Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 98

Wed, 27 May 2009

• 1. Re: Simchas Yom Tov (T6...@aol.com)
• 2. Re: Targumim from Sinai (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 3. Re: Targumim from Sinai (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: The MB, Minhagei Lita, and Temimos (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 5. Re: How were Levi'I'm Counted? (Ken Bloom)
• 6. Re: Targumim from Sinai (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 7. Re: Targumim from Sinai (Zev Sero)
• 8. How did the Neviim Write their Sefarim?] (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 9. Re: rules of evidence in halcha (Danny Schoemann)
• 10. Re: study until tired (Zev Sero)
• 11. ?????: Keneged Hahar (Shlomo Pick)
• 12. Re: Keneged Hahar (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 13. Re: Simchas Yom Tov (T6...@aol.com)
• 14. Re: Ruth on Shavuos (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 15. Re: rules of evidence in halcha (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 16. Re: Targumim from Sinai (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 17. Re: Targumim from Sinai (Zev Sero)

 
 
From: Shlomo Pick _pic...@mail.biu.ac.il_ (mailto:pic...@mail.biu.ac.il) 




>>Now I don't understand.  In Vilna and Radin where the  chafetz chayim (rav
Mendel Zach's father-in-law and btw, I was tested in  RIETS in YU by rav
Zachs for he was the bochen during my time) was active,  there were no old
men, or women or za'ar?  And in all of Lithuania where  aruch hashulchan 
was,
there were no elderly, women and children?  Just  bachurei yeshiva? And in
Baghdad, which is much earlier than Lita, there were  no women and children
and elderly either? Likewise in the Taz's community and  the entire list
found in kaf hachayim. I simply don't understand, those  elderly didn't have
all our modern conveniences, all that food, bassar  veyayin vechol tuv, and
those blintzes, and gashmiyut and certainly the  yeshivalite didn't have it,
and perhaps their hunger pains were greater, and  all these gedolei olam say
to wait.  How insensitive to those guests and  those poor people who are
waiting for Kiddush and the  meal.<<




Shlomo  Pick


>>>>>
Regarding the needs of guests, women, children, the elderly and so on --  
who are waiting hungrily for kiddush and the evening meal --  may I  suggest 
that there is no need to fast all day erev Shavuos until after  kiddush?

 


If the evening kiddush and se'udah are going to start at 9:30 or  10:00, 
people should eat a light meal around six o'clock.  The late se'udah  at night 
does not have to be a heavy meal and certainly does not have  to be the 
only meal of the day!  Challah, a main course, a cup of tea and  off to the 
bais medrash to learn [for the menfolk and some of  the liberated womenfolk], 
or time to toddle off to bed [for the  kidlets and old folks and the rest of 
the womenfolk].
 
I don't know exactly why the question of the late meal is coming up now,  
anyway.  Doesn't practically everybody end up eating quite a late meal at  
the seder?  Especially in a year like this when it was already  daylight 
savings time at least in the US?  What's the big deal?
 
--Toby Katz
============
 
 
 


 
 
**************We found the real ?Hotel California? and the ?Seinfeld? 
diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. 
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R"n toby Katz wrote:
> ... but this is what I think it means:  not that the actual
> Aramaic words used by Onkelos were given on Sinai together
> with the Torah [who even spoke Aramaic back then? Why would
> Hebrew-speaking Israelites need a translation in a language
> they did not even speak?]

I've heard it argued that they *did* speak Aramaic for regular conversation. (I don't remember where I heard that. Possibly the Vayoel Moshe. Sorry.)

Akiva Miller

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On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 03:09:16PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: I've heard it argued that they *did* speak Aramaic for regular
: conversation. (I don't remember where I heard that. Possibly the Vayoel
: Moshe. Sorry.)

Lavan, when trying to reinvoke the gods of Terach and Nachor, he speaks
in Aramaic -- "Yigar Sehadusa". Already given was a maqor from
Chazal that Adam harishon spoke it (Sanhedrin 38b).

And in the Yardein somewhere is a pile of stones with the Torah written
on it in 70 languages. One of them is in Aramaic. So, why couldn't it
be the Targum? Other than the technical difficulty of maintaining a
word for word oral tradition.

However:
I could (and did) argue that miSinai means "as sure as Sinai", not
literally dating back to the first Shavuos. I would also argue that
"Aramaic" could equally as well mean "a language other than lashon
haqodesh", which is the role it served through much of our history.
And 70 is more often "many" than an exact number...


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 47th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Malchus: What is glorious about
Fax: (270) 514-1507               unity-how does it draw out one's soul?

R' Rich Wolpoe wrote:
> Years ago I posted that the Litvisher rabbanim I knew said
> that the AhS was the prevailing poseiq in Lita not the MB.
> ... The last 3 doros of Gdolei Psaq in Lita went more or
> less like this: R Yitzchok Elchanan Spektor / AhS / Rav
> Chaim Ozer. Grodzinsky
> However the yeshivisher world has since lionized other
> G'dolim instead.

