Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 66

Mon, 08 Mar 2010

• 1. Re: The Two Tablets (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: The Two Tablets (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: The Two Tablets (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: The Two Tablets (Zev Sero)
• 5. Bein Adam L'Makom versus Bein Adam L'Chaveiro (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Re: RSRH on the Agel and What We See Today (Prof. Levine)
• 7. bugs in fish (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: bugs in fish (Prof. Levine)
• 9. timtum halev (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Who First Said It (Joseph C. Kaplan)
• 11. Re: Who First Said it? (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: The Two Tablets (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: The Two Tablets (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: timtum halev (Rich, Joel)
• 15. Re: Who First Said It? 5 (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 16. Re: Who First Said it? (Samuel Svarc)
• 17. Re: timtum halev (Micha Berger)
• 18. Re: Who First Said it? (Samuel Svarc)

On Sun, Mar 07, 2010 at 11:09:44PM -0500, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: Compared to non-Jews, Jews are exemplary in their devotion to their  
: fellow-man and especially to their fellow Jews.  And compared to R and C,  
: Orthodox Jews have every reason to feel justifiably proud of our  incredible  
: chessed and tzedaka institutions, right across the  spectrum.  

Yes we do, still, the following is not true:
: It is only when compared to our own ideals of perfection that we  fall 
: short.  

You are confusing our wonderful communal infrastructure, which is built
on chessed with internalizing the notion of ethical behavior. You're
repeating the error of the mafioso who uses is ill-gotten gains to better
his church and community.

Let's just sum up some of the ethical highlights of the past year:
    - Spinka
    - The spate of child abuse cases that forced Dov Hikind to get NY
      prosecution more involed in the Brooklyn community. (The "Agudah:
      Stop Protecting Pedophiles" rally outside their May 15th dinner.)
    - The man who sold Bobov shaatnez for their tallisos
    - Joseph Shereshevsky, and the WestTrust Capital ponzi. (And whomever
      O was in on Madoff's bigger pyramid.)
    - All the rabbanim Dwek brought down
    - Tropper
    - The defining silence about Tropper.
    - Elon
    - Balkany's attempted extortion from SAC Capital (a hedge fund)
    etc...

Are you going to assert a surety that our 1040s (US tax form) next month
are consistently more honest than those you're comparing us to? Are we
machmirim in lifnei iveir, or do we let our counterparty make a bad deal?

That's the difference between producing baalei chessed who embody
ehrlachkeit, and people who objectively know that chessed is a mitzvah
(and thus others are tefillin and esrogim -- cheftzos shel mitzvah). We
have a lot both, but if we were better at producing true baalei chessed we
wouldn't have a tail of the bell curve with so many horrible things on it.

But moving on from chessed vs ethics to your statement about chessed
in particular in various Jewish communities:

In the non-O community, the energy we invest in chessed within our
eiruvim tends to become (the misnamed) Tikkun Olam in theirs. There is
a lot of Chessed going on among our non-O brothers -- who have been
at the forefront of eliminating suffering on issues from Baifra to
Haiti. Less is provided for other Jews, but a disportionate amount of
world aid is coming fro them. Yes, it shows a lack aniyei irkha qodmin,
etc... but even the more assimilated are benei Avraham -- bayshanim,
rachmanim vegomelei chassadim.

E.g. The Union for Reform Judaism runs a campaign to supply 50,000
insecticide treated bed nets to families in subsaharan Africa
as a cheap but effective way to stop malaria. ($10 / family!)
http://www.urj.org/nets

...
: I have myself been the victim of rudeness on the part of frum Jews in  
: Brooklyn and Yerushalayim so I know that we have people in our midst who  could 
: stand to  have their rough edges polished.  Nevertheless we have  so much to 
: be proud of.  We need to stress what is positive about  our community, when 
: there is so much more light than darkness. 

