Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 184

Thu, 10 Sep 2009

• 1. Re: 100 B'rochos (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 2. Re: reading thermometers on shabbos (T6...@aol.com)
• 3. Re: Tiqun Olam (T6...@aol.com)
• 4. Re: Tiqun Olam (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Adam Ha'rishon (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Marty Bluke)
• 7. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 8. YT sheni (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Ilana Sober Elzufon)
• 12. YT Sheni (Kohn, Shalom)
• 13. Lo Plog & YT Sheini - 1 (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 14. YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 15. Re: YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet (Rich, Joel)

Cantor Wolberg asked:

> I came across the following regarding the halacha to
> recite meah brochos daily: "If one makes a mistake that
> requires a repeat of the sh'mone esrei (e.g. he forgot
> ya'ale v'yavo on Rosh Chodesh) it is possible that both
> the b'rochos from the first and second sh'mone es'rei(s)
> count."
> IMHO this doesn't sound reasonable or logical [and it's
> obviously not a chok :-)]. It's like saying you're being
> rewarded and given credit for a mistake. Anybody disagree?

The quoted halacha seems to accurately reflect the psak of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach z"l.

The remainder of this post consists of extracts from the Halichos Shlomo
(which was compiled and edited by his sons), from the volume on Tefilah. If
one reads these sections carefully, I think you will see not only how he
holds in halacha, but you will also see how he arrived at these
conclusions. (One who is able to learn it in the original should do so,
because this is only a portion of what appears there.)

Halichos Shlomo 8:9 -- One who does not have kavana in the first bracha of
Shmoneh Esreh, and realizes this [later on] during the prayer - even though
our practice is not to daven all over again, nevertheless, because the
halacha is that one *should* repeat it, it is proper (ra'ui) to do what
they say in the name of the Chazon Ish, which is to think in his heart,
with kavana, from the beginning of the Shmoneh Esreh until the point he is
up to...

Davar Halacha 8:11 -- The Beur Halacha (siman 101, "V'ha'idna") was
surprised how he can continue. Given that the halacha is to go back, how
can we tell him to continue?? He won't be yotzay davening with it!!! - It
seems that even if we grant that he is not yotzay davening, nevertheless it
does *not* count as brachos l'vatala, because in the final analysis, he
*has* said the bracha in its entirety, and lack of kavana does not make it
into a bracha l'vatala, only that he's not yotzay with it. Even so, it is
legitmately called "tefilah", and just like one is obviously forbidden to
walk in front of such a person, so too [these brachos] *do* count towards
the 100 daily brachos. (...) The same thing applies if one erred and
omitted "tal umatar"....

Orchos Halacha 8:36 -- In RSZA's notes, he wrote, "Tzorech Iyun: When
someone makes a mistake in Shmoneh Esreh like not saying HaMelech HaKadosh,
where he has to start over, or if he omitted Tal Umatar, why doesn't he say
Baruch Shem K'vod Malchuso L'olam Va'ed?" But according to what we've
written here, that it is *not* a bracha l'vatala, it makes sense (nicha).

Halichos Shlomo 8:6 -- If two are davening, and one overhears that the
other said Tal Umatar in the summer [when it should be omitted], if he can
signal to him [right away] then he should do so. But if not, then he should
inform him after he has completed the prayer.

Davar Halacha 8:6 -- This is like the Davar Halacha 8:11, that the
subsequent brachos of the person who erred are *not* l'vatala. So following
that reasoning, it seems that one who hears another make a mistake in the
davening - such as saying Tal Umatar in the summer or vice versa - even
though his halacha is that he has to start over from the beginning, the
other person has no heter to go in front of him, for it is vadai that [what
he is doing] counts as "Tefilah". The same applies that it counts towards
his 100 Brachos, except that he is not yotzay with them. Nevertheless, at
the actual moment of making the mistake, it is like the Shechina is gone,
and at that time it is mutar to go in front of him [to alert him about the
error].

Akiva Miller

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From: Gershon Seif _gershonseif@yahoo.com_ (mailto:gershons...@yahoo.com) 


>>  My understanding is one may not set up a thermometer on shabbos as it 
falls  under the issur of medida.

But may one read a thermometer that was put in  its place before shabbos? 
ie. a large weather thermometer hanging in the  backyard <<

 
 
 
>>>>>
Assuming that "reading" the thermometer involves nothing but looking  at 
it, without touching it or doing anything to it, what could possibly be the  
problem?  You can't hang a clock on the wall on Shabbos or plug it in, but  
would anyone think there was any problem with /looking/ at the clock to tell 
the  time?
 
