Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 243

Thu, 03 Dec 2009

• 1. Re: Polygraph in Halakhah (David Riceman)
• 2. Re: questions regarding pidyon haben (Gershon Dubin)
• 3. Kosher (Dov Kaiser)
• 4. Re: Kosher (Arie Folger)
• 5. Re: How is one Qoneh Emunah (Neil Harris)
• 6. Re: Polygraph in Halakhah (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 7. Re: Auspicious times in Halocho (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 8. Re: Kosher (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 9. Re: Kosher (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: [Areivim] shidduch statistics (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: [Areivim] shidduch statistics (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Kosher (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 13. Just How hot is Yad Soledes Bo anyway? (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 14. Re: questions regarding pidyon haben (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Kosher (Zev Sero)

Micha Berger wrote:
> Given that not every secular jurisdiction considers the polygraph to be
> sufficiently reliable for admission as evidence, I am wondering how we
> determine how reliable a test must be to be good enough  for halakhah.
> Rov when we may be someikh on rov, and then some shiur for milsa delo
> shekhichah otherwise?
>   
See HM 15:5.  There seems to be a machlokes aharonim about this; see 
Nesivos Biur #2 ad. loc. who says that the standard is "omed shel kol 
haolam", and see AhS 15:4 who says that we reject the Rambam and permit 
qualified judges their Talmudically granted discretion.

David Riceman

<<But the way you explain it, as being a real minhag, confuses me. If
I would attend a bris during the Nine Days, and bring some meat home for
someone who was unable to attend, surely they would not be allowed to eat
it. Is there a real value in bringing food home, beyond the social
aspect?>>
It is said (I forget the source) that participating in a seudas pidyon haben is equivalent to fasting 84 fasts. Hence spreading the opportunity to participate.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com


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RGDubin wrote:

<<As far as I know, Ashkenazim don't depend on taste, but on bitul. Do you know the proportions?>>

 

I just happen to be learning YD 96.  See the Shach on se'if 1 - while we
don't rely on taste l'chatchila, if one has tasted the food and finds it to
be free of taam, that can be relied upon.  The impression I get is that
there would not even be a chumra or hiddur in not eating it.  

 

If I know that a brand of canned vegetables has no taste of issur (because
I've been eating it for the past 20 years!), can I not assume that the next
can will also have no taam and, based on the above, be muttar? 

 

While I'm at it, I must be moche at an earlier post disrespectful to the
Dayanim of London Beth Din, mipihem anu ochlim, if you'll excuse the
expression.  They are talmidim chachamim muflagim and not just some
minority opinion whose decisions can only be relied on bediavad.  I can
assure you that the most charedi charedim in England will drink ordinary
soft drinks from the supermarket without a hechsher, and eat Tesco
own-brand cereal without a hechsher, because the LBD says that they're OK.

 

I think the viscerally negative reaction by some on this list to the
suggestion that not every food item needs a hechsher arises from an
American and Israeli reality (i.e. widespread hechsherim) that just don't
exist in the rest of the world.  Other Jews just as frum as you in other
countries just don't share the same viewpoint, which I think is more social
than halachic.	This explains the assertion made by one poster that the
benighted Jews of England are bedievedniks relying on a controversial
minority opinion.

 

Yoreh Deah is replete with reliance on concepts such as bittul, chazaka,
etc, and it is clear from the Gemara and Shu"T Rishonim quoted by the BY
and nosei kelim that everyone relied on these concepts once as a matter of
course.  That is why I am especially surprised that RRWolpoe, of all
people, seemingly endorses R. Schwab's attitude that 'we are l'chatchila
yidden' with regard to hechsherim, when this is not and was not the
historical minhag of Jews since the dawn of mass-produced foodstuffs.

 

Kol tuv u'v'teiavon

Dov Kaiser
                                          
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<<Equipment is aino ben yomo. Besides, when factories cross produce, they
sterilize equipment between usage>>

The claim about sterilization is not entirely correct. Factories do
clean between production runs, usually with a process called Cleaning
In Place, which means that the machines and teh processes are designed
to allow for regular cleaning.

