Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 255

Wed, 16 Dec 2009

• 1. How to light the Menorah (Jonathan Dickson)
• 2. Re: Dishwashers 1 (Isaac Balbin)
• 3. Re: anarchy/libertarianism (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 4. Re: anarchy/libertarianism (T6...@aol.com)
• 5. generation lists (Zvi Lampel)
• 6. Re: generation lists (Danny Schoemann)
• 7. Re: generation lists (T6...@aol.com)
• 8. Re: Hanukkah I and Hanukkah II (Chana Luntz)
• 9. Re: How to light the Menorah (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 10. Re: How to light the Menorah (T6...@aol.com)
• 11. Re: How to light the Menorah (Alan Rubin)
• 12. Glycerine in mouth wash (martin brody)
• 13. Re: Glycerine in mouth wash (Prof. Levine)
• 14. Re: Glycerine in mouth wash (martin brody)
• 15. Microwaves, etc. (was Dishwashers 1) (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 16. Re: anarchy/libertarianism (Zev Sero)

Re Alan Rubin's query on lighting the Menorah with oil, my personal
approach is to light the shamash (with a match), leave the shamash in its
holder, make the brachot, then light another match from the shamash and use
that match to light the other lights.

I have absolutely no authority for this - it just seems like a practical
way to get round the problem of oil spillage, whilst still using the
shamash to "service" the other lights.

Chanuka sameach

Jonny
Season's Greetings. This year, instead of sending Christmas cards, we are
making a donation to Teenage Cancer Trust , the charity the firm has
supported throughout 2009. 
Save paper ..... think before you print.

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> R' MB
> 
> RnCL already expressed her belief that "bishul" here isn't really
> cooking, it's derekh bishul as defined by a shiur that was halakhah
> leMoshe miSinai.

Tangentially, there is an opinion (Shitas HoRashbo) where it can be
extrapolated that for the purposes of Bishul after Bishul, microwave based
cooking isn't considered bishul as it doesn't involve fire and so a potato
kigel heated up the first time in this way may not be considered
halachically d'orayso mevushal and one couldn't reheat it in a permitted
way on shabbos. From what I recall the Rambam looks at the result, and the
Rashbo needs it to be through fire for it to be bishul d'orayso. I could be
wrong, of course :-)


> Thus, we're not supposed to be dealing with cooking,
> but with something defined ritually.


Yes. Bishul :-)

R' Steven Scher asked"
> Is it permissible to be an anarchist or a libertarian?

As I understand it, "libertarian" encompasses quite a wide range of views, so I'll restrict my comments to what I think the Torah thinks of anarchy.

One of the seven laws of Noach is to set up a system of courts to enforce
justice. Our 613 laws include laws about which crimes get what punishments,
and how the courts should work. How could one even begin to think that this
is consistent with anarchy?

I must be misunderstanding something.

Akiva Miller

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From: Steven J Scher _sjscher@eiu.edu_ (mailto:sjsc...@eiu.edu) 


>> Is it permissible to be an anarchist 
or a libertarian?  <<

Steven J.  Scher                    

 
>>>>>>
Being an anarchist would not be compatible with what the Torah seems to  
consider the primary purpose of government -- maintaining order.  It says  in 
Pirkei Avos, "Pray for the welfare of the government, because without it,  
people would swallow each other alive."    The absolute  must-haves of a 
government are a military defense force to protect the country  from external 
enemies, and a police force, to protect people from each  other.  The 
government also has to provide a basic infrastructure, like  roads and water.  There 
also has to be some kind of taxing arm to raise the  funds to pay for the 
necessary functions.  All other functions are  doubtful, of dubious 
legitimacy and questionable utility.  There is  almost nothing the government can do 
that cannot better be done by the private  sector or by people acting on 
their own behalf.  Also, smaller and more  local units of government are more 
effective and less tyrannical than powerful,  distant, centralized units of 
government.
 
That being said, there is nothing in halacha that either requires or  
forbids Jews to belong to any particular political party in a democracy.
 
Libertarians are not consistent in what they believe and are not all the  
same.  To the extent that they tend to believe that the government should  
mostly leave people alone, that attitude is neither required nor forbidden by  
the Torah.    
 
I myself am a classical, 19th century liberal -- today known as a  
conservative, in American terms, but nothing like a European ("bring back the  
monarchy") right-wing kind of conservative.   Does the Torah require  us to be 
classical liberals a/k/a conservatives?  Yes, but only in the  sense that the 
Torah presupposes a Jewish people who are wise and  intelligent.  However, 
it is not, strictly speaking, assur to be  stupid.
 

--Toby  Katz
==========

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*From:* "Simi Peters" <famil...@actcom.net.il>
*Date:* Wed, 16 Dec 2009 00:46:58 +0200
*Subject:* [Avodah] generation lists 
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=G#GENERATION%20LISTS
>

<i>Does anyone know of an accessible, complete list of the generations of the
Tanaim and Amoraim?</i>

The Meiri's hakdama to Ahvos.

