Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 247

Tue, 08 Dec 2009

• 1. Seeking Source for Quote from R Eliezer (Richard Wolberg)
• 2. Re: Kashrus (Isaac Balbin)
• 3. Tzarchei tzibbur and the large family (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Just How hot is Yad Soledes Bo anyway? (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 5. Re: Just How hot is Yad Soledes Bo anyway? (T6...@aol.com)
• 6. Re: Kashrus (Ben Waxman)
• 7. Re: Kashrus (Ben Waxman)
• 8. Re: Kashrus (T6...@aol.com)
• 9. Re: Kashrus (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 10. Re: Seeking Source for Quote from R Eliezer (Joshua Meisner)
• 11. Re: Kashrus (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 12. Bishul Aku'm in factories (Dov Kaiser)
• 13. Re: Kashrus (Allan Engel)
• 14. Re: Kashrus (Samuel Svarc)
• 15. Re: Just How hot is Yad Soledes Bo anyway? (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: kosher lists (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: kosher lists (Zev Sero)
• 18. Re: minhag avos (Danny Schoemann)

In Chofetz Chaim Daily companion P. 259 R. Eliezer Hagadol is quoted
advising his son: "Do not sit with groups that talk about the faults of others..."
Where can this be found?     

In the B'air Mayim Chaim, the Chofetz Chaim remarks that there are numerous
references to this concept in other places in Tanach and in halachos from
the Rabanan. In Tehillim Perek Alef, for example, we are told how fortunate
one is if he avoids the company of sinners and scoffers. In addition, check
the Chofetz Chaim at the end of prohibition number 4.
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> 
> 
> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:42:21 GMT
> From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
> To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] Kashrus
> 
> 
> Whoever it was, he used the phrases "American model" and "European
> model", where the phrase "American model" describes a situation where
> supervision is actively given to the factory, and "European model"
> describes a situation where there is no formal supervision, but only
> an analysis of the manufacturing after-the-fact. In the American
> model, he explained, the company pays a fee to the supervisor, putting
> the two in a very close relationship identity-wise, while in the
> European model no such relationship exists. The result is that many
> actions taken by a factory end up as "b'dieved okay" in the European
> model, while the exact same action would be called "ain mevatlin issur
> l'chatchila" in the American model.
> 

In Australia, the main kashrus body has both categories and they both make
sense. They categorise some products as eg Pareve Mehadrin (P#) and others
as Pareve Kosher (P) viz American vs European models. Somebody who seeks to
eat only Mehadrin, or a particular caterer that needs to provide such for
their clientele has the ability to do so without necessarily purchasing
overseas goods. The difference between former times and now is the increase
in the availability of mehadrin coupled with the notion of tumah
influencing the spirit of the person eating a "shemetz" of issur because
one uses various combination of "heterim". I like the word mehadrin in the
context. It's not a good idea to imply by word or thought that unless its
Mehadrin it's not kosher. Each to their own. We seem to be a generation of
"Baalei Nefesh" yet also pale in comparison to our forbearers when it comes
to middos and other matters, but I digress.


We know, for sure, that when one is faced with a situation where one is
eating in someone's house and the food may be kosher but not necessarily
mehadrin that it's better to not insult the bein adom lamokom. I'm not
aware that this requires hatoras nedarim either. Similarly in Hilchos
Shabbos. If you go to a Sefardi house where they, for example, rely on Ain
Bishul after Bishul even on a Davar Lach, and you are presented with
something warmed and lach, that you are permitted to eat it, as I recall.

The other consideration is the method of Psak. R' Chaim and his student R'
Chaim Volozhiner did not encourage the use of Tziruf in heteirim. The
Briskers, adopting perhaps the more rationalist mode of Psak, said that the
Posek has to be convinced that something is muttar (or assur), They can't
take two doubts/heterim and combine them. Someone once said that this is
why Brisker Poskim were less prevalent. On the other hand, this was in my
opinion also one of the hall marks of R' Moshe (and R' Shlomo Zalman) who
were able to Pasken often from first principles and deal with any questions
on their Psak, more in the mode of the Brisker shita perhaps.