Such cleaning uses soaps and other substances, which may be considered
devarim hapogmim, in addition to cleaning with plain water (al this is
for equipment that processes water soluble stuff, if the machines
process fatty substances, like chocolate, the CIP may either be
nonexistent or very different).

Anyway, in my experience, most CIP processes clean at a temperature
below the upper limit of yad soledet bo. For example, milk
pasteurizing machines are often cleaned at 70?C (*9/5+32=158?F if my
math is correct) or barely above that, while the range for yad soledet
bo extends until 86?C or according to some even to 88?C.


DIFFERENT SUBTOPIC:
Regarding London Beth Din's kosher list, I happen to personally know
some of teh people involved, and they do indeed check quite a lot of
facts about the products they certify.

As someone with some expertise in this area (I produced and maintained
for several years our community's kosher list, partly based on the
underlying work of an intercommunal kashrus organization), I can tell
you that one reason for certifying products and not relying on umdenot
is that a number of ingredients may be produced kosher or non kosher.
Thus, many emulsifiers may come from animal fat, eggs or soy.
Likewise, a number of milk products may come from milk or recycled
from production of other milk products, including cheese.

To experts, this matters may be apparent when they look at ingredient
lists, but taht is not always the case.

The issue of whether or not canned vegetables may be consumed without
a hekhsher is actually a matter that depends on the locality. In some
locales, large monoculture plants dominate (they only do beans, for
example), while in others efficient pluriculture plants may dominate.
In addition, the prevalence of problems is subject to disagreements
among experts. Thus, LBD's statement may be true in the UK while being
untrue in some other countries.

I just set before you a small sample of the issues. As always, it is
important to SYLOR, though if he is not an expert in the field, you
should instead or in addition approach your local hashgicho agency.
-- 
Arie Folger,
Latest blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* UK Commander Challenges Goldstone Report
* On the Stereotypical Jew
* Wieso ?ruhte? G?tt?
* Wir sind f?r die Evolution!

This is the million dollar question.

 

I'm sure that someone will post an answer. Until then here's a few reading suggestions:

 

Emunah v'Bitachon (in English as "Faith and Trust"-Judaica Press) by the Chazon Ish

 

Garden of Emuna (distributed by Feldheim)-R Lazer Brody (note: it is pro-Breslov, not that there's anything wrong with that)

 

Most things by R Aryeh Kaplan z"tl (his footnotes will keep you busy for years)



Sincerely,
 
Neil Harris 


                                          
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Rav Moshe Feinstein discusses using a polygraph to determine the wishes 
of a dying man to divorce his wife who can't speak

EH 4 #98

R' Micha Berger wrote:
> The gemara speaks about prospicious times for prayer. Does
> it laudibly speak of anyone utilizing them? (Other than
> Bil'am knowing the moment of Hashem's anger [Berakhos 7a],
> which is obviously no raayah, and davening kesaqin which
> is about zerizim maqdimin, not timing for metaphysical
> effectiveness.)

Two examples that come to mind are:

1) Not saying tachanun or selichos in the first half of the night, though I forget why.

2) But whatever the reason for #1 was, Yom Kipur being an "eis ratzon" trumps it, making slichos after Kol Nidre ok.

Akiva Miller

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Dov Kaiser:
> That is why I am especially surprised that RRWolpoe, of all people,
> seemingly endorses R. Schwab's attitude that 'we are l'chatchila
> yidden' with regard to hechsherim, when this is not and was not the
> historical minhag of Jews since the dawn of mass-produced foodstuffs. 

WADR I think this misconstrues my position

Bottom line
- Individuals might be able to buy product X and rely upon bedie'eveds
  already in the process
- While a kashrus ceritifier may be proscribed lchatchilah from using
  that same bedieved.
- The history is that certain agencies lechtchila relied upon bedieved's
  and Rav Schwab and others frowned upon this. Now most of those
  bedieved's are truly used only bedieved

Think of Gelatin. Although articles have permitted animal gelatin
lema'aseh few kashsrus agencies would go for that kula. But AFAIK,
bedeived, it won't "treif" up your dishes.

