Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 203

Fri, 16 Oct 2009

• 1. Re: train switch conundrum (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: train switch conundrum (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Software license limited to one country? (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: train switch conundrum (Rich, Joel)
• 5. minhag simchat tora (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 6. Re: Sukkah on Shabbos (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Hashkafa Question on Sukkah Eating, (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: minhag simchat tora (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 9. Re: [Areivim] Halacha of speeding/Jewish ethics curriculum development help (Daniel Israel)
• 10. Re: Hashkafa Question on Sukkah Eating, (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 11. Re: minhag simchat tora (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Loazim and Shmitchiks (T6...@aol.com)
• 13. Re: [Areivim] Halacha of speeding/Jewish ethics curriculum development help (Harry Maryles)
• 14. Re: minhag simchat tora (Gershon Dubin)
• 15. Breishis: Pru uRvu & Yishuv ha'Olam (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)

    the men on top.

RARR left the question open, but I think he was intentionally leading us to conclude that you can't actively kill one even to save many.

I can think of two possible sevaros:

1- Mi yichyeh umi yamos is in HQBH's hands. The question is therefore more
about the person facing the decision than the people who may be saved or
killed because of his choice. IOW, the only real issue is choosing to be a
killer.

2- Every life is of infinite value. 100 times infinity is no greater than infinity. You can't weigh out lives and compare their infinities.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 

However, in Nefesh Hachayim he posits a mitzvah of hatzalat kol Yisrael.
Perhaps (my idea-not seen in any authoritative source) there we might posit
a difference of the "tzibbur" being more than the sum of its parts (and
perhaps this is why "hilchot milchama" differ-although I always assumed
that also came from the power of the king vs. "pure halacha")
KT
Joel Rich
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On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 08:32:57AM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: However, in Nefesh Hachayim he posits a mitzvah of hatzalat kol
: Yisrael. Perhaps (my idea-not seen in any authoritative source) there we
: might posit a difference of the "tzibbur" being more than the sum of its
: parts (and perhaps this is why "hilchot milchama" differ-although I always
: assumed that also came from the power of the king vs. "pure halacha")

So perhaps if deciding who to save had military outcome, then the poor
poseiq who has do decide this question would tell you to listen to the
generals.

In terms of the original question, the train switch, this concept would
clearly indicate letting 5 die rather than actively kill one.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person must be very patient
mi...@aishdas.org        even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org         - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 06:01:40PM +0200, Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
: Would appreciate some legal/halachic advice

Speaking as moderator, I've been rejecting posts that only address the
legal end and asked the posters to redirect to Areivim.

: I am interested in purchasing a computer program from a licensed dealer 
: in America. However I just spoke to a representative of the company and 
: he said that the license is valid for using the program only in the 
: country of purchase...

: Am I required to comply with this licensing agreement - which doesn't 
: apply to any other computer program I have ever bought? Other programs 
: have such conditions as I must purchase a different copy for each 
: computer or that I can't use it for commercial purposes - but none limit 
: my geographic use.

As I see it, the question can be explit into:

1- Does dina demalkhusa dina (DDD) apply?

1a- Does it make a difference whether the DDD is only within choshein
    mishpat property law, or also includes national security law?

    Does the program contain any encryption/decription abilities (eg
    used in storing passwords) that the US does not permit to be exported?

2- Are there non-dina demalkhusa dina (DDD) problems with using a program
   outside the license agreement?

   Assuming you wouldn't buy a copy at the higher local price, is it zeh
   neheneh vezeh lo chaseir?

As is usual when this issue arises, I refer the chevrah back to my notes
of a shiur by R Zev Reichman then of the YU's Kollel Elyon, speaking at
an OU lunch-and-learn program, posted at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol07/v07n058.shtml#04> and
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol07/v07n058.shtml#13>.