I wonder whether some of the triangle K issues relate to this issue because
in times gone by they used tzirufim (and there is nothing wrong with that
in my opinion)

Say the dining room light or oven, or some other item needed by the entire
family was off on Shabbos by mistake. The family has numerous children,
so that more than a minyan of people are relying on it.

Would it qualify as tzarkhei tzibbur WRT amira le'akum?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Strength does not come from winning. Your
mi...@aishdas.org        struggles develop your strength When you go
http://www.aishdas.org   through hardship and decide not to surrender,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      that is strength.        - Arnold Schwarzenegger

R"n Chana Luntz wrote:
> While you no doubt could have an argument about what the
> state is that Chazal were referring to regarding a baby's
> tummy, surely what we classify as a burn must fit within
> that, and so anything that is deemed to cause a first
> degree burn surely that would fit within the definition?

Surely? Surely not. Or maybe. The above would make just as much sense if
you had written "second degree" or "third degree". I have no idea which
kind of burn Chazal were referring to, and the length of this thread would
suggest that no one else does either.

R' Rich Wolpoe wrote:
> We weren't measuring YSB directly. We were measuring what
> is the threshold temperature that cooking-bishul takes
> place.

But how do you know when you have cooked something to the point that *Chazal* would have considered it cooked?

Let's remember the famous discussion between the Aruch Hashulchan and Rav Moshe Feinstein:

Aruch Hashulchan O"C 318:28 - "Tea, which we pour hot water upon, and it is
common knowledge that it cooks easily, and it gets cooked even in a kli
sheni, as our eyes can see. ... Our eyes can see that it cooks in a kli
sheni and kli shlishi, because it cooks easily ..."

Igros Moshe O"C 4:74, Bishil 15 (pg 136) - "That's not understandable.
Granted that our eyes can see the water get red, but that has nothing to do
with bishul. Even in totally cold water it will get red over time! And even
more so in warm water which is below yad soledes, and this does not
constitute bishul...."

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Senior Assisted Living
Put your loved ones in good hands with quality senior assisted living. Click now!
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From: Micha Berger _micha@aishdas.org_ (mailto:mi...@aishdas.org) 

>> My mom,  who has been cooking and occasionally burning her hands for
decades, has a  much higher tolerance than I do -- never mind than I did
back when my skin  was softer. <<

-- 
Micha  Berger             
 
 

>>>>>
My grandmother A'H used to take pots off the stove or move them around on  
the stove with her bare hands -- no pot holders -- and did not seem to feel 
the  heat.  As a girl I could not understand this but now I think it might 
be  like the way people can walk on hot coals -- if you do it fast enough 
there  isn't time to burn or even to feel the heat.  This makes me wonder if 
the  temperature of yad soledes bo has a time factor -- how /long/ can you 
keep your  hand in the hot water before you feel the heat?  If you can keep 
your hand  in for thirty seconds it's not yad soledes bo but if you would jerk 
your hand  away after a second it is yad soledes bo?  Something like that?
 
 

--Toby  Katz
==========

--------------------
 




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This is not "for sure". The Sha'Kh in YD 117, has a long section where he 
talks about someone eating in the home of some who has different minhagim 
and goes by different pskei halakha. He does say "well, if you don't eat 
something because of a minhag you can eat it at your host's house". He gives 
conditions when you can eat the food and when you can't.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Isaac Balbin" <Isaac.Bal...@rmit.edu.au>
>
> We know, for sure, that when one is faced with a situation where one is 
> eating in someone's house and the food may be kosher but not necessarily 
> mehadrin that it's better to not insult the bein adom lamokom. I'm not 
> aware that this requires hatoras nedarim either. Similarly in Hilchos 
> Shabbos. If you go to a Sefardi house where they, for example, rely on Ain 
> Bishul after Bishul even on a Davar Lach, and you are presented with 
> something warmed and lach, that you are permitted to eat it, as I recall.

Correction. The Sha"kh is in YD 119:19.

