Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 257

Fri, 18 Dec 2009

• 1. Re: Microwaves, etc. (was Dishwashers 1) (Isaac Balbin)
• 2. Re: How to light the Menorah (Michael Poppers)
• 3. Re: How to light the Menorah (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Legacy of Sinai (Gershon Dubin)
• 5. Admin: Avodah Digest v26n256 (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Billions and Millions (Micha Berger)
• 7. Repeating Shemoneh Esrei (Micha Berger)
• 8. Minhag Avos and Minhag haMakom (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Billions and Millions (David Riceman)
• 10. Re: How to light the Menorah (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 11. Re: Microwaves, etc. (was Dishwashers 1) (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 12. Re: tzedaka priority (Liron Kopinsky)
• 13. Re: tzedaka priority (Zev Sero)
• 14. Assur to be Stupid (Richard Wolberg)
• 15. Re: anarchy/libertarianism (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 16. Re: tzedaka priority (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: tzedaka priority (Micha Berger)
• 18. Re: tzedaka priority (Ben Waxman)
• 19. Re: tzedaka priority (Micha Berger)

> 
> Message: 15
> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 03:11:21 +0000
> From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
>> 
> 
> I'm not familiar with this Rashba but I do concur that this how inderstand
> the Rambam in Hil. Shabbos 9:6 "klalo shell davar..."
> 
> FWIW RMF/IM asserts that microwaves are derech bishul based off of a Rashi
> in Mas. Shabbos that says Hammah is NOT derech bishul.
> 
> [I'm sure RDE can provide the citation in full. <Smile>]

OH 3:52 for the Igros Moshe but note that R' Shlomo Zalman learns this Rashi in a different way in Minchas Shlomo 12, footnote 4.

> Further tangentially, I have argued with "liberals" who claimed that bishul
> via electricity is not real bishul. One issue is that it would create a
> michshol that anything cooked electically could not be re-heated w/o chancing
> a d'oraisso.

Correct, and if someone is worried about that interpretation of the Rashbo
(which I will find IY"H) they might do their first bishul on Shabbos in a
more traditional fashion!

> Taken a step further, any cooked food would be a s'feiq mevushal-
> lest it was first only cooked electrically.
> 
> Also it would preclude broiling by means of electicity EG for livers.
Pardon my ignorance. Why is that? Isn't the issue with kashering livers to
facilitate the blood drainage in the best way so that in the end it no
longer is deep brown internally etc If we had some laser shock machine
which did a bombardment of liver to the extent that it achieved the same as
regular broiling (or better) would that render the liver not yet koshered?

In Avodah Digest V26#254, RAR asked:
> What does the panel think is preferable:

1. using a candle as the shammas

2. switching to the sefardi minhag of using another candle to light both
the main lights and the shammas <
and, in the subsequent digest, he wrote:
> ...I was not asking
what the strict halacha is. If the Ashkenazi minhag is to use the
shammas to light the menorah then perhaps there is some importance in
sticking with that minhag. <
In older chanukiyos, the shamash was a separate k'li.  To me, trying to
force an oil shammash to light the neiros when it's no longer separate
seems, literally, dachuq.

I (and my kids) use a candle (handed from person to person) to light the
neir(os) and then the shammash.  Their chanukiyos use candles, mine (thanks
to a gift many years ago from my bayis :)) uses oil.  I believe that is
RAR's option#2, but I had no idea that this way of doing things was
"sefardi."  Before I was married, my father a'h' and I used chanukiyos with
candles, and each of us used the shammash candle to light the other
neir(os).  I believe that is akin to RAR's option#1 even though the
shammash is using the same fuel as the neir(os).  I don't believe that
hataras n'darim is required to switch between options :).

