Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 130

Thu, 09 Jul 2009

• 1. Re: one person saying vayuchulu (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Chuqqas - mixed messages (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 3. Vov K'tia (Cantor Wolberg)
• 4. emuna and consensus (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 5. Challenge: Finding Spirituality w/o Qabbalah (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 6. Re: Challenge: Finding Spirituality w/o Qabbalah (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Tosfot (not) (David Riceman)
• 8. Re: Tosfot (not) (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 9. Re: Challenge: Finding Spirituality w/o Qabbalah (Simon Montagu)
• 10. Re: Challenge: Finding Spirituality w/o Qabbalah (David Riceman)
• 11. Mephivoshes (Gershon Dubin)
• 12. Re: Mephivoshes (Gershon Dubin)
• 13. Re: Challenge: Finding Spirituality w/o Qabbalah (Simon Montagu)
• 14. Re: Challenge: Finding Spirituality w/o Qabbalah (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Challenge: Finding Spirituality w/o Qabbalah (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 16. Re: Challenge: Finding Spirituality w/o Qabbalah (David Riceman)
• 17. Kana'ut (yirmey...@juno.com)
• 18. Re: Challenge: Finding Spirituality w/o Qabbalah (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)

On Sun, Jul 05, 2009 at 02:48:26PM +0300, Shlomo Pick wrote:
: Concerning your observation about one person saying vayuchulu on Friday
: nite, see chazion ish, moed hil shabbos, siman 38 ot yud, s.v. tur siman
: reish samech chet.
: His position is against rishonim, see the discussion in meiri's introduction
: to beis habechira.

His position is only against rishonim if RCB meant it as ikkar hadin.
If, however, he was saying that mishum eidus, it would be more meaningful
to have the hanhagah -- lifnim mishuras hadin -- of not saying it alone,
it's not a setirah to the rishonim.

As RRW often notes, the Gra most likely meant his hanhagos in this way,
and it's only his talmidim (and their talmidim), after his petirah,
who turned one person's hanhagos that he did himself into a new norm.
Confusing a hanhagah tovah that adds meaning for the individual who
relates to that meaning with pesaq.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
mi...@aishdas.org        exactly the right measure of himself,  and
http://www.aishdas.org   holds a just balance between what he can
Fax: (270) 514-1507      acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham

rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: It seems according to many that Moshe Rabbeinu erred by mei meriva in
: that he HIT the rock instead of speaking to it.

Micha:
> Is the problem the change, or the nature of this particular change?
> After all, MRAH was lauded for delaying matan Torah itself!

As we discussed offlist ein hachi nami!

I am seeking a "quality" to the deviations that HKBH would say "yeeshar
Kochecha"
Vs.
The deviations where HKBH would find them dissatisfactory..

It seems
re: the Mishkan and re: the Nechash Nechoshes that despite the dibbur,
MRAH and Betzalel) got the story right

Mishkan: built outside in but ordered inside out. Yet in pequdei all
went ka'asher tziva...

Nechash Neshoshes: Somehow this lashon nofeil al lashon was not a
negative deviation from "saraph" but and enhancment. (The precise "how"
escapes me)


Mei Meriva
Of course here the torah tells us that the deviation diminished a
"Qiddush Hashem" So there the deed shortchanged the tzivvuy instead of
enhancing it.

Botom line Mussar Heskel:

Perhaps there are Two kinds of deviations:

Those that fail to meet the required intention of the tzivvuy

And
Those that EXCEED the minimum, enhance the tzivvuy, w/o any bal
tosif... And perhaps one needs Nevuah or Ruach Haqodesh or perhaps be
an egoless Anav as was MRAH... ?

Do any meforshim pick up on this idea?

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

When God promises Pinchas that His covenant of peace be with him, the  
vov in the word "shalom" is split. Generally, a split or incompletely  
written letter renders the Torah pasul until it is repaired.  
Obviously, I needn't tell this group the various brilliant insights  
and commentaries as to the explanation of the vov k'tia. However, I'd  
like to submit my own
insight. When Pikuach Nefesh is involved, we can violate all but three  
of the Torah's mitzvot.  I submit that the vov k'tia is allowed  
because the act of Pinchas involved Pikuach Nefesh -- hence, the Torah  
is still kosher even with the incomplete letter of the vov.