Among the issues closer to my heart right now are:

1- Item #2 on the second post, the huge chiddush of the Sho'el uMeishiv
(1:44) that the Torah would require us to protect any rights that
the surrounding society protects. This is beyond DDD because he
applies halakhah's notion that baalus is eternal, even if DDD has
a deadline. Thus, if society recognizes copyright as an ownership,
halakhah would require an eternal copyright.

I wonder what that would do patent law...

2- Risking possible chilul Hashem.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I long to accomplish a great and noble task,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it is my chief duty to accomplish small
http://www.aishdas.org   tasks as if they were great and noble.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Helen Keller

=

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 08:32:57AM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: However, in Nefesh Hachayim he posits a mitzvah of hatzalat kol
: Yisrael. Perhaps (my idea-not seen in any authoritative source) there we
: might posit a difference of the "tzibbur" being more than the sum of its
: parts (and perhaps this is why "hilchot milchama" differ-although I always
: assumed that also came from the power of the king vs. "pure halacha")

So perhaps if deciding who to save had military outcome, then the poor poseiq who has do decide this question would tell you to listen to the generals.

In terms of the original question, the train switch, this concept would clearly indicate letting 5 die rather than actively kill one.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

============================================================



Agree- which is why I am trying to understand the CI's chiluk as the train
switch being a maaseh hatzalah of the 5 rather than a rechitzah of the one
(e.g. does intent have anything to do with it -what if the one was a sworn
enemy?) Also The CI aiui differentiates from the sheva ben bichri case
because here there is only one act involved, so what would he say in the
case where I pay someone to throw the switch?

KT
Joel Rich
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Thank you.

i saw  no mention made  of  'piyutim' .  in many machzors, including 
artscroll's , the have  a few  piyutim  before mussaf---sisu vsimchu,  the 
avos kept  simchas tora, etc

i havent seen these sung [anyone know  the nussach]  . i wonder how 
prevalent  it is to actually do them.....

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On Thu, Oct 08, 2009 at 10:47:31PM +0100, Chana Luntz wrote:
: RMB writes:
:> I was thinking more technically, that since it's framed as a lav, beis
:> din simply lacked the legislative power to override it.

: But from where are you deriving that it is *framed as a lav*?

If this was after the earlier post which you quoted:
: > Correct what I said from the formal asei vs lav to chiyuv vs
: > issur. That is the whole gezeirah shavah tes-vav tes-vav --
: > the first night parallels a chiyuv of akhilas matzah, the
: > rest of Sukkos it parallels not eating chameit...

then I miswrote. It's clearly an asei.

IIUC, you're saying that the asei deOraisa "basukos teishevu shiv'as
yamim" is to eat akhilas qeva in the sukkah, which is a mitzvah
qiyumis. And then there is a derabbanan not to eat outside the sukkah,
which is (e.g.) the issur in the Rambam I quoted.

AIUI, the asei deOraisa is that one must *only* eat akhilas qava in the
sukkah, a mitzvah makhsheres. And thus in parallel to the issur chameitz
-- if one wants to eat baked goods, it must only be unleavened.

This isn't really learned *from* the gezeirah shava as much as the point
being compared. Both have a mitzvah makhsheres, and Pesach has a chiyuv
version on the first night (the "15"), so too Sukkos has a chiyuv version
on the first night.

So, RnCL asked where we see the g"sh discussed WRT sukkah after the
first night:

There is a machloqes Abayei veRava (nr the bottom of Sukkah 34a) why the
Torah had to say "ha'ezrakh" to explicitly exclude women from the chiyuv.
Abayei: to counter "'teishevu' - ke'ein taduru" implying that wives
should join their husbands. Rava - to counter the g"sh 15-15, where
women are chayavos.

It would seem therefore that the *chiyuv* of Sukkah even after the first
night is deOraisa, even if the chiyuv is a makhsheres, not absolute.
Because otherwise, why would we need a pasuq to reassert that women are
peturos of mitzvos asei shehazman gerama.