You asked about ambient temperature but reminded me of a more  practical 
problem, viz., taking a /person's/ temperature on Shabbos.  
 
During our long infertility saga, most of the shailos that arose had  to do 
with Shabbos.  If  you take your temperature every morning  immediately 
upon awakening and plot the temps on a graph, you can see that your  
temperature is relatively low during the first two weeks of your cycle  and relatively 
high the last two weeks.  In mid-cycle, there is a  distinct dip one day 
followed the next day by a definite rise in  temperature (with the temperature 
remaining high for the rest of the  month).  The dip and rise signal the day
 of ovulation, a critical  piece of information if you want to try to get 
pregnant and especially if you  want to check whether you are getting to the 
mikva too late in your cycle,  which might be preventing pregnancy.  
 
The question was, could you take your temperature on Shabbos?   Missing one 
day would ruin the usefulness of the graph.  The answer we were  given was 
that yes, I could take my temp on Shabbos (recording it on the graph  could 
wait till after Shabbos of course).  We were using an old-fashioned  mercury 
thermometer.  Those are hard to come by these days.  I don't  know what 
would be the psak with a new-fangled battery-operated thermometer with  an LED 
display and a beep-beep signal.
 
 
 
--Toby  Katz
==========



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From: Michael Makovi _mikewinddale@gmail.com_ 
(mailto:mikewindd...@gmail.com) 

>>  A few months ago, in this present thread, I cited and discussed Howard
I.  Levine's "Enduring and Transitory Elements in the Philosophy of
Samson  Raphael Hirsch" (Spring 1963).


....The following is an excerpt from  an essay I am writing on this
subject, comparing Rav Hirsch to the Kuzari on  the subject of morality
and tiqun olam....
<<Excerpt  begins>>

But we might wish to note that if we are accustomed to  viewing
holiness, the experience of the numinous, as the very acme  of
religion, then we should realize that not only Rav Hirsch, but
further  the Prophetic mind in general will disagree with the Mesilat
Yesharim. In  Rabbi Dr. J. H. Hertz's Early and Late (Soncino Press,
1943), we read, (/A  Vindication of Religion/, p. 197),....

<<End excerpt from my  essay>>

Michael Makovi

 
 
>>>>>
You segued rather confusingly from Rav Samson Rafael Hirsch to Rabbi  Dr. 
J. H. Hertz.  These two individuals are NOT philosophically  interchangeable.



--Toby  Katz
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On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 01:55:09AM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: You segued rather confusingly from Rav Samson Rafael Hirsch to Rabbi  Dr. 
: J. H. Hertz.  These two individuals are NOT philosophically  interchangeable.

Actually, does anyone know what RDJHH's philosophy was? (That question
is /not/ rhetorical.

All I can glean from the chumash is that he spent a lot of time
learning kefirah so he can write mah lehashiv la'apiqoreis at great
length. Including both rebuttals and how to reach the same position
as rishonim and convince people who might be more convinced by use of
non-mesoretic sources. His conclusions aren't particularly avante gard.

It's a sad statement about his target audience, but it doesn't tell me
much about where his own thought was.

(He was JTS's first graduate, but they and the OU were still the same
camp back then. C didn't exist in 1894. And from there he went on to
succed R' NM Adler as Chief Rabbi.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

On Sun, Sep 06, 2009 at 05:08:58PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
: Therefore I ask how it was possible for Adam Ha'rishon to have been  
: enticed by the nachash through Chava? 

It does suggest that the sin *had* to have been far more subtle than
a naive reading of the chumash would suggest. But Chazal already have
a pattern of saying that.

Two possibilities, not an exhaustive list of what one can find among
rishonim: Adam could simply have been misled because he didn't know
what a lie was -- the possibility never crossed his mind. Naivite,
not ignorance or moral failing. Or, that he /wanted/ a life of
moral choice rather than choosing truth, because he underestimated
the power of the yeitzer hara and wanted the chance at mitzvos.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             None of us will leave this place alive.
mi...@aishdas.org        All that is left to us is
http://www.aishdas.org   to be as human as possible while we are here.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Anonymous MD, while a Nazi prisoner

Many people are assuming that when Moshiach comes many of the gezeros
d'rabbanan will be canceled. According to the Rambam this is simply
not true. The Rambam writes (Mamrim 2:3) that gezeros d'rabanan that
were made as a s'yag so that people should not violate an issur
d'oraysa can NEVER be repealed even by a beis din that is greater
b'chochma u'bminyan. This means that according to the Rambam when
moshiach comes little will change. We still have to observe ALL of the
s'yagim d'rabanan even if the reasons don't apply.