Gut Chodesh & Chanukah and a guten Shabbes from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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Hilchos Chanukah  
 
185. The reason that some are not makpid to light a Shamesh is because if
there is another ner on in the room to use for light, then it is not
absolutely necessary to have a Shamesh. Nowadays that we have electric
lights on in the room; according to R' Chaim Kanievsky one should still
light a Shamesh; according to R' Shloma Zalmen Auerbach it is not
necessary. 
Shulchan Aruch w/Mishna Brurah 673:1, Yimei Hallel V'hodoah 25:11, Sefer Birchas Moshe

from dailyhalacha


kt
joel rich
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Well, it appears I figured out how to get bilingual support in the
digest... it's by switching the entire list over to Hebrew mode! You
saw the most recent digest with the Hebrew header. I would also have
to switch over moderation software and the archiver (not done yet, so
I just switched back before v26n257 comes out) to pase Hebrew from the
corse server as well. It may take me a little while to get that issue
onto the web.

But in any case, if you think it's worth the effort, please let me know
at <mi...@aishdas.org>. Personally, I think it is.

Further conversation, if you want to discuss the change among the
membership rather than just send me a vote, ought to be on Areivim.

And yes, I noticed that many email readers won't handle a line that starts
out in Hebrew but ends in English correctly. (There is an example at the
first line of the digest.) Compared to not doing Hebrew at all, I think
it's a livable problem. Since I can't edit the actual digest producing
software, nor force posters' email clients to send the right thing, it's
a "given".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:09:26AM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
: How about hearkening back to your childhood: "hundreds of favors, 
: thousands of favors, millions and billions and trillions of favors" (the 
: original, for those who were differently educated, reads "cats" instead 
: of "favors").

The problem AIUI, was understanding why domeone would say the parallel
to "billions and millions and thousands". Elef alfei alafim is a
billion. Rivei revados is 1/10 that, 100mm. "1000, 1bn, 100mm times..."
sounds weird. As I wrote, I personally think that since "pe'amim"
only appears once, it's not a keifel lashon, but it's all one number,
just like "one hundred thousand" is 100*1000 and in long scale (most of
Europe) "one thousand million" is not one billion, but a number in its
own right. (The US and England at this point only use short scale, where
the word "billion" is defined such that they are equal. In long scale, one
billion is one million million, one trillion is a million billion, etc...)

While detouring into number system, but yet still wanting to stay
somewhere on topic... Ge'ez (Ethiopic, a south semitic language, Hebrew
is NW semitic) has number symbols for 0-9, by 10s for 10-100 and a symbol
for revavah. In comparison, Hebrew has elef between me'ah and revavah,
but no distinct "digit" symbols beyond 900 (if you use sofios for 500-900,
which is probably quite late anyway).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The mind is a wonderful organ
mi...@aishdas.org        for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org   the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

A co worker just asked me this she'eilah...

Say someone missed tal umatar and has to repeat Shemoneh Esrei. Now in
his repetition, he forgot Yaaleh veYavo. So the first SE contained
Yaaleh veYavo, the second contained TU, but neither contained both.
Does he have to repeat SE a third time?

IOW, why do we repeat?

1- Is it that these things have to be said, and since that requires an SE,
we repeat the whole SE?
In which case, everything necessary was already said, so there is no
need for the third repetition.

2- Or is it a pesul in the SE not to say everything coined for that
tefillah?
In which case, he has yet to say a complete SE, and needs to try yet
again.

The argument for #2 is that it appears to be what Chazal are literally
saying: "ke'ilu lo hispallel". However, if it really was ke'ilu, then if
the zeman passed there would be a tashlumim, and there isn't.

Yaaleh veYavo isn't likely to be part of the original divrei soferim of
davening 3 times a day (or 4 or 5 on appropriate days). Uneshalmah parim
sefaseinu ties the taqanah to churban bayis, the only possible one of
which would be bayis rishon. At that point, Retzei might have existed
-- some form of it was said daily by the kohanim during bayis sheini,
although "ve'ishei Yisrael usefilasam teqabeil beratzon" sounds like it
was coined at a time when qorbanos were being brought. But in general,
the only thing we AKhG could have coined were the chasimos.

So Yaaleh veYavo isn't part of that taqanah.

Meaning that perhaps ke'ilu lo hispallel is on the matbei'ah tefillah /
derabbanan level, not on the stop to pray 3 times a day divrei soferim
level. Which is then too weak (a 2nd "perhaps") to require tashlumim. And
thus perhaps ke'ilu lo hispallel does literally mean a pesul in his
tefillah -- but not require tashlumim.