BTW, I just realized something. We discussed a couple of months back
the topic of Kant's categorical imperative. Briefly: There is the
hypothetical imperative: something that's a good idea if you desire to
accomplish something. If I want to cease being thirsty, I should get a
drink. But morality is the categorical imperative -- something that is a
good idea regardless of any hypotheticals. Thus, "Act only according to
that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become
a universal law." An unconditional requirement.

Matzah the first night is a categorical imperative;
matzah the rest of Pesach is a hypothetical imperative.

In general, this is true of all of the mitzvos Rav Dovid Lifshitz
(probably following R' Shimon Shkop) classified as mitzvos makhshiros.
They are mitzvos that are the only way to do somehting permissibly --
eg: if you wish to eat meat, you must have it shechted.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person must be very patient
mi...@aishdas.org        even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org         - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Oct 08, 2009 at 03:50:43PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: R' Rich Wolpoe asked:
:> Avraham spends the entire Chol haMoed avoiding the CHIYYUV
:> of eating in the Sukkah. Instead of needing to find a
:> sukkah, he adjusts his diet to eat foods that do not
:> trigger an obligation....
:> Yitzchak religiously washes twice a day and makes hammotzi
:> and benches. He aims to get in 14 s'udos mamash ...

15, since at least one day is Shabbos and thus 3 se'udos.

:>                               ... s'udos mamash over the
:> course of sukkos ... But Yitzchak also eats several signifcant
:> portions of food outside the> sukkah in addition to these 14
:> times. Some of them would be mamash k'vias s'uda, but maybe he has
:> a heter when traveling or at the office.

In an aggadic sense, both are acknowledging Sukkos -- one through qiyum
hamitzvahm, the other because every meal is designed around avoiding the
chiyuv.

...
:> Which approach is hashkafically superior?

: As RRW presents it -- "*maybe* he has a heter" -- it is not clear
: whether or not he actually violated any halacha...

If he did violate halakhah, then I think it's the anti-nomian spirituality
of the eish zarah offered by Nadav vaAvihu. They get leibedik on some
one, "haqrivam", got close to the Almight, but by defying halakhah their
spirituality cost them their lives.

If he did not, then it's chumrah vs. chumrah, and I'm reminded of
"hevei zahir ... kalah kachumurah." Even if this is not about mitzvos. It
depends on the individual "baasher hu sham" and what his soul needs then
and there.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org        to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org   you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      - George Elliot

Saul Z.:
> i saw no mention made of 'piyutim'. in many machzors, including
> artscroll's, the have a few piyutim before mussaf---sisu vsimchu, the
> avos kept simchas tora, etci havent seen these sung [anyone know the
> nussach]. i wonder how prevalent it is to actually do them....

Yekkes AFAIK sing them and you can find the music for them in I M
Japhet's book

KT 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Moving this from Areivim, because it details with specifics of din,  
rather than the general request for sources.

Quoting Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>:
>> The first session is supposed to be this coming Tuesday (10/20),   
>> and I was planning on addressing "Speeding in Halacha."  I know   
>> there have been some references to the topic here recently, but is   
>> anyone aware of actual tshuvos?
>
> Do you mean exceeding the legal limit, or the safe limit?

I assume that it is obvious that one can't drive "unsafely" (for some,  
as yet to be identified, definition of the term), because of  
endangering others and also oneself.  If any poskim have addressed the  
issue of how "unsafely" is defined in this context, I would be  
interested, but it isn't so relevant to what I am presenting.

What I have seen is three positions.  1. DMD doesn't apply, so the  
only issues are chillul HaShem and endangering.  2. DMD does apply and  
speed limits must be obeyed.  3. DMD applies, but goes according to  
the law as observed/enforced, not as written.

