Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 205

Mon, 19 Oct 2009

• 1. Re: Yemenites on Kol Isha (Michael Makovi)
• 2. Laws of Davening (for women) (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Re: Water bottle in the desert (Ken Bloom)
• 4. Sna es HaRabannus (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 5. Question (Cantor Wolberg)
• 6. Re: Question (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Question Sin of Adam vs. Kayin (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 8. Re: Question (Micha Berger)
• 9. two Lemech's (T6...@aol.com)
• 10. Mei Marom (Yitzchok Adlerstein)
• 11. Re: minhag simchat tora (Danny Schoemann)
• 12. Re: Mei Marom (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Mei Marom (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 14. Re: Question (Daniel Israel)
• 15. Re: Birkat Cohanim on Hoshana Rabbah (Arie Folger)
• 16. so is she married? (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 17. Re: so is she married? (Micha Berger)
• 18. Re: Question (Micha Berger)

Re: R' Wolpoe, that kol isha is forbidden during KS and tefillah, but
otherwise permitted when there is no hana'a, such as during opera or
mixed-sex choirs (yekkes):

The KS and tefillah view for kol isha would apparently be the SA's
stricture, that Rambam (kol isha = etzba ketana) is ikkar ha-din but
that it's good to follow the Shema view too. This might pose problems
for the partnership minyanim (they don't merely let women read the
Torah; they also let the women in general sing and say Qadish as
loudly as the men do, from their side of the mehitzah). Rabbi Yehiel
Weinberg's leniency on zemirot wouldn't help, because that wasn't
Shema/tefillah. But all this is as an aside, becauseI cannot see any
other societal concern for the KS/tefillah view, because most people
are more concerned with listening to women sing in general, not davka
during davening.

Everything you said about hana'a, opera, yekkes all fits with what
I've heard and read. Thank you.

Michael Makovi

Please see http://www.5tjt.com/news/read.asp?Id=5020


Yitzchok Levine

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On Fri, 2009-10-16 at 11:32 -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
> Reuvain has his water bottle and there's not enough for him and
> shimon. Halacha is like Rabbi Akiva that reuvain keeps and shimon
> dies.
> But what if shimon takes the water bottle with a claim that reuvain
> owes him money and let bet din decide.  Does reuvain have the right to
> kill shimon if that's the only way to get the water back? what if
> shimon has no claim other than he wants to live?
> KT
> Joel Rich

Din? Mamonot (R' Ezra Basri) Section 1 (Loans and their Repayment),
Chapter 3 (The Place and Order of Repayment), Halacha 1. (Tr. R' Eliyahu
Touger):

Once a debt has become due, the borrower may demand repayment in any
place. If he and the borrower are journeying together, he may demand
payment in the desert and force the borrower to pay him there, provided
the borrower has sufficient funds to return to a settled area. This law
applies if the loan was given in a settled area. If the lender claims
the borrower has enough means to return and the borrower denies his
claim, the borrower must support his statement by a Rabbinic oath.

Ad Kan Din? Mamonot.

Elsewhere in the chapter, R' Basri distinguishes between loans that were
made in the desert versus those that were made in a settled area, but he
doesn't seem to apply that distinction to this halacha.

Based on this, it would seem that the Shimon has no claim on the water
bottle if there is a loan, and certainly not if there was no loan.

I'll let someone else take it from here regarding the amount of force
Reuven is allowed to enforce his claim.

Hirsch on Avos 1:10
P. 425 in Siddur

> Hate the holding of High Office for the office holder quickly becomes a
> slave to his position. He will do things - or he will believe that, for
> the sake of his position he MUST [emphasis mine] do certain things - which
> actually are contrary to his own view and inclinations, and which he would
> never do if he were free to follow his own personal philosophies of life.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Has anyone ever asked why regarding the sin of the
eitz hadaas, the punishments meted out to Chava and
Adam were transmitted to all of mankind, whereas,
when Kayin murdered Hevel, only he was punished.
It seem strange that the sin of the eitz hadaas had much
more encompassing consequences for all of mankind,
but the consequence for murder was restricted just to
the perpetrator.

Cantor Wolberg wrote:
> Has anyone ever asked why regarding the sin of the
> eitz hadaas, the punishments meted out to Chava and
> Adam were transmitted to all of mankind, whereas,
> when Kayin murdered Hevel, only he was punished.
> It seem strange that the sin of the eitz hadaas had much
> more encompassing consequences for all of mankind,
> but the consequence for murder was restricted just to
> the perpetrator.

1. We are descended from Sheis.

2. Adam and Chava's punishment changed their nature and the whole
world's nature.  As their genetic descendants, we naturally inherit
those changes, just as the descendants of someone who undergoes any
mutation, for any reason, inherit it.  Kayin's punishment was to wander,
and after seven generations to be killed; what exactly is it that you
expect us to have inherited from him?  


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

> Has anyone ever asked why regarding the sin of the eitz hadaas,
> the punishments meted out to Chava and Adam were transmitted to all
> of mankind, whereas, when Kayin murdered Hevel, only he was punished.
> It seem strange that the sin of the eitz hadaas had much more encompassing
> consequences for all of mankind, but the consequence for murder was
> restricted just to the perpetrator.