When I was in Ner in Toronto [circa 1968] we bought local Heinz Ketchup
beshogeg not realizing it lacked hashgacha

The Rabbanim said it was "unkosher" but they were IIRC meikel on the
dishes bedieved.

If Bedi'eved would equal lechathcila then using dishwashers with meat
and milk at the same time would be OK according to many. BUT AFAIK, it's
not OK to do - except that bedieved we may not have to trash the dishes.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 11:48pm GMT, RRW <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>
wrote:
: When you buy uncertified products, there may be an entire slew of
: "bittuls" that may be genuinely relied upon.
: But when one certifies a product, lechatchilah's take over [EG ein
: mevatlin afilu issur derabbanan lechatchila]

I find the words "lechatkhilah" and "bedi'eved" (or bedi'avad) here to
be confusing.

When dealing with bitul, there is only bitul bedi'eved. This includes
anything made by a non-Jew, since he has no "lechatkhilah", and thus we
only get the taaroves after it exists.

So far, I used the terms lechatkhilah and bedieved relative to the time
of mixing. Let's talk lechtakhilah and bedi'eved relative to eating it.

As this point, bitul already occured. I am under the impression that
I can now eat the result lechatkhilah, that it is no less kosher than
had that 1% of whatever not fallen in.

Was I mistaken?

Because according to my understanding, once the non-Jewish company did
the mixture, the tarfus (using the term generically) is batul, not
there, and may be eaten with no qualms. (At least no halachic ones.
Aggadic concerns about whether it's still metamteim es haleiv would
drag us back to whether the cheftzah of mezuzah protects or the qiyum
hamitzvah. The mezuzah with a chezqas kashrus that kelapei shemaya galya
is pasul -- does it protect less? Perhaps the same question.)

This is at odds with what RRW wrote, and in general he knows YD far
better than I. Admittedly my understanding is something of a chiddush,
but that's the whole reason why it stuck in my head!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Areivim, Micha Berger wrote:

> Seriously, though, every time I
> hear of someone making a se'udas hoda'ah for this yesh'uah or that, I
> thank HQBH for saving me from even needing a yeshu'ah. Every time my
> child crosses the street and there were no hidden cars, I got a bigger
> berakhah than that of the neighbor who thanks G-d their son healed.
> 
> Of course, without the stories of close calls and repaired problems, we
> wouldn't be able to. Who could possibly think of everything that could
> have gone wrong, but didn't. this might be the point of birkhas Gevuros
> and how gevurah is proven by "Mechayeh meisim..., someikh nofelim, rofei
> cholim, matir assurim..."

This reminds me of the Malbim's interpretation of the conversation between
Hashem and Moshe Rabbenu, in which Hashem tells Moshe "mi sam peh la'adam".
According to the Malbim, Moshe argued to Hashem that since he was not given
the gift of elocution, this must not be part of his shlichus, and therefore
it would make more sense for someone else to go; in other words he thought
that the default state of man is not to have any powers at all, and any
powers that a person was given are gifts that are necessary for his
shlichus, and therefore indicate to him what that shlichus is.  Hashem's
answer, though, is "mi SAM peh la'adam, o mi YASUM ilem o cheresh": "Who
GAVE man a mouth, or who MAKES him dumb or deaf?"  In other words, when
I created man I gave him a mouth; the default state of man is to have all
the normal faculties, whether he needs them or not, and nothing can be
inferred from his having them.  But when creating each individual,
I sometimes make someone dumb or deaf, and that is always for a reason,
which can be inferred and can guide him to work out what his shlichus is.
In your case, Moshe, I made you inarticulate precisely so that when you
come and speak eloquently in My name, everyone will know that I really
sent you.

