orach chayyim etc.)

The humros should be bein adam lechaveiro.  

EG the R Hayyim Brisker (iirc) story regarding milk for arba kossos

-RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Prof Levine wrote

>Let me, for the sake of argument,  grant you that there is no simchas Yom
Tov at night. What about causing one's family members Tzar or at least
considerable inconvenience to one's family and guests? Is one allowed to do
this for a minhag or even a D'Rabbonon. I do not know.

 

Good question.  Mishna brurah says hold Arvit until leilah mamash. Kaf
hachayim also says that also, but adds if that if that is impossible
(perhaps he is alluding to a place that has only one minyan and they are
mekabel yom tov from let?s plag hamincha) and therefore cannot meacher the
tefilah, should still wait until leilah mamash before making Kiddush, and
this he says twice, at the end of 494:1 and in 494:2.  Aruch haShulchan
concurs that Kiddush should be done (ein mekadshin ad Leila mamash).  So
even if one could daven a bit earlier, the Kiddush should be held off.

Now I don?t understand.  In Vilna and Radin where the chafetz chayim (rav
Mendel Zach?s father-in-law and btw, I was tested in RIETS in YU by rav
Zachs for he was the bochen during my time) was active, there were no old
men, or women or za?ar.  And in all of Lithuania where aruch hashulchan was,
there were no elderly, women and children.  Just bachurei yeshiva? And in
Baghdad, which is much earlier than Lita, there were no women and children
and elderly either. Likewise in the Taz?s community and the entire list
found in kaf hachayim. I simply don?t understand, those elderly didn?t have
all our modern conveniences, all that food, bassar veyayin vechol tuv, and
those blintzes, and gashmiyut and certainly the yeshivalite didn?t have it,
and perhaps their hunger pains were greater, and all these gedolei olam say
to wait.  How insensitive to those guests and those poor people who are
waiting for Kiddush and the meal.

 

I am going to add something else.  Professor Daniel Sperber has two volumes
recently published with this agenda in mind ? the friendly posek. The first
is Darka shel Halakha, with such sub-chapter headings as in chapter III
itself entitled Halakhic Super Principles concerning Kavod haBriyot.  This
theme is furthered in his second volume Netivot Pesika which includes the
following chapter:  the friendly Posek and includes the following
subchapters:  Economic sensitivity, sensitivity to the dignity of man and
hsis Za?ar, sensitivity to the family, sanctity of life and pikuach nefesh.
He concludes with a chapter on koach hateira, humility, and striving for the
truth (perhaps that?s in line with this first chapter mandating academic
study of Talmud, including use of manuscripts, academics methods, textual
layers of the mishna and Talmud, historical background etc) all for the
posek looking to be sensitive to the needs of this fellow man, something I
will add that apparently the chafetz chayim in his mishna brurah, or r.
Epstein in his aruch hashulkhan, and r. sofer in kaf hachayim weren?t.

Oh I forgot the main theme of Prof. Sperber?s first book which expands that
theme of kavod habriyot ? giving women aliyot, so that they should not have
za?ar?

Chag sameiach

Shlomo Pick

 

 

  _____  

???: Prof. Levine [mailto:llev...@stevens.edu] 
????: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 5:48 PM
??: avo...@lists.aishdas.org
????: Shlomo Pick
????: Simchas Yom Tov

 

At 06:25 AM 5/20/2009, R. S. Pick wrote:




The following argument was suggested:

There are opinions that allow one to daven early and even make 

Kiddush early. Also, waiting to daven after Tzeis is a D'Rabbonon. 

However, simchas Yom Tov is a D'oreisa. Most people do not enjoy 

beginning to eat at say 9:30. For kids it is particularly difficult. 

Therefore, davening after Tzeis and then beginning to eat late 

conflicts with the simchas Yom Tov of many. How can this D'Rabbonon 

take precedence over simchas Yom Tov?

In the areivim list I suggested that concerning simchas yom tov at nite:

Not so simple about that simchas yom tov, some authorities hold there is no
simchas yom tov at nite, but only in the daytime in accordance with korbanot
hachag. Accordingly, eat your beef and drink that wine in the day time.  The
only nite that simcha is mandated is leil shmini atzeres which has a special
limud (ribbui).

 

Now that the above argument has become more sophisticated with d'rabbanons
and d'oraitas involved, let's not forget that most mainstream rishonim and
posekim hold that keriyat shma should be recited after tzeis.  This was then
combined with birchot keriyas shma to be recited after tzeis. The Rosh who
represents minhag ashkenaz and others record that one should say tefila with
the congregation but wait with keriyat shma and brachos until after tzeis
According to all these posekim, davening immediately after sunset is a
bedieved situation.  Mention was made of Jacob Katz's article about the
development of the custom to daven early, and how with the vilna gaon and
the Chassidim and the advent of normal clocks, they went back to the old
time religion of the first mishna of brachot and wait with arvit so that
keriyas shma and brachot should be said on time.