Zvi Lampel 

 

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RSP asked:
> Does anyone know of an accessible, complete list of the generations of the
Tanaim and Amoraim?

Why not try the Introduction of the Rambam to the Mishne Torah? He seems to
have a long list.

You can see it with a tranaltion at http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/p0000.htm

- Danny
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From: "Simi Peters" _famil...@actcom.net.il_ 
(mailto:famil...@actcom.net.il) 

>>  Does anyone know of an accessible, complete list of the generations of 
the  Tanaim and Amoraim?  It could be part of a book, a separate book, a  
pamphlet, article, or whatever (including an online resource).  It can be  in 
English or Hebrew--either is fine.  The main thing is that it be  complete 
(or as complete as possible) and (preferably) that it should be fairly  easy 
to locate a particular name on the list.<<


Kol  tuv,
Simi Peters

 
>>>>>
There are good charts of the Tanna'im and Amora'im and information about  
the successive generations in R' Zechariah Fendel's book, *LEGACY OF  SINAI:  
A History of Torah Transmission, with World Backgrounds, from  creation 
through the close of Geonic era*
 
The book was published in New York in 1981 by The Rabbi Jacob Joseph  
School Press.  There is an address, but I don't know if it's still  good:  68-61 
Selfridge Street, Forest Hills NY,  11375 and a phone  number, (212) 
261-6076.  If that number is still good it might have a  different area code, 718.  
I don't remember when they gave Queens and  Brooklyn the 718 area code.
 
If the book is out of print it might be halachically permissible and  
technically feasible for me to copy and fax the charts to you.
 

--Toby  Katz
==========

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RMB writes:

> I also do not feel I got a satisfactory answer to my original
> questions:
> 1- Which BD had the wherewithall to retire a mitzvah derabbanan? After
> all, the dinim of ner chanukah appear in a codicil to Megilas Taanis
> written before the mishnah -- thus the mitzvah dates back to Chanukah
> I. Retiring Chanukah I would mean having a beis din capable of taking a
> mitzvah off the books. Possible, but unlikely, since it would mean a
> post-churban beis din (post BH and BS and their machloqes about how
> many neiros to light) that was gadol mimenu bechokhmah uveminyan from a
beis
> din from the days of the first zug.

That kasha is not difficult to answer according to RRW's theory.  Because it
is pretty close explicit in Rosh Hashana 18b what the procedure was.  The
discussion in Rosh Hashana there is whether Megillas Ta'anis has been
mevatelled or not.  And one of the proofs brought is from a ma'aseh in Lod
where they declared a fast on Channukah - which means that at least the
rabbonim in Lod thought it was mevatelled, along with the rest of Megillas
Ta'anis.  Now it is also true that R' Eliezer and R' Yehoshua made a point
of travelling to Lod and of getting their hair cut and bathing, and then
telling the people that they needed to fast because they had declared a fast
on Channukah - but what this indicates is that there was a serious machlokus
that actually played itself out in practice at one point.

Now what is also interesting is the follow on discussion - because Rav Yosef
then says that Channukah is different (ie even if you abolish the rest of
Megillas Ta'anis you shouldn't abolish Channukah) because "d'ikar mitzvah"
And Abaye then responds - so, nullify it and its mitzvah (ie if you are
abolishing Megillas Ta'anis, the fact that there is a mitzvah that comes
along with it doesn't matter, the mitzvah should go too).  And Rav Yosef
seems to accept Abaye's reasoning, because he then gives another reason -
shani channukah d'mefursam nisa!.

So - the answers according to your questions would seem to be reasonably
clear.  The same power that it was concluded abolished Megillas Ta'anis is
the power that should have, absence persumei nisa, allowed them to abolish
Channukah, and in fact there were rabbonim in Lod at the time of Rabbi
Eliezer and Rabbi Yehoshua who thought that Channukah was indeed abolished
and acted on it.  And the fact that there is a mitzvah associated
(presumably the mitzvah to light candles) would not in and of itself have
been enough to save it - but you are right, the fundamental source of that
mitzvah would seem to be Megillas Ta'anis, so that if Megillas Ta'anis in
abolished in its entirety, that would include abolishing the mitzvah too,
despite the machlokus between Beis Hillel and Beis Shammai (and presumably
that is what happened in Lod, I assume they can't have been lighting candles
and fasting - certainly that would seem to be common ground between Rav
Yosef and Abaye).  And the conclusion of this little sugya would seem to
suggest that the reason why Channukah was not indeed abolished (as is then
concluded at the real end of the discussion on Rosh Hashana 19b) was because
of pirsumei nisa.  Ie R' Eliezer and R' Yehoshua prevailed, but their reason
(as provided by the gemora) is arguably a "new reason" which would, it seems
to me, allow RRW to call it a kind of Channukah II, because the reasons that
Channukah was initially established would not have been enough.