Ben
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Isaac Balbin" <Isaac.Bal...@rmit.edu.au>
>>
>> We know, for sure, that when one is faced with a situation where one is 
>> eating in someone's house and the food may be kosher but not necessarily 
>> mehadrin that it's better to not insult the bein adom lamokom. I'm not 
>> aware that this requires hatoras nedarim either. Similarly in Hilchos 
>> Shabbos. If you go to a Sefardi house where they, for example, rely on 
>> Ain Bishul after Bishul even on a Davar Lach, and you are presented with 
>> something warmed and lach, that you are permitted to eat it, as I recall.
> 

 
 
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" _kennethgmiller@juno.com_ 
(mailto:kennethgmil...@juno.com) 


I  quote from the article titled "Kellogg Corn Flakes", originally 
published  February 15, 1980.... 


,,,"However, a number of cereals and other products enjoy the trust of the  
Orthodox community. This is no accident. Some reliable kashrus experts have 
 examined these products and found them to be acceptable. "This question 
was  raised recently by a well-known authority on kashrus. Those kashrus  
organizations who investigated Kellogg and found certain products to be  
acceptable have done accurate research. But, how can we be certain that Kellogg  
will continue to produce kosher corn flakes? ...

"Shall we assume that if  they decide to change ingredients in one of the 
"acceptable" cereals in order to  save some money, Kellogg will place a large 
advertisement in the Jewish papers  in order to notify us all. Far from it. 
The Kellogg company right now has no one  to answer to since nobody 
certifies their kashrus...."

....One could  still argue: Do such products need supervision or not? 

Akiva Miller
 
 
 
>>>>>
The article you quoted gives one very strong argument in favor of  
hechsherim as opposed to lists:  if a company is under contract with a  kashrus 
agency, it can't change the ingredients in its supervised products  without 
informing the kashrus agency.
 

--Toby  Katz
==========

--------------------  





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Isaac Balbin: 
> They categorise some products as eg Pareve Mehadrin (P#) and others as
> Pareve Kosher (P) viz American vs European models.
 
When I learned YD with R Yosef Weiss, he was quite cynical about the
quality of commercial enterprises in general.
 
IOW if you think "home-cooking" bests 
Commercial Cooking in terms of taste and quality of ingredients, then
the same would to for Kashrius too.
 
IOW a conscientious Baal habayis or Ba'alebuste 
Would probably be more throrough than a profit motive enterprise. [These
were not his words but his idea]
 
Today's commercial humros are a form of "trickle-down" quality. The
thinking is that if one sets the bar high-enough in commercial
establishments, even given the usual shortcuts taken, the result will
be an acceptable quality.
 
I'm not saying this is a good idea or a bad idea, it's just the prevailing
idea! :-).
 
Humros are installed the way the military uses redundancy in order to
ensure success in the mission
 
KT 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 6:06 PM, <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In Chofetz Chaim Daily companion P. 259 R. Eliezer Hagadol is quoted
> advising his son:
> "Do not sit with groups that talk about the faults of others..."
>
> Where can this be found?
> Is this an aggadita in Bavli? Or Pirkei R Eliezer?



It's cited in several places in Sefer Chofetz Chaim and Shmiras HaLashon
(e.g., CC P'sicha, Lav 4) in the name of Tzava'as R' Eliezer.  A Google
search indicates that it's found in (Chapter?) 7.


Joshua Meisner
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R"n Toby Katz wrote:
> The article you quoted gives one very strong argument in
> favor of hechsherim as opposed to lists:  if a company is
> under contract with a kashrus agency, it can't change the
> ingredients in its supervised products without informing
> the kashrus agency.
 
Oh, yes, I agree most definitely.

But this is a reason to WANT the "American model", not to REQUIRE it.

Throughout Shulchan Aruch, we find over and over that Chazal trusted us to
be reasonable about manufacturing methods and the chances of getting
fooled. There are some cases where they put their foot down and said, "This
is too sensisitive - you can't take chances," but there are other cases
where they said, "Unless you have some reason for suspicion, don't worry."

Example 1: Cholov Yisrael - This is a product where the consumer is easily
fooled, and a certain degree of fraud was known to exist. Chazal therefore
instituted that a certain degree of hashgacha is required. If a non-Jewish
milkman has a great reputation for selling only pure cow milk, he still
cannot be relied on. He must be supervised, although some poskim hold that
government supervision is adequate.