The first I have seen posited in internet postings, but not cited to  
any recognized posek.  2 & 3 I have seen referenced to statements by  
poskim, but no actual tshuvos.  (RAL is claimed to hold like 2, where  
RCPS is cited as holding 3.)  What I'd really like to find are written  
tshuvos for 2 & 3, or, if not, primary sources for these two positions  
on how DMD is applied.

Side note.  2 other ideas that have occurred to me on this topic:

I saw a fascinating article* which suggests that traffic law,  
including speed limits, defines "expected behavior" and therefore  
speeding would create certain liability l'halacha.  It occurred to me  
that one could also argue as follows: Driving is always risky.   
Halacha distinguishes (IIRC) between normal accepted levels of risk,  
and abnormal levels of risk, with the latter being an issue of  
v'nishmartem.  Could we argue that the (observed, if not posted) speed  
limit defines what the average person considers a reasonable risk, so  
one who exceeds it is violating v'nishmartem?

Also, according to those who want to suggest that DMD doesn't apply to  
speed limits, would they be modeh that it applies to speeding fines?   
I.e., they would hold that it is mutar to speed, but if caught, one is  
m'chuyiv l'halacha to pay the ticket?
   
*http://matzav.com/a-drivers-liability
-in-halacha-and-civil-law-rav-mendel-shafran-and-the-dan-bus-company

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

R' Rich Wolpoe asked [as clipped in my post. -- micha]: 
Avraham spends the entire Chol haMoed avoiding the CHIYYUV 
of eating in the Sukkah. Instead of needing to find a 
sukkah, he adjusts his diet to eat foods that do not 
trigger an obligation.... 
Yitzchak religiously washes twice a day and makes hammotzi 
and benches. He aims to get in 14 s'udos mamash..? 
 
The hashkafah questioin I had un mind was more like: 
 
Is it better to obsess over what positive good one does -- even though
one might not avoid error, or might be careless
Vs. 
Someone who obsesses over being careful -- but it NOT conerned about
accomplishing anything positive!
 
The halachicists here seemed to have mostly hijacked this dilemma
by making the avoidance of eating outside Sukkah into a some kind of
positive Halachic desiderata when it s merely an avoidance of a negative.
 
The hashkafa of sur meira vaasei tov is what should we be looking at? 
 
EG: If we walked into a full room: how much good can we do or how much
evil can we avoid?
 
One response was absolutely on target, most were kind of quasi-halachic
about being normative
 
WRT nadav and avihu 
Their folly of "eish zara" was "lifnei Hashem" which made it more
egregious. Of course aveira lishma is a genuine hashkafic tangent,
but an unintended one.
 
AISI Yitzchak was not flouting any law! He was merely lacking in
zehirus. So is the lack of zehirus or "dikduk" a worthy trade-off for
his enthusiasm in otherwise observing the mitzvah? One response was
NO! Better to be a straight arrow. That response was on target [pun
intended of course]
 
Another response was pretty good. Viz. Where do we get leaders if we
have only "evil-avoiders"?
 
KT 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
> 
> i saw  no mention made  of  'piyutim' .  in many machzors, including 
> artscroll's , the have  a few  piyutim  before mussaf---sisu vsimchu, 
>  the avos kept  simchas tora, etc

Are these several piyutim, or one piyut?

> i havent seen these sung [anyone know  the nussach]

I know a tune for the first line ("sisu vesimchu") and one for the
last line ("Ashreichem Yisroel").   The only minhag I know is to try
to sing the whole piyut to the tune of "sisu vesimchu", even though
it doesn't come even close to scanning.  Being not quite sober helps;
that is to say, it doesn't help the words scan, but it helps the
singer not mind so much :-)


> i wonder how  prevalent  it is to actually do them.....