(I intentionally pretended there was no question of Maariv being a reshus,
since that would just complicate the language beyond "3 times a day"
and be a distraction.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
mi...@aishdas.org        exactly the right measure of himself,  and
http://www.aishdas.org   holds a just balance between what he can
Fax: (270) 514-1507      acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham

RGS blogs on one of our recurring topics.

See "Keeping your customs"
<http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2009/12/keeping-your-customs.html>:
> In the world of increased mobility in which we live, issues of custom
> become more complex than in the past. The Mishnah and Gemara (Pesachim
> 50a-51a) speak about someone who travels from a place that has one
> custom to a place that has another. If he is moving, and not just
> visiting, then he should adopt the custom of the city of his new
> residence.
...
> While this might seem like a new question, it is centuries old. Because
> Jews were expelled from different European countries throughout the ages,
> there were frequent questions about whether those refugees should maintain
> their previous customs or adopt those of their new hometown.

At the end he links to a discussion by RHS about family minhagim at
<http://www.y
utorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/735162/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/%D7%94%D7%A9
%D7%91%D7%A2_%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%91%D7%99%D7%A2>
or <http://bit.ly/582Fqz>.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org        to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org   you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      - George Elliot

Micha Berger wrote:
> The problem AIUI, was understanding why domeone would say the parallel
> to "billions and millions and thousands". Elef alfei alafim is a
> billion. Rivei revados is 1/10 that, 100mm. "1000, 1bn, 100mm times..."
> sounds weird. As I wrote, I personally think that since "pe'amim"
> only appears once, it's not a keifel lashon, but it's all one number,
> just like "one hundred thousand" is 100*1000 and in long scale (most of
> Europe) "one thousand million" is not one billion, but a number in its
> own right.
Whether it's one or two numbers is a machlokes rishonim.  See Mahzor 
Vitri ad. loc. (in the part containing texts - - it's in volume 1 p. 271 
of the new edition).

I prefer translations of prayers which get the "feel" right rather than 
the precise meaning, but of course it depends on the function of the 
translation and on the intended audience.

David Riceman

R' Rich Wolpoe asked:
> Why not just when using an oil lamp for shammos - simply light
> all oil lamps using a plain old paraffin Hanukkah Candle?!

I tried this exact idea once. I found the problem to be that the candle
drips paraffin onto the menorah, especially when the candle is moved, or
when it is held in any position other than totally vertical.

Akiva Miller

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RRW:
>> Also it would preclude broiling by means of electicity EG for livers.

Isaac.Bal...@rmit.edu.au
> Pardon my ignorance. Why is that? Isn't the issue with kashering livers
> to facilitate the blood drainage in the best way so that in the end
> it no longer is deep brown internally etc If we had some laser shock
> machine which did a bombardment of liver to the extent that it achieved
> the same as regular broiling (or better) would that render the liver
> not yet koshered?


Ok I didn't mean "nuking" livers, just using an electric element

Background:
Some Fundamentalists see electricity as "not fire" and therefore not
bishul and therefore no "nura misha'v sha'iv" therefore incapable of
making livers kosher.

Since I'm not a fundamentalist I consider electric cooking bishul mamash
and kosher to kasher livers, too.


Disclaimer:
I do confess the following - when soup needed to be re-heated on shabbos
for a choleh by a non-jew - I preferred using microwave over a real
fire on the premise it might be only be derabbanan. And so I did use
the fundamentalist sheeta as a "snif lehakeil" in a sha'as had'chaq.

Gutn Hodesh-Hanukkah

RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:18 PM, <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org> wrote:

>
> is it acceptable to base  tzedaka decisions  based on hashkafa  --- ie  i
> don't like your stand on a particular issue , therefore i will not  [or no
> longer]  support your mossad?
>
> does the same hold true for individuals  [ ie i only have x dollars for
> hachnasat  kalla; i will choose to not give it to those who i disagree with]
>
> i assume there is no problem with this calculation in the positive
> direction [ helping those i agree with]. but is the negative  valid as well?
>

Is there a difference? Either way you are choosing to give money here and
not there.
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Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
> 
> is it acceptable to base  tzedaka decisions  based on hashkafa  --- ie 
>  i don't like your stand on a particular issue , therefore i will not 
>  [or no longer]  support your mossad?