Ad kan the Malbim.   It seems to me that the point you make about it
being a small miracle each time something goes right is reminiscent
of Moshe's hava amina.  But according to Hashem's answer it would follow
that crossing the road at the lights and not getting hit is simply the
normal way Hashem runs His world, and doesn't count as a miracle, even
of the "nisecha sheb'chol yom imanu" kind.  Rather, that phrase refers
to the times when there *is* a car about to run the light, or whatever,
and something happens to prevent it, so that it *appears* to you that
nothing special happened, but really "ein baal hanes makir benisso".
For example, R Akiva's daughter not getting bit by a snake every night
of her life was not a miracle at all; her not getting bit on her
wedding night appeared at the time not to be any different, but later
turned out to have been a miracle, and would have been so even if she
had never noticed the dead snake, and therefore the story had never
come down to us.

Kein nir'ah li.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 01:51:12PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
:                      It seems to me that the point you make about it
: being a small miracle each time something goes right is reminiscent
: of Moshe's hava amina.  But according to Hashem's answer it would follow
: that crossing the road at the lights and not getting hit is simply the
: normal way Hashem runs His world, and doesn't count as a miracle, even
: of the "nisecha sheb'chol yom imanu" kind....

I don't think I mentioned miracles. However, I'm more inclined to agree
with REED that nature is more like predictable miracle than anything the
rishonim thought of it. IOW, I don't find the Malbim's model as
compelling.

And I use the word "model" very intentionally. The difference between
attributing something to teva or to a later shelichus is how we choose
to model "actions" of One Who doesn't experience time. The machloqes is
really which way that we temporal beings can best relate to an "act" that
has no particular point in time. The only real time is when the effect is
felt within the universe, and that's not under discussion. Rather, it's
whether Hashem did it during maaseh bereishis when He set the system up,
or later. And the answer is neither -- it is our models of something we
can't fully comprehend that force one or the other.

Aspaqlaria: Divine Timelessness
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2005/01/divine-timelessness.shtml>:
    Bereishis Rabbah (5:5):
        G-d made the creation of water conditional on its splitting
        before the Jews when they left Egypt....It was not just with
        the sea that He made a stipulation but with everything that
        He created during the six days of creation.... G-d commanded
        the sea to divide, the heavens and earth to be silent before
        Moshe...the sun and the moon to stand still before Yehoshua,
        the ravens to feed Eliyahu, the fire not to burn Chananya,
        Mishael and Azariyah, the lions not to harm Daniel, the Heavens
        to open before Yechezkeil and the fish to spit out Yonah.

    (See also Rambam Shemoneh Peraqim, ch 8, his commentary on Avos 5:6,
    and Rabbeinu Bachye on Avos 5:8. Sources posted to Avodah by R'
    Daniel Eidensohn.)

    The problem with miracles is that they seem to imply that G-d changed
    His Mind between establishing the natural order and choosing to
    perform that miracle. However, G-d is timeless.
    ...
    Similarly, our opening issue. Miracles were written into creation
    because Hashem has no "initially" and "later". The decisions were made
    "simultaneously", for want of a better word to say "not separated
    by time". And in fact, they were therefore the same decision.

    This is true for every event of all of creation. God created a 4d
    sculpture. Not a watch that He could then leave to run on its own.
    (The use of the word "then" in the previous sentence is a tip-off.
    It makes sense only in the context of time.) Picture the printing of
    a timeline in a book. The spot of ink representing 1702 was printed
    in the same act as the spot representing 2004. Because from the
    perspective of His Action there is no time, all of the history of
    the universe is equally ma'aseh bereishis -- the act of creation.
    Our persistence from one moment to the next is the same "strike of
    the printing press" as the six days at the far end of the timeline.
    Deism is simply not tenable if time is a created entity.

What I did discuss is hakaras hatov. And one can be equally makir that
HQBH set up a teva such that things overwhelmingly most often go right.
That the things that go wrong are rare enough to make us ask, "Why
me, G-d?"