Ein hachi nami. So what? This is not the first time that the less-popular
in one generation, has become the more-popular just a few generations
later. If I'm not mistaken, it happened with Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel
too.

Akiva Miller

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On Sun, 2009-05-24 at 23:07 +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> Rashi Bamidbar 3:16 
> Levi'I'm were counted "al pi Hashem"
> 
> Does this imply that they did not use Mahatzis Hasheqel?
> 
> Do any Midrashim or Mefarshim elaborate upon this method?

You should take note that the Emek Davar says that Mahatzit HaShekel
wasn't used for even the census of Yisraelim in parshat Bemidbar.
Rather, he explains that ????? ???? means that each person to be counted
brought a slip of paper with his name on it, and put it into a box, and
it is those slips of paper that were counted.

--Ken
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> I've heard it argued that they *did* speak Aramaic for regular
> conversation. (I don't remember where I heard that. Possibly the Vayoel
> Moshe. Sorry.)
> Akiva Miller

Clearly the Torah itself has Aramaic from the time of lavan

Pashtus
From the time of Ever there was Ivris
And
From the time of Aram there was Aramis
Etc.
Isn't that how the 70 leshonos evolved from the bnai no'ach?

-RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

T6...@aol.com wrote:

> I would like further clarification on this point, too, but this is
> what I think it means:  not that the actual Aramaic words used by
> Onkelos were given on Sinai together with the Torah [who even spoke
> Aramaic back then?

Everybody.  At least, everybody who was educated, or who engaged in
international trade.  It was the English of its day.


>  Why would Hebrew-speaking Israelites need a translation in a 
> language they did not even speak?]

Rashi Devarim 1:5

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Arie Folger wrote:
> Thus, according to Abarbanel, we could say that one major difference
> between the Pentateuch and Nakh is that the former was not based on
> earlier sources, but on a direct and complete prophecy from HQBH to
> Moshe, while the latter is the product of a prophecy to include a
> selection of preexisting stories coming from several disparate sources
> (at least twO. the annals of Israel and those of Judah).
>
> ---
>
> IOW, do we have either a tanna demesaye'a lei, or one who refutes? Or
> is Abarbanel alone in even approaching this issue altogether?
>   
Look at the introduction to the Artscroll Divrei haYamim concerning the 
view of the Shaagas Aryeh and others who take a similar approach - at 
least for this sefer

There are medrashim that Moshe had sefer Bereishis prior to Sinai, there is also reference to sefer Milchemes HaShem ***Ramban (Bamidbar
21:13-14): *The simple meaning of the expression in the book of the wars of the Eternal (Bamidbar^  21:14) is that there were wise men
in those generations who used to write down the history of great wars, for such was the custom in all generations. These authors were called moshlim
(they speak in parables v27;29) because they wrote in them their books by means of provers and figures of speech, and when there were victories which they
considered wonderful, they ascribed those wars to G-d, to Whom they are in truth to be attributed. Now the victory of Sihon over Moab was marvellous in
their eyes (Psalms 118:21) therefore they wrote it down in a book speaking of it in figurative langues...and writing abut it in a proverb...Thus when Sihon
captured the cities of Moab those who wrote in parables recorded in the
book which thy are called the "wars of the Eternal" Eth Vahev
b'suphah...Thus Scripture is
bringing a proof from the book of "the Wars of the Eternal" that Arnon is on the border of moab and was forbidden to Israel to capture (Devarim
2:9) wheas the brooks and all the slopes as far as Arnon they were allowed to take for Sihon had captured from the king of Moab all his land until
Arnon, but not Arnn itself....


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> 1. Is there a similar concept in halacha, or do we find both parties liable
> - i.e. the entrapper and the entrapped?
> 2. Is there anything similar to 'inadmissible evidence' - i.e., valid
> evidence that the court will ignore because of the way it was obtained?

Mishna 7:10 in Sanhedrin: If a Meisis - one trying to get others to
worship AZ - is sly and doesn't want to repeat himself in front of 2
people, the victim hides 2 witnesses behind the fence and then goads
the Meisis to repeat himself.

- Danny

Maxi Yedid wrote:
> Shalom
> 
> There is a certain "shita" of limud that several Gedolim were heard to 
> study in this way. The idea is to study until you literally "fall down" 
> from tiredness. 
> (This is quoted in Daat Chochma U Mussar; Meorot Hagedolim and others).
> 
> I had a question though: what they do with the tefilot? did they 
> actually prayed and came back to study or they simply didn't interrupt? 
> and what did they do with shajrit?

Zeman torah lechud, uzman tefilah lechud.   

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Larry wrote:

>>I enjoyed the peshat - and will probably incorporate it somehow over Yom
Tov -  but thought it appropriate to note that it runs counter to another
famous peshat. As per Pesachim (68b), on Shavuos - yom shenitna bo Torah -
everyone agrees "ba'inan nami lakhem", which is commonly explained that
Kabbalat Hatorah cannot be only marked by ruchniyus, but rather must be
integrated into the gashmiyus.