And it is interesting to note the Rashi there on pesumei nisa - he says
"kvar hu galui l'chol yisroel al yadei shenahagu bo hamitzvos v'heziku bo
kshel torah v'lo nachon l'batlo". 

Isn't that pretty much what RRW is saying?

> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha

Regards

Chana

R' Alan Rubin wrote:
> I have been using oil for the shammas as well. It can be
> a bit tricky lighting with a shammas and I usually end 
> up spilling some oil. What does the panel think is
> preferable: ...

I encountered the same problems when I began to use oil neros.

One year, my procedure was to light the shammas, and then I lifted that
wick out of its lamp (with a tweezers or pliers), and lit the other neros
with the burning wick. But even though there was no spilling, there was
still some dripping, and it made quite a mess.

Since then, my procedure is much simpler: I light the shammas, and then I
light a match from the shammas and use *it* to light the neros. If the
match goes out, I light another match from the shammas, and continue
lighting the neros.

The function of the shammas is to be an extra light because of the problem
of the issur against getting hana'ah from the Neros Chanuka. I concede that
the Rama (673:1) does mention "the shammas with which he lights the neros",
but my feeling is that he merely identifying the shammas, and is not really
telling us that we *must* use the shammas for that purpose. If someone
would insist that the Rama IS telling us to actually use the shammas for
lighting the neros, I would respond that I *am* doing that -- but I'm doing
it indirectly.

Akiva Miller

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From: Alan Rubin _a...@rubin.org.uk_ (mailto:a...@rubin.org.uk) 

As far as I recall,  ever since I started using oil for the menorah 
(probably the last 25 years)  I have been using oil for the shammas as 
well. It can be a bit tricky  lighting with a shammas and I usually end 
up spilling some  oil.....


Alan Rubin

 
 
 
>>>>>
 
The purpose of the shamash is to provide light so that you don't end up  
inadvertently using the light of the Chanukah flames for your personal  use.  
The menorah flames are just for pirsuma nisa and nothing  else -- but if you 
want to see anything in the room or read by the light of the  menorah (like 
read Maoz Tzur in the siddur, for example, by the light of the  menorah) 
you must have a shamash.  You don't have to light the  menorah/mitzva lights 
with the shamash.
 
Therefore what  you use to light the flames is irrelevant.  You  use what 
is convenient, that's all -- a match, a candle, a cigarette lighter,  
whatever you want.  
 
 
 

--Toby  Katz
==========

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Rn Katz's reply, below, might express the halacha but I was not asking
what the strict halacha is. If the Ashkenazi minhag is to use the
shammas to light the menorah then perhaps there is some importance in
sticking with that minhag.

On 12/16/09, T6...@aol.com <T6...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> From: Alan Rubin a...@rubin.org.uk
>
> As far as I recall, ever since I started using oil for the menorah
> (probably the last 25 years) I have been using oil for the shammas as
> well. It can be a bit tricky lighting with a shammas and I usually end
> up spilling some oil.....
>
>
>
> The purpose of the shamash is to provide light so that you don't end up
> inadvertently using the light of the Chanukah flames for your personal use.
> The menorah flames are just for pirsuma nisa and nothing else -- but if you
> want to see anything in the room or read by the light of the menorah (like
> read Maoz Tzur in the siddur, for example, by the light of the menorah) you
> must have a shamash.  You don't have to light the menorah/mitzva lights with
> the shamash.
>
> Therefore what  you use to light the flames is irrelevant.  You use what is
> convenient, that's all -- a match, a candle, a cigarette lighter, whatever
> you want.

Isn't this somewhat intellectually dishonest? Is mouthwash food? Is it
edible? Since when do we worry about ingredients in inedible products? As
I've said before Rav Moshe permits glycerine in pleasant tasting medicine,
which is made to be consumed. Mouthwash is certainly not pleasant tasting
and is made to be spat out. He doesn't even mention it as an option.

Martin Brody

"R. Y. Levine wrote:

Some time ago I had a long back and forth via email with

>Rabbi Moishe Dovid Lebovits
>Author of Halachically Speaking
>Rabbinical Administrator - KOF-K Kosher Supervision
>Recorder of KOF- K policy

It was about the kashrus of mouthwash, particularly Scope and Listerine. In
one of the issues of Halachically Speaking he had written essentially one
should use only use mouthwash that has supervision, because of the glycerin
in the "regular" mouthwashes. This he based on the psak of Rav Belsky.

I wrote to him that Listerine has no glycerin in it. I also told him that I
had contacted Scope, and they told me that the glycerin they use is of
animal origin. Eventually he wrote back the following.