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
mi...@aishdas.org        It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
http://www.aishdas.org   and helps us cope with adversity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507         - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"

Micha:
> I find the words "lechatkhilah" and "bedi'eved" (or bedi'avad) here to
> be confusing.?

Same as a dispute last year about dairy bread.

Given one is NOT permitted to bake dairy bread w/o making the bread
self-evidently dairy.

OK, now you are a consumer of "Arnold's" dairy bread.
May you buy it lechatchila or not?

Does the labeling outside bed'avad constitute making up for the lack of
an intrinsic shape?
Some agencies used to certify this very kind of bread. Most now do not.
When I teach SA I point out that on the "timeline" there may be several
instances of lechatchila

In this case
    + Keilim cleaning time
    + Food prep time
    + Purchasing time etc.

AFAIK, an agency would NOT give hashgacha on a bittul done by a non-Jew
under its certification - because it would be deemed mevatlin issur
lechatchilah. This is AIUI the position against animal gelatin.

OTOH, once batteil outside the auspices of a hashgachah, the food may
be halachically kosher

Another illustration:

May a Deli sell chikcen livers broiled after 3 days following shechita?

Agency 1 yes we are not choshesh that those broiled livers will be cooked
by the purchaser later on

Agency 2
We allow ZERO chicken livers unless we can guarantee that all livers are
processed within the 3 day time frame lest a baal-ha-bayyis subsequently
cook it.

Frankly, agency 1 is too lenient - they fail to label that this liver
product may only be broiled and never cooked

Frankly Agency 2 is being machmir too much because most pasqen that if
the baal habbayyis did cook it, it doesn't treif up anything since it's
only a Gaonic Humra anyway.

So if I were agency 1.5 I would allow it and carefully label the warning,
"BEWARE liver may have been broiled after 3 days"

In the. Chicken liver case we have many points on the timeline
    + Before 3 days
    + After 3 days before broiling
    + Broiled after 3 days before purchasing
    + Purchased but not yet cooked
    + Already cooked liver that was broiled after 3 days.

Here's another case of policy
Only cooking it raw requires the mashgiach to light the fire.
For Re-heated he need not light.
BUT kosher agencies usually keep the matches and lighters out of the hands
of non-Jewish cooks accross the board - though not strictly reuquired -
it's simple common sense to do so!

And AIUI we can rely on eino ben yomo and other kullos to buy coffee
from an uncertified starbucks or duncan donuts

BUT
Once under hashgacha that's not permitted lechatchila.

Which was my original post.

I still have not mastered the entire corpus of Kashrus by any means,
but I can see from experience how the SA in issur v'heter is implemented
in practice for the main cases.

I'll give another case

Certifier 3 says 
"Do not use fresh brocolli florets at all -only frozen with a hashgacha"

I called up an official there and he said "except for our professional
mashgicihim who MAY be trusted". IOW the strict policy is for baalebatim
The more lenient policy is for commercial hashgacha which assumes rinsing
soaping, rinsing and inspecting, etc. An onerous task for an amateur.

I told my wife, no more fresh broccoli @ home and I won't eat the florets
at other baalei-batim whom I otherwise trust.

@@@@@@@@@@@@

Subbing at a now defunct restaurant they were serving strawberries WHOLE

I told the owner -
"the OU has recently emailed the community against strawberries whose
stems have not been removed! This is mar'is ho'ayin of the highest order
no matter how much we succesfully clean them! People will NOW expect the
stems to be cut-off and we must comply lest we are seen as non-compliant."

So a lot goes into hashgacha above what is permitted for a "ba'al
habbayyis."