To me they look the same

The punishments are visited to the corresponding descendants in both
cases! Anyway - How would it look otherwise?

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 02:26:25PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: 1. We are descended from Sheis.

This goes to the question of why the pasuq tells us about Ne'amah, that
she descends from Qayin, but doesn't tell us /why/ she is mentioned.
Do we consider it a pointer that we should know we have lineage from
Qayin, or that Hashem intentionally omits connecting Mrs Noach and thus
us to Qayin?

: 2. Adam and Chava's punishment changed their nature and the whole
: world's nature.  As their genetic descendants, we naturally inherit
: those changes, just as the descendants of someone who undergoes any
: mutation, for any reason, inherit it.  Kayin's punishment was to wander,
: and after seven generations to be killed; what exactly is it that you
: expect us to have inherited from him?  

Doesn't this just presume the conclusion -- why were the consequences of
Chava's and Adam's actions of the sort that they are inheritable, but
Qayin's, not?

Personally, I think it's more that the onesh is causal -- once the
concept of sin existed, people had to be mortal, the world had to be
worked, and birth had to come with pain. The first aveirah, perhaps even
regardless of its content, changed how people relate to the world.

The clock can't be unwound so as to make sin non-exist, so the oneshim
caused by knowing that aveirah is possible can't be undone either.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A sick person never rejects a healing procedure
mi...@aishdas.org        as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what
http://www.aishdas.org   other people think when dealing with spiritual
Fax: (270) 514-1507      matters?              - Rav Yisrael Salanter

I noticed a curious thing in the parsha yesterday, something that had never 
 struck me before:
 
Noach's father and father-in-law both had the same name --  Lemech!  
 
The Lemech who was a fifth generation descendant of Kayin (or sixth  
generation if you count Kayin himself as the first), and who killed Kayin, had a  
daughter named Na'amah.  Rashi says Na'amah was Noach's wife (although the  
Chumash itself does not say it explicitly). (BTW the Chumash also does not 
say  explicitly that Lemech killed Kayin.)
 
Noach's father, the other Lemech, was a seventh generation descendant of  
Shes.
 
Both Lemech's had this curious "thing" about the number seven.  
 
The Kainite Lemech said, "Ki shiv'asayim yukam Kayin, veLemech shiv'im  
veshiv'ah."  (Various translations are possible.  ArtScroll: "If Cain  suffered 
vengeance at seven generations, then Lamech at seventy-seven."   
Silbermann:  "If Cain be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and  sevenfold.") 
(Ber. 4:24)
 
The Shesite Lemech, besides being the seventh generation descendant of  
Shes, lived seven hundred and seventy years. (Ber. 5:31)
 
If Lemech A was (inadvertently?) prophesying something about Lemech B, the  
life-span of Lemech B could be a fulfillment of "then Lamech at seventy and 
 seven."  Not that it would really make sense in context.  But there  /is/ 
that thing about sevens.....
 
Anyway, I wonder if anyone else here ever noticed that Noach's father  and 
father-in-law were both Lemech's? and whether the name has any significance, 
 or whether the two Lemech's had some [cosmic] relationship?  Other than  
being the forebears, both of them, of all of humanity alive today.  

--Toby  Katz
==========



_____________________

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I've been trying to introduce a friend of mine to Mei Marom. Someone
recently presented him with a few of the sefarim, and he came back to me
scratching his head. He found himself in perek 10 of Urie Veyishi, and takes
the mechaber to mean, in the words of my friend, that even after "Tshuvah
Me'Ahavah, a person still needs to be purged of his sins in Gehenom.  The
Baal Teshuavh will enjoy the pain however, because of the realization of the
ultimate benefit."
 
This friend is an accomplished ba'al machshavah, with a fine grasp of the
conventional and some non-conventional sefarim. He claims he has never seen
anything like it, and asked if I can find any source of this shitah of R
Yaakov Moshe Charlop.
 
Are there any Mei Marom aficionados in our ranks?
 
Yitzchok Adlerstein
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Saul Z.:
>> i saw no mention made of 'piyutim'. in many machzors, including
>> artscroll's, the have a few piyutim before mussaf---sisu vsimchu, the
>> avos kept simchas tora, etc haven't seen these sung [anyone know the
>> nussach]. i wonder how prevalent it is to actually do them....
RMB:
>Yekkes AFAIK sing them and you can find the music for them in I M
>Japhet's book

Correct - we not only sing them, but (at least where I grew up the
Adas Yeshurun of Johannesburg) it was done in the following manner:

3 men holding Sifrei Torah would go up next to the Bima; the one in
the middle would be Chazzan.

The Chazzan would chant "Ogil V'Esmach B'Simchas Torah" and bow forward,

Then he would turn to his right and bow while chanting "Bo Yovo
Tzemach Bsimchas Torah"; the person on his right would bow too.

Repeated to his left for the next verse.

Then each of the 3 would dance  "on their own axis" (essentially spin)
while chanting the refrain "Torah Hee Eitz Chaim..."