"After giving some thought to our conversation today I want to add the
following:
Although the non-Jew said they use vegetable ingredients there is no one
making sure this is always done and non-vegetable glycerin is cheaper than
vegetable. therefore, if they are not a kosher company there is no reason
why they should use vegetable glycerin. Why are we believing a non-Jew to
tell us about kosher. The one answering the phone has limited knowledge
regarding the items in a product. Even if it is made on the same equipment
as animal glycerin we do not rely on bitul. My opinion still stands that I
have no way to guarantee that only vegetable glycerin is ALWAYS used."
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At 12:35 AM 12/16/2009, martin brody wrote:
>Isn't this somewhat intellectually dishonest? Is mouthwash food? Is 
>it edible? Since when do we worry about ingredients in inedible 
>products? As I've said before Rav Moshe permits glycerine in 
>pleasant tasting medicine, which is made to be consumed. Mouthwash 
>is certainly not pleasant tasting and is made to be spat out. He 
>doesn't even mention it as an option.
>
>Martin Brody

Mouthwash is indeed edible (drinkable). I often swallow it after 
swishing it around in my mouth when I am pressed for time or do not 
want to bother spitting it into the sink and then rinsing the sink.

Try it and you will see that one can indeed drink it without harmful 
side affects. Furthermore, it contains alcohol, so this may add to 
your experience! >:-}

YL
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> "Try it and you will see that one can indeed drink it without harmful side
> affects. Furthermore, it contains alcohol, so this may add to your
> experience! >:-}
>
> YL"
>
> Do you make a bracha? A bracha achrona too? Of course not.You do not drink
it as food and it is not why it was made and besides I'm pretty certain a
dog wouldn't drink it. But what I was trying to say was the author of the
comment from Kaf K is in the business of selling supervision and did not
mention that as medicine, glycerine may not be a problem. That is
intellectual dishonesty.
And to add to the mix, even if glycerine is from an animal source, it's
composition has changed enough to be considered inedible, even more so than
gelatin. There's enough suffeiks around even when in an edible product.



Martin Brody
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Isaac Balbin
> Tangentially, there is an opinion (Shitas HoRashbo) where it can be
> extrapolated that for the purposes of Bishul after Bishul, microwave
> based cooking isn't considered bishul as it doesn't involve fire and so
> a potato kigel heated up the first time in this way may not be considered
> halachically d'orayso mevushal and one couldn't reheat it in a permitted way
> on shabbos. From what I recall the Rambam looks at the result, and the Rashbo
> needs it to be through fire for it to be bishul d'orayso. I could be wrong,
> of course :-)?

I'm not familiar with this Rashba but I do concur that this how inderstand
the Rambam in Hil. Shabbos 9:6 "klalo shell davar..."

FWIW RMF/IM asserts that microwaves are derech bishul based off of a Rashi
in Mas. Shabbos that says Hammah is NOT derech bishul.

[I'm sure RDE can provide the citation in full. <Smile>]


Further tangentially, I have argued with "liberals" who claimed that bishul
via electricity is not real bishul. One issue is that it would create a
michshol that anything cooked electically could not be re-heated w/o chancing
a d'oraisso. Taken a step further, any cooked food would be a s'feiq mevushal-
lest it was first only cooked electrically.

Also it would preclude broiling by means of electicity EG for livers.

Gutn Hanukkah
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> One of the seven laws of Noach is to set up a system of courts to enforce
> justice. Our 613 laws include laws about which crimes get what punishments,
> and how the courts should work. How could one even begin to think that this
> is consistent with anarchy?

An anarchy would still have courts, deriving their authority either
from the mutual consent of the parties, or from the delegated right of a
victim to self-defense. EY had courts long before it had a government.
"Biymei shfot hashoftim."

T6...@aol.com wrote:
> Being an anarchist would not be compatible with what the Torah seems to 
> consider the primary purpose of government -- maintaining order.  It 
> says in Pirkei Avos, "Pray for the welfare of the government, because 
> without it, people would swallow each other alive."

That is a question of metzius; just because R Chanina Sgan Hakohanim
believed it doesn't mean it's true.  Anarchists believe that it isn't
true.  Also, Pirkei Avos is "milsa dachasidusa", not halacha.


> The absolute 
> must-haves of a government are a military defense force to protect the 
> country from external enemies, and a police force, to protect people 
> from each other.  The government also has to provide a basic 
> infrastructure, like roads and water.  There also has to be some kind of 
> taxing arm to raise the funds to pay for the necessary functions.

There is no need for government to provide roads or water; both can and
have been provided by private people, where government has not prevented
them, either directly or by driving them out of business.  It may also be
possible to finance a truly minimal government without a taxing arm, or
even without anything we would recognise as taxes at all.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher


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