There is a machlokes rishonim whether the second day of yom yov is a
minhag or a real din d'rabanan. If the latter, then according to this
Rambam it cannot be repealed, and will apply even after moshiach.

Where the Rambam got this idea from is a very good question.

R' Rich Wolpoe wrote:
> [NB: RH would not necessarily afford time to notify the
> planet before the onset of YT with a Qiddush al pi reiya]

I do not understand why you are hedging, using terms like "not necessarily".

It seems clear to me that Rosh Hashana definitely WILL NOT "afford time to notify the planet."

There are several different scenarios which can play out for Rosh Hashana.
One is that at some point on the 30th of Elul, the eidim will be accepted
by the Sanhedrin, and the whole day will have been Yom Tov, retroactively.
Everyone has to be choshesh for this, and so we will all turn off our
electronic devices on the afternoon of Elul 29, just as we do now. When the
eidim come, it will be Yom Tov, and the next day will be chol -- but only
the residents of Yerushalayim will receive the information that RH was only
one day long. It will be just like in the old days, that Rosh Hashana could
be one day in Yerushalayim, but a full two days everywhere else.

Much has been written in this thread about how modern technology will make
it easy for everyone to know when Rosh Chodesh has been declared. I say
that's fine for Nisan - it will take far less than two weeks for everyone
to know when Pesach will be. But it doesn't help for Rosh Hashana. If it
turns out that the first day was the "real" Yom Tov, no one will know about
it, because our computers are all turned off.

Another scenario is that eidim will *not* be accepted on Elul 30, and so
the following day will become Rosh Hashana automatically. Inside
Yerushalayim, this news will get out by word-of-mouth exactly as it did
long ago. But outside of Yerushalayim, how will anyone know?

Some may suggest ideas like allowing rabbonim to leave their computers on,
and a display-only program will be running, so that if it turns out that
the second day of Rosh Hashana is not needed, they'll know this simply by
looking at their screens. I'd respond to this in several ways.

First, time zone problems would introduce mass confusion: By the time
anyone in Yerushalayim can tweet "Just made havdala. First day was the real
RH", everyone in Melbourne will have long since made kiddush and gone to
bed.

Second, you can't rely on such a simplistic system to guard against hackers
-- All the proposals made so far in this thread about not needing Yom Tov
Sheni presume that the anti-hacker police will alert the world to bogus
announcements. Again, that's fine for Nisan, but I'll bet that on Rosh
Chodesh Tishrei all the frum (read: ne'eman) techies will be home, and
*not* at the office watching for hackers. Maybe the frum techies will have
some sort of heter to do certain things, similar to the witnesses who could
ride their horses even on Shabbos. But that heter was only for *declaring*
Rosh Chodesh, not for merely *publicizing* Rosh Chodesh.

My bet is that as far as Yom Tov Sheni, Rosh Hashana of the future will be exactly as it is now.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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More than that.  If the masu'os were stopped mishekilkelu hatzedukim,
why would phone/fax/email/IM be less subject to ziyuf?  Unless of
course we're talking when there are no more tzedukim and we're zocheh
to the rish'ah being kala ke'ashan.>>

Its called encryption.
Most people buy expensive goods using credit card information. Why expect ziyuf?

-- 
Eli Turkel

rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:

> I am saying that if qiddush hachodesh were al pi reiya tomorrow morning,
> every YT - except RH itself - would revert to a single day. Why? The new
> Beth Din would notify the entire world - password protected if need be -
> within seconds.
> 
> So as it stands NOW, Qiddush al pi reiya would drop YT sheini universally
> - except RH.
> 
> So kal vachomer with a fixed calendar this need is obsolete - except RH.

And that exact same argument was just as valid ~1650 years ago when
the fixed calendar was first established.  Once there is no longer
KhChAPhR, once we know exactly when RCh is, why keep two days?  And
yet the Sanhedrin sent a letter ordering everybody who had been keeping
two days to continue doing so.  We keep two days today because of that
letter, and for no other reason.  So what has changed now?  Why should
that letter have less force now than it did then? 




> [NB: RH would not necessarily afford time to notify the planet before
> the onset of YT with a Qiddush al pi reiya]

"Not necessarily"??  How could the world outside Y'm *ever* be notified?
Unless you have a "yomtov goy" in Y'm who will post the news, and a
network of goyim in every other city who will look up the news and
then go around all the shuls to notify people.  Would such a network
of yomtov goyim have enough ne'emanut that if they tell us there isn't
a second day we can believe them long enough to go online and verify
for ourselves that it's so?