This was one of the highlights of Simchas Torah. :-)

In my great-grandfather's Machzor he had pencilled in "singen" and
"tanzen" various times in the margin; so in 18th century Germany
(Zeltingen) they had a similar setup.

- Danny

Tshuvah Me'Ahavah, a person still needs to be purged of his sins in
Gehenom.  The Baal Teshuavh will enjoy the pain however, because of the
realization of the ultimate benefit."

This friend is an accomplished ba'al machshavah, with a fine grasp of the
conventional and some non-conventional sefarim. He claims he has never seen
anything like it,

=====================
Which part - that the baal tshuva will be purged or that he will enjoy it?
KT
Joel Rich
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R Yitzchok Adlerstein:
> even after?"Tshuvah Me'Ahavah, a person still needs to be purged of
> is sins in Gehenom.? The Baal Teshuavh will enjoy the pain however,
> ecause of the realization of the ultimate benefit."

I don't know anything about "Mei Marom"
Nevertheless,
I would venture a less than literal approach here, Viz.

A person who does teshuva meiahava would likely be "meqabeil yissurim
be'ahavah". Those welcome yissurim would serve to purge, purify, and
smelt that person. Therefore AISI - "gehinnnom "is lav davka, and may
simply be a metaphor referring to this process.

Again, this is an intuitive hunch.

KT
RRW

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Quoting Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>:
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 02:26:25PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : 2. Adam and Chava's punishment changed their nature and the whole
> : world's nature.  As their genetic descendants, we naturally inherit
> : those changes, just as the descendants of someone who undergoes any
> : mutation, for any reason, inherit it.
>
> Doesn't this just presume the conclusion -- why were the consequences of
> Chava's and Adam's actions of the sort that they are inheritable, but
> Qayin's, not?

I think RZS's second sentence confuses the issue, but his point  
stands.  Adam and Chava's punishment included a change in the nature  
of reality.  Therefore it necessarily effects everyone who will ever  
inhabit this reality.  Kayin's punishment effected just him (directly).

To the extent that this change in nature included a change in human  
nature, it can be described as "inheritable," but the change was  
broader than that.  I don't think (for example) mortality was passed  
on as an inherited trait, rather human nature changed to be mortal,  
therefore all other people also have finite lifespans.  No different  
from all other people having to toil for agriculture.

This still leaves a "why" question, but not as strong.  There are lots  
of other examples of punishments that directly impact more than just  
the individual, i.e., David HaMelech being punished with a plague.

I would suggest, though, that the answer to the why question is  
connected to Adam being not just a single member of the human race,  
but originally, in some sense, the entirety of humanity.

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Michael Poppers
<MPopp...@kayescholer.com> wrote:
>
> I was asking about the word (i.e. the verb) for "beating" the aravos, not the word (i.e. the noun) for the aravos themselves! ?Thanks.

The verb is abschlagen.
--
Arie Folger,
Latest blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* The Tzaddik of Yerushalayim - a Documentary
* Ein Verzeihungsgebet der 10 Busstagen im Licht des 9. Aw
* Educating Children About the Evil of Nazism
* Complex Memories ? the Notion of ?? ????

http://achaslmaala.blogspot.com/2009/10/nefesh-keshura-bne
fesh-proposal-did-her.html

someone should  tell them  to ask this shaila,especially if she was going 
to cover her hair.....


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On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 02:41:02PM -0700, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: http://achaslmaala.blogspot.com/2009/10/nefesh-keshura
: -bnefesh-proposal-did-her.html
: someone should  tell them  to ask this shaila,especially if she was going 

Lehefech... I could see arguing that since she intends to cover her hair
only after a later the chasunah, she (at least) clearly did not intend
qiddushin until then.

BTW, such conversations about real people is a little dangerous, as
qol is part of the definition of who we assume is married, and we could
inadvertantly create a qol that makes their situation more complex.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Never must we think that the Jewish element
mi...@aishdas.org        in us could exist without the human element
http://www.aishdas.org   or vice versa.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 01:54:24PM -0700, Daniel Israel wrote:
:          Adam and Chava's punishment included a change in the nature  
: of reality.  Therefore it necessarily effects everyone who will ever  
: inhabit this reality.  Kayin's punishment effected just him (directly).

I argued the flipside... Chava and Adam (that's the historical sequence)
changed mankind, and that impacts reality.

Leshitas REED (who I think is following a Kantian interpretation of the
Maharal), "reality" is mostly human perception. Thus his take on the
Maharal's notion of nissim vs teva. And in fact in that essay, 4 Olamos,
REED writes that Adam qodem hacheit inhabited a higher olam because he
had a loftier perception of reality.

(One in which time is non-linear, BTW.)

To develop his theme (and my previous post) further:
Once people knew cheit was possible, the laws of teva became more absolute
than the laws of tzedeq. We saw that tov vara could be violated. And
so, Adam plunged down an olam. Since the evidence exists to anyone once
that first cheit is part of history, Chava and he changed the rest of
humanity as well.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
mi...@aishdas.org        he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
http://www.aishdas.org   Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
Fax: (270) 514-1507      a spirit of purity.      - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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