Example 2: Pas Palter - Pas Akum was forbidden because of intermarriage
problems, not because of questionable ingredients. In many societies, and
for long periods of time, it was well known to all that there was no
kashrus problem with the bread in the local non-Jewish bakery. Pas Palter
is therefore specifically allowed in those times and places. When and where
it is discouraged, it is discouraged for reasons having nothing to do with
the kashrus of the ingredients. When and where there is reason to suspect a
problem with the ingredients, then it is not merely discouraged for Pas
Palter reasons, but forbidden like any other product with questionable
kashrus.

Example 3: Eggs - No one sells nonkosher eggs. Not in the days of the
Gemara, not in the days of the Shulchan Aruch, and not today. Eggs, if they
are still in the shell, and are not explicitly labeled as coming from a
nonkosher bird, do not need a hechsher, Period.

The European model is not a substandard way of observing kashrus. It is a
*different* way of observing kashrus. It is the way Jews have acted for
millennia. I think we will all agree that there are certain advantages to
the American model, but one must be very careful in describing those
advantages, lest he be Motzi Laaz Al Harishonim. I will not point fingers,
but I think that there may be some in this thread who have stepped over
that line.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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R. Martin Brody posted earlier that R. Moshe Feinstein held that the issur
of bishul aku'm does not apply to foodstuffs cooked in a factory.  See page
18 of OU's Daf HaKashrus publication for a discussion of this hetter: http://pro
gram.ouradio.org/content/files/Daf%2017-3b.pdf.  I thank R. Akiva
Miller for posting this link in an earlier post.
 
For the record, R. Belsky is quoted in this publication as holding that
this hetter cannot be relied on alone, but only as a s'nif l'hakel where
there is another lenient consideration (e.g. the mashgiach merely lights
the pilot light, which is bediavad according to many opinions).
 
Kol tuv
Dov Kaiser
                                          
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R"n Toby Katz wrote:
> > The article you quoted gives one very strong argument in
> > favor of hechsherim as opposed to lists:  if a company is
> > under contract with a kashrus agency, it can't change the
> > ingredients in its supervised products without informing
> > the kashrus agency.
>
>
This can also be true where there is no direct supervision. AFAIK the LBD
has commercial agreements in place with producers that appear on their list
that they will not change ingredients or production practices without
informing the LBD.
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On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Allan Engel <allan.en...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> R"n Toby Katz wrote:
>> > The article you quoted gives one very strong argument in
>> > favor of hechsherim as opposed to lists: ?if a company is
>> > under contract with a kashrus agency, it can't change the
>> > ingredients in its supervised products without informing
>> > the kashrus agency.
>>
>
> This can also be true where there is no direct supervision. AFAIK the
> LBD has commercial agreements in place with producers that appear on
> their list that >they will not change ingredients or production
> practices without informing the LBD.

And if the company runs out of a kosher ingredient and the only one
available is non-kosher they will shut down production because of this
agreement, or will they say that only permanent ingredient changes are
covered?

KT,
MSS

On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 02:03:18AM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: Aruch Hashulchan O"C 318:28 - "Tea, which we pour hot water upon, and
: it is common knowledge that it cooks easily...

: Igros Moshe O"C 4:74, Bishil 15 (pg 136) - "That's not
: understandable. Granted that our eyes can see the water get red, but
: that has nothing to do with bishul...

People in the tea industry agree with RMF, FWIW. The leaves don't cook
during brewing. I checked with experts, including a frum Jew who imports
gourmet teas from the far east. But here is commonsense evidence: Did
anyone else notice that a cup of tea made with a used teabag taste the
same, although perhaps weaker, as the first cup? How would that be
possible if the leaf was changed by the first steeping?

Aside from that, black (including orange pekoe) tea is already oxidized
and then pan roasted or steamed to end the oxidization. IOW, cooking
would have been at worst bishul achar tzeli. Far from qalei bishul.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You are where your thoughts are.
mi...@aishdas.org                - Ramban, Igeres Hakodesh, Ch. 5
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 08:18:59PM +0100, Arie Folger wrote:
: So, regular, unmodified CIP is usually not good enough to assume that
: lines were kashered.