I take it that in your experience they remain in the siddur but are
not said; if so, do you say "Koh Keli" before musaf?  It's my
understanding that it is said (by those who do so) in order to make
a break between the haftara and Ashrei, and therefore it's not said
whenever there's something else in that spot: on Shabbos because of
Yekum Purkan, on Yizkor days because of Yizkor, and on Simchas Torah
because of Sisu Vesimchu.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

 
From: dbm...@aol.com


>First of all, I would like to say  that I appreciate (and am amazed by!) 
>the astounding scholarship and  research that had to have gone into this 
>endeavor. I wonder how on earth  R' Yisrael Isser Zvi Herczeg (the?main 
>translator) and his collaborators  went about doing this?! [--old TK]

Not to take away from their  responsible decision not to neglect the 
lo'azim, very little astounding  scholarship and research needed to take place, 
since the astounding research and  scholarship has already taken place a 
century ago or more. R' Yisrael Isser Zvi  Herczeg did not need to become experts 
in Medieval French. They needed to read  books by experts in Medieval 
French. ....
 
So "has been thoroughly researched" most probably means "I sat  in the 
[NYPL, JTS Library, JNUL, borrowed volumes and learned what the words  mean,"  
as opposed to original research in the languages and medieval  French texts. 
Not to take anything away from the Artscroll Rashi edition, which  is one of 
their best products, for  sure.


KT,
S.W.

 
>>>>
When I said I was astounded by the research done  by R' Herczeg (and his 
collaborators), I was not imagining that he had done  original research into 
old languages and medieval French texts!  I meant to  express my admiration 
exactly for what you deride as "sitting in libraries"  and combing through 
the many books and dictionaries that have already been  compiled, in order to 
find the best or likeliest version of what old word Rashi  was using in his 
Hebrew spelling of French words (ArtScroll and Silbermann do  not always 
agree on the French, for example), as well as exactly what nuance of  meaning 
in the pasuk Rashi was trying to convey.  Maybe it looks like easy  work to 
you, it sure doesn't look that way to me!



--Toby  Katz
==========



_____________________

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?
--- On Thu, 10/15/09, Daniel Israel <d...@cornell.edu> wrote:


Moving this from Areivim, because it details with specifics of din, rather than the general request for sources.

Quoting Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>:
>> The first session is supposed to be this coming Tuesday (10/20),?
>> and I was planning on addressing "Speeding in Halacha."? I know?
>> there have been some references to the topic here recently, but
>> is? anyone aware of actual tshuvos?
> 
> Do you mean exceeding the legal limit, or the safe limit?

I assume that it is obvious that one can't drive "unsafely" (for some, as
yet to be identified, definition of the term), because of endangering
others and also oneself.? If any poskim have addressed the issue of how
"unsafely" is defined in this context, I would be interested, but it isn't
so relevant to what I am presenting.

What I have seen is three positions.? 1. DMD doesn't apply, so the only
issues are chillul HaShem and endangering.? 2. DMD does apply and speed
limits must be obeyed.? 3. DMD applies, but goes according to the law as
observed/enforced, not as written.
---------------------------------------------------
?
I would say that DMD does apply WRT to speeding laws. 
?
But I would also say that it is not a CH to speed slightly above the limit
- especially on an expressway. That's because the simple truth is that
everyone does it and it is not unsafe to do so. In fact if one drives at
the limit?on any expressway here in Chicago (where the limit is 55mph) one
may in fact be creating a CH because?virtually all drivers?will look at you
strangely if not angrily as they pass you up.
?
Which brings up the following question. If following?DMD causes a CH - what
is the proper course of action? Should we violate it in order to avoid the
CH? My quick answer is yes.
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/




      
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---------- Original Message ----------
From: Zev Sero z...@sero.name

<<It's my understanding that it is said (by those who do so) in order to make
a break between the haftara and Ashrei>> 
Why?
Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com


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Is there a connection between the Last Mitzvah in the Torah and the
First Mitzvah in the Torah?

How might changing the focus of a Mitzvah, from an individual focus to
a communal focus, impact the way we approach that Mitzvah?

Please see:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2009/10/breisheet-pru-urvu-yishuv-h
aolam.html

GS
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile



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