> Zev Sero:
>> "What difference can it possibly make how far the news could
>> spread, were there any news *to* spread?"

> All the difference in the world! Literally! Our minhag avos is
> highly suspect considering that we don't live in Baghdad or Iraq!
> Having moved, the whole idea of living in a maqqom that shluchim
> were not magia is suspect.

Huh?  Did shluchim ever reach New York?  No!  So how can you claim
that the Sanhedrin's decree does not apply here?



> Now granted - It could be that the minhag avos is the sole reason for
> continuing this observance

No! The reason is *not* minhag avot, but the Sanhedrin's decree that
we continue that minhag.  "Hachaziku minhag avoteichem biydeichem".
It's not a matter of "tradition", but of a specific order to keep
doing whatever we had already been doing, even though the reason we'd
been doing it no longer applied, because there was now a new reason:
perhaps we will make a mistake in the calculations.  That new reason
wasn't strong enough for the Sanhedrin to make YT Sheni a universal
practise even in EY; but where it had already been the practise, the
new reason was enough for them to order it continued.


> - but I don't think it is a slam dunk and
> this answer needs more work. The Sanhedrin that issued that answer was
> dealing with a far different realia

What difference?  What has changed since then?


> - and it is reasonable to see that
> the inability of shluchim to reach certain places was axiomatic to the
> Taqqana- Gzeira

Huh?  What could that have to do with it, since there were no longer
to be any shluchim?


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Micha Berger wrote:

> I was taught as a child that YTSSG was about knowing what to do when
> we go back to al pi re'iyah.

Ah, that explains it.  I believe you were taught incorrectly.
The reason is explicitly given in the letter itself, which is quoted
in Beitza 4b.  "Sometimes the government might make a decree, and
you will come to get confused", i.e. if Torah is suppressed everyone
who is capable of doing his own calculations will have to do so, and
someone might make a mistake.


> The real answer to his question is that it's a derabbanan, and therefore
> until you gather another Sanhedrin gadol mimenu bechokhmah uveminyan,
> that's the law. I am not sure, but I /think/ that's what RSZ is saying;

Yes.  It seems to me that things *have* changed, and that today it
would be impossible for any government to suppress the Jewish calendar,
and if the Sanhedrin had known this would happen they might have
limited their decree.  But they didn't, and we are bound by that
decision (or, according to the Rambam, by the fact that it was
universally accepted at the time).

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

>
> RMBluke: There is a machlokes rishonim whether the second day of yom yov is
> a
> minhag or a real din d'rabanan. If the latter, then according to this
> Rambam it cannot be repealed, and will apply even after moshiach.


It is to be hoped that when moshiach comes there will be kibbutz galuyot and
thus no communities in which YT sheini need be observed (except RH even
within EY, as has been discussed).

- Ilana
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Apropos of the thread about YT Sheni and its perpetuation at the times of Moshiach:

It is worth commenting on the very odd and obscure statement in the gemara
Beizah about YT sheni generally, that once it was enacted by a beit din,
even if the rationale for rule does not apply (given that we are now
familiar with "keviah d'yarcha" (the lunar cycles), we are not empowered to
change the edict unless a superior Sanhedrin is convened.  

This type of adherence to earlier rulings is at best an exception.  (For
example, we do not observe the prohibition on uncovered water because
snakes are not prevalent, per Rabbeinu Tam, and prohibitions rooted in
magic (keshafim) equally are unobserved).  Another example is the changing
rules on tumat keri re: studying Torah.  Clearly something else is afoot
here.

My suggestion (I may have written about this before to this mailing list),
is that the power of Beit Din to declare the new Moon is a profound grant
of authority from Hashem to the Jewish people.	Mekadesh Yisroel V'Hazmanim
(sanctifies Israel and the Times/Holidays) is interpreted in the Gemara to
mean that Hashem sanctifies Israel who in turn Sanctifies the holidays. 
The Sanhedrin can set the "true" 9th of Tishrei as Yom Kippur, and everyone
will eat, drink and do labor on the "true" 10th of Tishrei, because that is
not the date the beit din declared.  (Compare the episode -- I forget who
and where, though that was a computation dispute rather than a Sanhedrin
declaration -- where one amorah required the other to come before him with
his stick and purse on the Yom Kippur which the second amorah computed, but
which was not in accord with the first aromah's ruling.)  Beit din is even
empowered to move the day for rosh chodesh for various reasons, and
remarkably, to use false
  testimony ("machminim es ha'edim") for that purpose.  It is a remarkable partnership of Hashem and his people and an empowerment of B'Nai Yisroel.