On a more mystical level, the gematria of vov is six. In mathematics  
six is the second smallest composite number, its proper divisors being  
1, 2 and 3. Since six equals the sum of these proper divisors, six is  
the smallest perfect number. Even though Pinchas did what had to be  
done, it nevertheless damaged the smallest perfect number (vov). I see  
a similarity to the account of Yaakov wrestling with the "angel" and  
even though victorious, he suffered the physical impairment because  
the mysterious man (or angel) touched him on the gid hanasheh causing  
a permanent limp.

ri
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http://serandez.blogspot.com/2009/07/importance-of-back-and-forth.html
this is what looks  like  a series of posts exploring the issues  of 
ikkarim,belief and psak;  whether  one can pasken beliefs; can something 
be both true and a kfira at the same time....


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My friend's thesis is that Judaism w/o Qabbalah or Hassidus is mechanical
and lifeless.

And so he challenged me as follows: To List aspects of Jewish Spirituality
that were devoid of Qaballah or Hassidus.

I came up with my own list.

Any other takers out there?

Caveat: Remember that a Sefer like Mesillas Yesharim was written by
Ramchal - and so my friend woud claim that it ostensibly has Qabbalistic
overtones

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 02:13:15PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: Caveat: Remember that a Sefer like Mesillas Yesharim was written by
: Ramchal - and so my friend woud claim that it ostensibly has Qabbalistic
: overtones

It's very hard to see anything esoteric in MY. (And I'm teaching MY
next year in a "Center for Mindfulness" to a group of C Jews. So I've
actually actively looked for something to tease out some interest from
them that way.)

Horeb gives a path to spirtuality, but Dayan Grunfeld and R' Breuer
argued that it's heavily drawn from the Zohar.

Or Yisrael (RYS) has far less qabbalah, but he drew ideas from MY,
so if the Ramchal pulled qabbalah in... But im kein, ein ladavar sof;
everything was touched by it. ("Everything" is guzma; I don't mean to
include the Darda'im and other pocket communities.)

The Moreh, third cheileq, I presume gives one. But the Rambam's whole
intellectualization of spirituality -- ahavah means loving Him, mitzvos
are to create the right thoughts, etc... -- stretches the intuitive
definition of spirituality.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
mi...@aishdas.org        he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
http://www.aishdas.org   Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
Fax: (270) 514-1507      a spirit of purity.      - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Me:
> : IIRC Urbach discusses the composition and transmission of the 
> printed : Tosafos in chapters one and thirteen of his book Baalei 
> HaTosafot.
>   
RMB (seconded by RJR)
> Given that few people have the book, isn't this just a tease?
>   
If more battei midrash would buy scholarly books it would save wear and 
tear on my bank account and clutter in my study.  Anyway here goes (I'm 
translating from the fourth edition Mossad Bialik, Jerusalem, 5740):

"Up to the beginning of Hebrew printing [different communities] used 
different tosafot.  In Italy it seems Tosafot R. Peretz were widespread, 
in Germany <Ashkenaz> Tosafot Tuch (Touque), and in Spain Tosafot 
HaRosh.  There were also other collections <Tosafot yeshanim> of Tosafot 
including the Ri, the Rivam, R. Yosef, Tosafot Shantz (Sens), R. Judah 
of Paris, R. Baruch, and others.  As we explained, later tosafot 
replaced <dahaku> earlier tosafot." p. 28

"There are few manuscripts of Talmud which include tosafot.  To the 
extent that they have survived they include our tosafot [the tosafot 
printed in the standard editions of Shas].  Tosafot Berachot was first 
printed in 5244 in Soncino by R. Yehoshua Shlomo, and they are the first 
printed tosafot, since the printed fragments of Talmud from Spain 
include neither Rashi nor tosafot.  R. Yehoshua Shlomo's nephew, the 
famous printer R. Gershom Soncino, printed until 5279, and claimed that 
he printed 23 tractates including tosafot.  He says about their source: 
"I found manuscripts which had been hidden and sealed until now, and I 
revealed them to the eye of the sun, may they shine like the firmament, 
like Tosafot Tuch of Ri and RT.  I travelled to France and Chambery and 
Zenobra (Genevra) to their ancestors' rooms to benefit the multitudes, 
because in Spain and Italy and the neighboring lands <kol ha'aratzot> we 
have only the tosafot of Shantz, of R. Peretz, R. Shimshon, and their 
colleagues." <snip> It was he who selected the tosafot for most of the 
tractates of the Talmud, and the later printers of the Talmud followed 
his precedent." pp. 29-30

The bottom line is that unprinted tosafot were hard and expensive to find.