So perhaps the argument should be reversed: on the day of accepting the
torah one should look not look for kulos (lenient rulings) but return to the
pristine halakha of the very first mishna in sha'as as poskened by the
majority of rishonim and posekim and say keriyat shma with brachot bezmano. 



I am the one who wrote the first paragraph above about starting to eat at
9:30. First of all, I am wrong about the time here in Brooklyn. The YI of J
will daven Maariv at 9:08 next Thursday night. Allowing 20 minutes for
Maariv and 10 minutes for me to walk home means that I will not be home
before 9:40. Other nearby shuls will start Maariv even later. Shkia on 5/28
in Brooklyn is 8:17 PM. Some shuls will wait 60 minutes after Shkia to start
Maariv, others 72 minutes. Those who daven with these minyanim  will start
to eat even later. 

Let me, for the sake of argument,  grant you that there is no simchas Yom
Tov at night. What about causing one's family members Tzar or at least
considerable inconvenience to one's family and guests? Is one allowed to do
this for a minhag or even a D'Rabbonon. I do not know. 

What I do know is what was written in the article "Setting Limits Based on
the Insights of Harav Mendel Zaks, zt'l"  that appeared  in the Hamodia
Magazine on March 18, 2009. I have posted this article with the permission
of the Hamodia at
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/hamodia/setting_limits.pdf

The author, Rabbi Moshe Hubner, writes:

"On the other hand, the Beis Hamikdash was a stationary building; Bnei
Yisrael were never going to move it to a location outside Yerushalayim.
Therefore, the more donations were accepted, the more mitzvos the givers
would acquire and the more glorious the Beis Hamikdash would appear, at
nobody elses expense.

Harav Zaks stresses that this should teach us all a great lesson in
consideration. In attempting to fulfill a commandment, a person must first
consider the impact of the mitzvah on others. Even if a deed appears good or
charitable, one must contemplate and project the outcome beforehand. An
individual will not receive the same benefit and reward for doing a mitzvah
if it creates a burden for someone else."

In many homes starting to eat after 9:30 does indeed create a burden for
others. (This is why early minyanim of Erev Shabbos after Pesach are so
popular in many places.) Given this and the fact that there are those who
say that one can daven early, I fail to see why one would wait.  It seems to
me that the truly religious approach would be to have concern for one's
family and daven early.

I have been told that Reb Yisroel Salanter used to say, "The other person's
gashmius is your ruchnius." (If this is not an accurate quote, there are
certainly many stories about him to show that this is the way he conducted
himself.) Why not do the ruchnius thing? 




Yitzchok Levine

__________ NOD32 4089 (20090519) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
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Simon Montagu wrote:
> RSBA reminded me in an Areivim thread that the Targumim are from
> Sinai. This surprised me at first, because my memory was that at most
> they are described as "beRuahh hakodesh", but I was wrong: the Taz on
> SA OH 285 SK 2 explicitly says "hatargum yesh lo ma`ala she-nittan
> besinai".
> 
> I have a number of questions on this.
> 
> 1) Is there an earlier source?

The gemara in Megillah takes it back at least as far as Ezra.
Also see Rashi Devarim 1:5.


> 2) How can this be reconciled with the gemara in Megilla? I can
> imagine one possibility: the targum was given as part of TBSP and
> Onkelos was the first to write it down. IMHO this fits well with the
> phrasing "amaro mipi RE veRY", but does anyone say so?

What's the problem from the gemara in Megillah?  That gemara
explicitly says that the targum goes back *at least* as far as Ezra,
but doesn't say that Ezra invented it.


> 3) Does it include Yonatan BU and Yerushalmi, or only Onkelos?

If by Targum YBU you mean on Nevi'im, then quite possibly.  Targum
Yerushalmi, OTOH, including the version on the Torah that is published
under the false name of "YBU" ("pseudo-Jonathan"), seems to have been
unknown to the authors of this gemara in Megillah, so it probably
postdates them.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Meforshim seem to struggle on the exact meaning of "elu ovrin" (mishna
Pesachim 3:1) Some read it as if it were Ma'avirin (as meaning these we
are meva'er min ho'olam"

I propose a simple read:
Read it  as if it said
"[AL] elu ovrin"  referring to being over bal yei'ra'eh.
  (NB: one need not change the girsa, just the havvanah).
 
Q:  Am I mechavein to anyone else on this?

It just seems too simple to not have been said already

-RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile



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End of Avodah Digest, Vol 26, Issue 93
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