R' Ralbag disagrees, which is one of the reasons why many don't use his
hechsher.

The other reason why a well-known national hashgachah won't allow
triangle-K products as ingredients or items in the menu of places they
certify is that his yotz'im venichnasim infrequent. To the point that
they heard comments from company representatives from firms under the
triangle-K indicating a lack of worry about getting caught.

Not that there is a published shiur on the frequency of the yotzei
venikhnas. The cleaned-in-place issue is observable -- there are remains
left be'ein. The question sounds to me more like allowing nachriim commit
bitul lechat-khilah. Which is where I entered the thread.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is harder to eat the day before Yom Kippur
mi...@aishdas.org        with the proper intent than to fast on Yom
http://www.aishdas.org   Kippur with that intent.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Micha Berger wrote:

> The other reason why a well-known national hashgachah won't allow
> triangle-K products as ingredients or items in the menu of places they
> certify is that his yotz'im venichnasim infrequent. To the point that
> they heard comments from company representatives from firms under the
> triangle-K indicating a lack of worry about getting caught.
> 
> Not that there is a published shiur on the frequency of the yotzei
> venikhnas.

A few years ago I was at a factory which made products under three
different hechsherim.  Someone asked the quality control manager what
differences he perceived between the three.  He answered that hechsher
A came every two months, hechsher B came every three months, and apart
from that he could see no difference between them.  As for hechsher C,
he said, "in the seven years I've been here I've never seen them once".


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

RDK wrote:
>> > However, the undisputed minhag EY is not to wear tefillin, so I don't,

To which Rabbi Arie Folger responded:
>> >That is actually not entirely correct. There are pockets of
>> >communities in Israel, which adhere to the noble tradition of Ashkenaz
>> >(not to say Sefarad isn't noble, the point is that they are most noble
>> >in their original forms, true to their messorot). Mekhon Moreshet
>> >Ashkenaz is at the center of just such a network of shuls.

I did some research on this, and RAF suggested I post the results it to Avoda.

1.) About a decade ago I davened 2 or 3 times in the shul in the
Maynei Hayeshua Hospital in Bnai Brak on Hoshano Rabo, which is where
the author of "Shoresh Minhagie Ashkenaz" davened. IIRC he was even
Shat"z for part of the Tefilos.

I'm almost 100% sure that nobody was wearing Tefillin.

My father and bothers who davened there too, confirmed this.

2.) Rav Hamburger wrote to my brother Michael :

> From: beni54
> Date: 2009/11/30
> Subject: RE: [Avodah] minhag avos
> To: Michael Schoemann
> ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??????, ????? ??? ??????. ??? ????? ??
> ????? ???????.

For those - like myself - who don't get the Hebrew in Avoda:
"Nowadays,in some of our shuls they put on Tefilin, in some they
don't. I daven with those that do put on Tefilin."

3.) My brother Avi responded with:

This response is from a friend of mine, Hillel Hoffner, who works on
publishing and other stuff for Rav Homberger in Bnei Brak:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: HH
> Date: 2009/11/30
> Subject: Re: tefillin
> To: A Schoemann
>
> ??  ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ???,  ??? ??? ??
> ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ????"? ?? ???????? ?????? ??
> ???????? ???????
> ???? ???, ??????? ???
> ?? ?????? ???????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????

For those - like myself - who don't get the Hebrew in Avoda:
"They are the second Minyan which put on Tefilin on Chol hamoed and
HR, BTW they are not the first Minyan to put on Tefilin in EY on CH,
since In Jerusalem the Hungarian Pressburg also have this Minhag. Also
on HR they don't say the extra Shabbat Mizmorim in Psukei DZimra, as
per Minag Ashkenaz"

So it seems that Rabbi Arie Folger is correct that "there are pockets
of communities in Israel, which adhere to the noble tradition of
Ashkenaz"

(Those who want the email addresses of any of the 4 non A/A mentioned
above, please contact me off-list.)

- Danny

------------------------------


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