A ba'al habbayyis is like laining the Haftara from a printed sefer

A hashgacha is like laining from a klaf, a lot of prep goes on behind
the sceenes, even if the output sounds alike.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

[Feel free to edit or to aupplement]

http://www.
answerway.com/viewans.php?pgtitle=Judaism&;expid=ETWolverine&cat
egory=657&msection=0&quesid=17383&ansid=59701
[which is quoting
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/the-laws-of-cooking-on-shabbos/
02.htm
    The Laws Of Cooking On Shabbos
    Based on the Sefer Shabbos KeHalachah
    by Rabbi Y. Farkash
    Following the rulings of the Rebbeim of Chabad
-mi]

    Ask Questions - Get Answers [ Judaism - Answers ]

    Question 3:
    Liquids
    A liquid that has been heated to the temperature of "Yad Soledes Bo,"
    i.e., a temperature at which one would withdraw one's hand from such a
    liquid due to the intensity of heat, is considered cooked.

    Most Poskim agree that Yad Soledes Bo is between 40 and 45 degrees
    Celsius, or approximately 110 degrees Fahrenheit.[11]

    That is the basic rule of thumb for Yad Soledes Bo.

[Footnote 11 reads:
    Shabbos KeHalachah, p. 24.

To which I would add: In contrast, Shemiras Shabbos Kehilkhasah 1:1
gives only the top of that range -- 45deg C, 113deg F. Gives it as a "lo
pachos mei-".
RMF in IM OC 4:74-75 gives a range. 110deg F lechumerah, but WRT an
item being cooked before Shabbos, so that colder is qulah, RMF requires
160deg F.
-mi]

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:

> I have heard of, and seen, people who bring home food from a bris or
> from a kiddush. But I thought that it was simply a way of helping that
> person snack, helping them to *feel* like they had attended. 
> But the way you explain it, as being a real minhag, confuses me. If I
> would attend a bris during the Nine Days, and bring some meat home for
> someone who was unable to attend, surely they would not be allowed to
> eat it. Is there a real value in bringing food home, beyond the social
> aspect?

See Ramo OC 568:2.  It is clear from this Ramo that eating food from a
seudas mitzvah is not the same as actually being there, and therefore one
could not eat meat on a day when the local minhag is not to eat it.  But
from the fact that he has to say so, it seems that there is a real value
to eating such food, i.e. that the person does get some schar for having
participated in the se'udas mitzvah, even if it's not a full participation.
I recall seeing somewhere, I don't remember where, that although normally
if the seudas bris is over then tachanun is said at mincha, if there are
people present who were sent food and have not yet eaten it then tachanun
is not said.  (Obviously this does not extend to the next day; one can't
just stick the food in the freezer and omit tachnun until Erev Pesach!)

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 02, 2009, RRW <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>: When you buy uncertified products, there may be an entire slew of
>: "bittuls" that may be genuinely relied upon.
>: But when one certifies a product, lechatchilah's take over [EG ein
>: mevatlin afilu issur derabbanan lechatchila]

> I find the words "lechatkhilah" and "bedi'eved" (or bedi'avad) here to
> be confusing. 
> When dealing with bitul, there is only bitul bedi'eved. This includes
> anything made by a non-Jew, since he has no "lechatkhilah", and thus we
> only get the taaroves after it exists.

If he is making it without a hechsher, for the goyishe market, then it's
bediavad.  But if you give the product a hechsher *before* it's made,
then it's lechatchila.  You can't rely on the fact that it *will have*
become batel by the time the consumer buys it.

As for bitul by a goy, the Rashbo holds that his bitul is lechatchila
and therefore the food is forbidden.  The Noda Biyhuda holds that the
Rambam regards it as bediavad and permits it, and paskens like the Rambam.

See http://tinyurl.com/ygqsxbg

martin brody wrote:
> True, but it is bdi eved regarding the utensils.
> Rav Moshe trust the company regarding the vegetable oil.

He allows a rov to trust a letter from the company specifically stating
that all oil used in the product is from vegetable origin.  He neither
says nor implies anything about relying on ingredient lists.

> What products bother you regarding factory bishul akum? You've never 
> heard of anyone? Rav Moshe says it's OK.

Where does he say this?

[The other RMB pointed us to IM 1:55 twice now. Once on Areivim,
and repeated here. -micha]

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher


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