Incidentally in chapter 13 he goes through the printed tosafot of each 
tractate and identifies their source.

David Riceman

DR:
> The bottom line is that unprinted tosafot were hard and expensive to find.

IIRC Prof. Agus warned us that the sources for the printed Tosafos were
of lower quality. IOW there were superior versions in manuscripts.

E.G. The improved readability of Tosafos haRosh shows us the potential
improvement of having better or best quality sources.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 7:13 AM, <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com> wrote:

> My friend's thesis is that Judaism w/o Qabbalah or Hassidus is mechanical
> and lifeless.
>
> And so he challenged me as follows: To List aspects of Jewish Spirituality
> that were devoid of Qaballah or Hassidus.


Discussions of this kind inevitably degenerate into the "no true Scotsman"
argument http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman.
Especially in this case where your friend has two options for any example
produced: he can reject it either as not true Jewish Spirituality or as not
truly devoid of Kabbala/Hhasidut.
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How about Hovoth HaLevavoth or Sefer haMaspik L'Ovdei HaShem?

David Riceman
>   

Could someone clarify for me if the son of Yehonasan, named Mephivoshes and
described in Shemuel II 4, is the same as that described in the same sefer,
Perek 9?

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
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Why then are they discussed in separate perakim?

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Joshua Meisner <jmeis...@gmail.com>
To: Gershon Dubin <gershon.du...@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Mephivoshes
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 16:31:05 -0400

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 3:27 PM, Gershon Dubin <gershon.du...@juno.com> wrote:
Could someone clarify for me if the son of Yehonasan, named Mephivoshes and
described in Shemuel II 4, is the same as that described in the same sefer,
Perek 9?


I had always assumed so; what would lead one to say otherwise, given that both were lame?

- Josh
____________________________________________________________
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On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 02:13:15PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> : Caveat: Remember that a Sefer like Mesillas Yesharim was written by
> : Ramchal - and so my friend woud claim that it ostensibly has Qabbalistic
> : overtones
>
> It's very hard to see anything esoteric in MY. (And I'm teaching MY
> next year in a "Center for Mindfulness" to a group of C Jews. So I've
> actually actively looked for something to tease out some interest from
> them that way.)
>

RSW z"l has a fascinating remark about this at the end of Alei Shur Vol 1
Ch. 3 (p.30):

"Admor Ma'or `Eineinu Maran R. Yerucham zt"l used to say that MY is a
summing-up [or "the essence"] of all RMHL' z"l's  books on Kabbala, and I
heard the same from Mori veRabbi Hagaon R. Yitzchak Hutner zt"l. That is to
say, it is totally based on Hochmat Ha'Emet -- and when we learned it we
didn't realize! This is indeed preparation for the internals[1]  of the
Tora: by learning this marvellous book early and often, without drudgery or
routine, we will gradually become accustomed to finding the internal in his
words -- and in ourselves. Anyone who hasn't accustomed himself to this kind
of learning, and then comes to books of Kabbala in which the internal is not
concealed from view, will turn the internal knowledge into external. The
gateway to the truly internal (penimiut ha'emet] is MY."

[1] My apologies: "internals" is a terrible English translation of
"penimiut", maybe one that only a programmer who is used to hearing it as
programming jargon would have come up with
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On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 02:48:29PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
: How about Hovoth HaLevavoth or Sefer haMaspik L'Ovdei HaShem?

CHL gives you inspiration for being spiritual, it doesn't spell out a
/derekh/. You can't learn from CHL pragmatics of what to do about it.
It's like the chapters in MY that introduce each middah without the
chapters on how to develop it or detract from it.