Why not?  "Ve'ish et kodashav lo yihyu".   A person has no chiyuv to
give to any specific person or organisation.   


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

It should be pointed out that the word "stupid" is being used as "ignorant."
There is a big difference between "ignorant" and "stupid." 
Though the dictionary may not make the distinction, it has been taught that "ignorant" means lack of knowledge of something.
It also means uneducated. So if halacha says you must learn, then it can be assur to be ignorant. 
But even that begs the question. We are all ignorant in some areas.

"Stupid" on the other hand means "lacking common sense" and doing things that are associated with lacking common sense.
If you see a vehicle driving at a high rate of speed and you step out in front of it thinking you will avoid it, then you have done
something very "stupid."
This reminds me of the misuse of the word "dumb." Dumb means unable to speak most typically because of congenital deafness.

All the years I have taught, I have always told my class there is no such thing as a "stupid" question.
The "stupid" thing is not to ask.

May our ignorance decrease and our stupidity overcome by good judgment. 

ri

RZS:
> Yes, I think it's clear that anarchism is incompatible with the Rambam's
> view of mitzvas minuy melech as a requirement and a lechatchila.

"V'chisei David avd'cha m'eira lesochah tachin"

RZS continues:
> Those who regard minuy melech as a bediavad may be seen as anarchists,
> and perhaps they hold like the opinion of R Hillel that "ein lahem
> mashiach leyisrael", but rather that Hashem will redeem and rule us
> Himself.

"Umloch aleinu atah Hashem levadcha.."

G Ch, G Ch
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 02:18:32PM -0800, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: is it acceptable to base  tzedaka decisions  based on hashkafa  --- ie  i 
: don't like your stand on a particular issue , therefore i will not  [or no 
: longer]  support your mossad?

Is this a triage mechanism, or a means of expressing and thus reinforcing
pirud, sin'ah and perhaps is a sort of neqamah?

In the latter case, it may be not only a bad idea on a mussar level,
it could be so to the extent of being assur lehalakhah.

RYBS famously collected from his talmidim for his uncle's mosedos. He
was asked (not often, but since this was over many years, a number of
times) by those close enough to him to have the temerity to ask why he
would collect for an anti-Zionist institution that thinks so little of
their own lifestyle. RYBS argued that he himself lived in Boston and
worked in NY, his uncle is building Judaism in Israel -- which is the
real Zionist? (The previous story is how I recall RARR's telling of it
on a number of his MP3-recorded shiurim.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 02:18:32PM -0800, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: is it acceptable to base  tzedaka decisions  based on hashkafa  --- ie  i 
: don't like your stand on a particular issue , therefore i will not  [or no 
: longer]  support your mossad?

Is this a triage mechanism, or a means of expressing and thus reinforcing
pirud, sin'ah and perhaps is a sort of neqamah?

In the latter case, it may be not only a bad idea on a mussar level,
it could be so to the extent of being assur lehalakhah.

RYBS famously collected from his talmidim for his uncle's mosedos. He
was asked (not often, but since this was over many years, a number of
times) by those close enough to him to have the temerity to ask why he
would collect for an anti-Zionist institution that thinks so little of
their own lifestyle. RYBS argued that he himself lived in Boston and
worked in NY, his uncle is building Judaism in Israel -- which is the
real Zionist? (The previous story is how I recall RARR's telling of it
on a number of his MP3-recorded shiurim.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

If your basic approach is to give to whom you like, maybe you'll be willing to give something small to those with whom you disagree. 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Liron Kopinsky 



  Is there a difference? Either way you are choosing to give money here and not there. 
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On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 07:45:29AM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
: If your basic approach is to give to whom you like, maybe you'll be
: willing to give something small to those with whom you disagree.

Someone suggested in a vaad last night, in a totally unrelated
conversation, that one needs to give something small to those whom
they don't yet like.

Deeds aren't only expressions of feelings, they are also causes of them.

:-)BBii!
-Micha


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