 

Nothing wrong. They came har Sinai and turned their backs on worldliness
which is pure worldliness. After getting the torah, they could now sanctify
that worldliness. In such a case, it?s no longer worldliness but becomes
torah. This is signified in the two tablets of stone. If there?s torah that
it is holy, is light, and even floats by itself. However, if the torah words
disappear, fly up to Heaven to remain there, all you have is weighted down
worldliness, becomes shattered just as one?s life becomes so.

This is not derush, but halakha, as I refer you to OH 131 :1 where there is
a mandate to make all your worldliness holy but having the proper kavanot.

Chag sameiach

Shlomo pick

 

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RSP
> I refer you to OH 131 :1 where there is a mandate to make all your
> worldliness holy but having the proper kavanot.

OH 131?!
Maybe 156?

-RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

 
>> .... there is no need to fast all day erev Shavuos until  after kiddush. 
If the evening kiddush and se'udah are going to start at 9:30 or  10:00, 
people should eat a light meal around six o'clock.  <<  [--TK]


From: "Shlomo Pick" _pic...@mail.biu.ac.il_ (mailto:pic...@mail.biu.ac.il) 


see OH, 529:1 and commentaries that a half hour before mincha ketanah one  
should not be koveiah seuda and this is lechevod yom  tov.

shlomo

 
 
 
>>>>>
I should amend what I said, don't have a "light  meal" at six o'clock, have 
a "light snack."   There is still no need  to fast and no reason to be 
famished until 9:30 or 10 at night.
 
 
--Toby Katz
=========
 
 
 
________________


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On Sun, 24 May 2009 11:12:40 -0700
martin brody <martinlbr...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

> My own favourite is that the Torah is the Book of Loving Kindness, therefore
> we read Ruth because of the kindness she showed to Naomi and Boaz etc.,
> which is reflected in her name, not used often, but means kind. We are more
> used to its antonym, ruthless!

Some brief googling doesn't indicate that the Biblical name Ruth and
the English noun ruth are etymologically related.  Do you have a source?

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

On Tue, 26 May 2009 09:30:21 -0400
"Dov Weinstock" <dov.weinst...@nycadvantage.com> wrote:

> Background - The recent plot to bomb synagogues in Riverdale NY has taken a
> new twist, with reports that the suspects were hapless recruits of an FBI
> informant and that the whole thing smells of entrapment - i.e. there would
> have been no attempt to engage in criminal activity without the FBI egging
> them on.
> 
> Which made me curious about a couple of things.
> 1. Is there a similar concept in halacha, or do we find both parties liable
> - i.e. the entrapper and the entrapped?

I don't think that Halachah has a general notion of absolving one of
responsibility (b'dinei adam) for a crime or sin on the grounds that he
has been entrapped, but there does exist literature on the question of
whether the entrapment itself is permitted, or proscribed by the
injunction of lifnei iver.  See, e.g., Pis'hei Hoshen Geneivah Ch. I n.
72 s.v. be'sefer Torah Lishmah, and R. Spitz's Mishpetei Ha'Torah Vol. I
#78.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

On Tue, 26 May 2009 12:15:00 -0400
Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

> T6...@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > I would like further clarification on this point, too, but this is
> > what I think it means:  not that the actual Aramaic words used by
> > Onkelos were given on Sinai together with the Torah [who even spoke
> > Aramaic back then?
> 
> Everybody.  At least, everybody who was educated, or who engaged in
> international trade.  It was the English of its day.

According to Wikipedia:

"There are inscriptions that evidence the earliest use of the language,
dating from the tenth century BCE. These inscriptions are mostly
diplomatic documents between Aramaean city-states.  The orthography of
Aramaic at this early period seems to be based on Phoenician, and there
is a unity in the written language. It seems that, in time, a more
refined orthography, suited to the needs of the language, began to
develop from this in the eastern regions of Aram. Oddly, the dominance
of Assyrian Empire of Tiglath-Pileser III over Aram in the middle of
the eighth century led to the establishment of Aramaic as a lingua
franca.

From 700 BCE, the language began to spread in all directions, but lost
much of its homogeneity. Different dialects emerged in Mesopotamia,
Babylonia, the Levant and Egypt. However, the Akkadian-influenced
Aramaic of Assyria, and then Babylon, started to come to the fore. As
described in 2 Kings 18:26, Hezekiah, king of Judah, negotiates with
Assyrian ambassadors in Aramaic so that the common people would not
understand. Around 600 BCE, Adon, a Canaanite king, used Aramaic to
write to the Egyptian Pharaoh."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic#Old_Aramaic

So it does not really appear to have been a lingua franca in the era of
Matan Torah.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

Yitzhak Grossman wrote:

> "There are inscriptions that evidence the earliest use of the language,
> dating from the tenth century BCE.

That late, huh?  So what did Lavan speak?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher


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