R' Avraham ben haRambam's mussar (HMLOH) does spell out a derekh.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
mi...@aishdas.org        which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
http://www.aishdas.org   again. Fullfillment lies not in a final goal,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH

R Simon:
> Admor Ma'or `Eineinu Maran R. Yerucham zt"l used to say that MY is a
> summing-up [or "the essence"] of all RMHL' z"l's books on Kabbala, and
> I heard the same from Mori veRabbi Hagaon R. Yitzchak Hutner zt"l...

I asked a rav teaching Qabbalah:
How does this stuff make one a better person?

His answer:
"Go to Mesillas Yesharim!"

AIUI he was saying it is the quintissential sefer based upon Qabbalah for
"self-improvement"

Note too that Shemiras Halashon is replete with ciatations from Zohar.  

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

RMB:

<<: How about Hovoth HaLevavoth or Sefer haMaspik L'Ovdei HaShem?

CHL gives you inspiration for being spiritual, it doesn't spell out a
/derekh/. You can't learn from CHL pragmatics of what to do about it.
It's like the chapters in MY that introduce each middah without the
chapters on how to develop it or detract from it.

R' Avraham ben haRambam's mussar (HMLOH) does spell out a derekh.>>


It's been a while since I studied Hovot HaLevavot, but that's not how I 
recall it.  I recall long tedious lists of techniques (much like 
Mesillat Yesharim, which is also not high on my favorites list).  OTOH 
HhL my wife's favorite mussar sefer, and she's a much better person than 
I am.

The Kuzari is another option, though it actually is less practical.

In general, though, the ba'alei mussar claim that each person has to 
develop his own techniques (see for example Even Shleimah 1:11 
"v'tzarich l'zeh armumit gedolah ..."), so it may be that the more 
practical a mussar sefer is the less useful it is.

David Riceman

[From Areivim]
>I wonder: how obligated are we, if at all, (a) to agree with Abaye and
think that R. Ada bar Ahava's action was justified and (b) to think  that
people who seek to emulate that behavior today are similarly justified?

>>I also wonder, does one need to be at the level of R' Ada bar Ahava in  order to be entitled to take such action.

I don't know if there is any particular level one must be on, but the Sanz-Klausenberger Rebbe zt'l said:

"It is our obligation to understand that it is not the case that when ever
a person kills the sinner, that it demonstrated that he did this because of
kana'us. There is a sign which distinguishes between kanau's which is true
and that which is false. If when a person sees his fell fallen in sin he is
filled with anger and wrath awakens in him, until he doesn't control his
actions and kills him, this is not kanau's for Hashem, rater wrath and
anger. He is not a kanai, but rather a wrathful person. And since he
doesn't have intent l'shem shamayim, the prohibition against harming the
sinner falls upon him.

True kanau's which is l'shem shamayim is only when a person from Israel
sees his fellow fallen in serious transgression, and is is embittered and
pained that his eyes see such things, his heart aches so much from the
affront of the Sh'chinah... and also at the time which he kills [the
sinner] tears fall from his eyes and he is pained until his spirit is
broken, that he has reached such a situtation as this, that he is compelled
to do that which is contrary to his will and to his nature.....

Thus is the way of true kana'us, and only knai'im such as thee are
permitted to strike the transgressor. Only kanai'im who have no harsh
grievence against the transgressor in their heart, and their zeal is pure
without any admixture of anger or alterior motives."

Shefa Chaim parshas Vayigash 5742 Chumash Rashi Shiur. (My apologies for the "translation").


I think we should be more careful who we dub "kanai'im".


Yirmeyahu

Re: Hovos Halevavos

I have recently restarted it. (FWIW I'm using the "Lev tov" edition) 
Like the Rambam, he lays out what he is doing in a very sensible,
orderly package.

Just reading it adds clarity to my thinking and yishuv da'as. I don't
know if this is mamash spirituality itself, but it sure ENABLES
spirituality.
And So perhaps we would better call it "hechsher" spirituality.
:-)

AISI This is slightly more than just inspiration. It also serves to
clean out some internal cobwebs.

------------------------


Shabbos. Instead of Tehiilim or the Traditional Shir Hashirim, I read
about 3 chapters of Mishlei "meditatively".

I cannot say I got a spiritual "high" but it did clear my mind before
Mincha. I think HhL does something similar for me.

Maybe Mishlei is the intellectual's alternative to Tehillim?

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile



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