The risk that Jews in Babylon and other communities (which in population
and arguably in achievement became dominant and the Israeli community
declined after the exile) would develop an independent tradition for the
timing of Holidays threatened to undermine the authority of the Sanhedrin,
were it to be resurrected -- which everyone hoped would be imminent in
connection with the Redemption.  It was therefore important to stress at
various points the centrality of Jerusalem, as in the beginning of
Sanhedrin about how we are merely shiluchim (agents) of the semuchim
(ordained ones) in Israel, and the resulting limits on adjudication in the
diaspora; statements that we are dependant on Israel; the superior wisdom
of Israel; and for the common people, the emphasis on YT Sheni as defining
the experience that our holidays depend on the authority of the Sanhedrin. 
This notably was only a rule for the Diaspora, because the concern was the
emergence of an independent Diaspora communi
 ty that would not accept the authority of the Sanhedrin.  In Israel, the
 assumption was that this would not be a problem because in practice
 (except for Rosh Hashana), the time of the declaration of the New Moon
 would become known, and because the knowledge of the lunar cycles was
 sufficiently esoteric that the common person would not question a
 variation in declaration of the New Moon compared with the computation, in
 part because he might conclude that the witnesses were not available to
 testify as to the computed date.

To declare this as the rationale for the rule -- as being independent of
the actual timing of the new moon -- would undermine the objective sought
to be conveyed (hopefully not for readers of this list).  Hence, the
obscurity about the reason, and the odd declaration that we do not undo the
edicts of earlier courts unless our courts are superior.

It follows from the foregoing that when Moshiach will come (soon), the
return of the Sanhedrin will result in a declaration of the New Moon as in
the past.  One further presumes that (a) especially with Techiyat Hameisim
(resurrection) we will be able to empower a superior Court (if that proves
necessary at all); and (b) with the Glory of Hashem filling the Earth,
issues about corruption of the message of the New Moon (and perhaps other
internet virus and errors) will not be an issue as to transmitting the
Sanhedrin's edicts.

It is a good thing to hope that the foregoing will come to pass in the coming New Year.  Shana Tova to all.

Shalom L. Kohn  

 
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There are several cases of YT Sheini and Lo Plog

Talmud:
R. Yochanan is asked about meqomos where shluchin may arrive before
Pesach, but may NOT arrive before Sukkos - due to the loss of 2 days
travel due to 2 days of YT.

R Yochanan's Psaq is Lo Plug and that they should do YT sheini BOTH
Yamim Tovim

See TB RH 22
See Rambam hil Qiddush Hahodesh 3:12
__________________

The Rambam Pasqens that Shavuos has YT sheini for no intrinsic reason -
rather as a Lo Plog. Still looking for Mar'eh Maqom

-------------------------


Meis Bilvad". Which means "kind of" a Lo Plog between YT Rishon and
Sheini for everything else yet as noted already on this list, there
were several exceptions to this rule other than burial and one of them
explicitly in Rambam Hil. Lulav 8:9!

If anyone has the mar'eh Maqom for YT sheini of Shavuos PLZ chime in.

I plan to follow up with another "outrageous" hava amina :-) re: Lo Plog
and YT Sheini in a future post.

Shana Tova
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Clarification:
I do NOT mean to overturn this Taqqamah-gzeira.

I am merely questioning - given a change in technology i is it still
applicable?

Consider the gzeira of reading by a lamp on Friday night! It still exists
- but it does not apply to electric lamps!

I am suggesting that [possibly] the taqqnah encompass the OLD perimeter
which was "maqqom shemagiin. And that was about 12 days walking distance
from the BD.

I would suggest that now in the jet age and the internet age, that the
"maqqom magi'in" peirmeter is globally inclusive!

Summary:
Just as the gzeira for not reading Friday Night still apllies to oil lamps
- So too the Taqqnah of YT Sheinii still stands for places such as outer
space that would still require a while for sub-space communication or
for warp-drive to reach! :-).

Shana Tovah
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Micha Berger wrote:

> I was taught as a child that YTSSG was about knowing what to do when 
> we go back to al pi re'iyah.

Ah, that explains it.  I believe you were taught incorrectly.
The reason is explicitly given in the letter itself, which is quoted in
Beitza 4b.  "Sometimes the government might make a decree, and you will
come to get confused", i.e. if Torah is suppressed everyone who is capable
of doing his own calculations will have to do so, and someone might make a
mistake.

-- 
------------------------
So what will we do when Pesach rotates out of the aviv?
KT&ST
Joel Rich
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