And yet we also have to show people how to pick up torches, and spread the
light. It's one thing to remind people the cup is half full, it's another
to pretend that the news of the past year doesn't point to a crisis.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is a glorious thing to be indifferent to
mi...@aishdas.org        suffering, but only to one's own suffering.
http://www.aishdas.org                 -Robert Lynd, writer (1879-1949)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Back to the luchos themselves...

I once repeated here (but can not find it to provide a sheim omero)
an acharon's take on the appearance of the luchos.

The first luach, that with the 5 mitzvos BALM, had far more words on
it than the second luach and its list of 5 mitzvos BALC. Assuming each
text was written to fill the space, this means that the letters on the
second luach were far larger and could be read from a further disance
than those on the first.

So, someone approaching the luchos would first see "Lo Sirtzakh, Lo
Sin'af..." as headlines, and only encounter the mitzvos BALM as details
after that first impression was made.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
mi...@aishdas.org        It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
http://www.aishdas.org   and helps us cope with adversity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507         - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"

I have myself been the victim of rudeness on the part of frum Jews in
Brooklyn and Yerushalayim so I know that we have people in our midst who
could stand to	have their rough edges polished.  Nevertheless we have so
much to be proud of.  We need to stress what is positive about our
community, when there is so much more light than darkness.

--Toby Katz
==========

Interesting debate between 2 schools of mussar-gadlut haadam and shiflut haadam.
KT
Joel. Rich


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Micha Berger wrote:

> The first luach, that with the 5 mitzvos BALM, had far more words on
> it than the second luach and its list of 5 mitzvos BALC. Assuming each
> text was written to fill the space, this means that the letters on the
> second luach were far larger and could be read from a further disance
> than those on the first.

Why would we make that assumption?  Surely it's more straightforward
to assume the writing was the same size throughout.  (This reminds me
of the question that came up recently on another list, about the minhag
some have of writing the ten sons of Haman on a page of their own.
If the rest of that megillah has more than 11 lines per page, then
the sofer must either use super-large letters or leave lots of space.
The problem with using large letters is that we have a mesorah of which
letters should be big or small, and these pesukim are meant to be neither.)

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

There is no question that we see much Chesed being done by many 
wonderful organizations. However, IMO there is a failing by far too 
many on an individual level. Let me give you one example that has 
become a pet peeve. And, yes, I know that one anecdote proves nothing.

There is a shortcut on my block to a Shteibel that is located on the 
block behind my house.  There is also a fire hydrant not far from my 
house. Many, and I repeat many, is the time that I have seen people 
park at the hydrant so that they can go through the shortcut to daven.

At times I have spoken to people whom I see parking at the hydrant 
pointing out that it is against the law to park at a hydrant and that 
their davening might well be a mitzvah haba b'aveira.  Some then move 
their car. But many do not. They simply ignore me, park and go 
daven.  Some even have the chutzpah to reply, "I don't see any 
problem parking here so that I can daven."

BTW, this fire hydrant has been used by the fire department more than 
once, since I have been living on this block. Indeed, sadly it was 
used right after licht bentching this past Friday.  See 
http://tinyurl.com/yb8a5xx

YL

At 09:17 PM 3/7/2010, T6...@aol.com wrote:
>I haven't been following the bugs-in-fish issue closely, but where 
>do you stand on that?
>
>
>--Toby Katz
>==========

Personally, I am following Rav Yisroel Belsky's Psak (which is, of 
course, the position of the OU).

YL


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<<I haven't been following the bugs-in-fish issue closely, but where do you
stand on that?>>

Personally I am disturbed about a number of issues that haven't changed
physically in many years and nevertheless all of sudden poskim come
out with issurim.

To the best of my knowledge there has been no major changes in the way fish live
and are infested by worms in the recent past (lets ignore any changes
from the days
of chazal as nishtanu hateva). Yet all of some some poskim decide many
fish especially
from the wild are prohibited when they have been used for years.
There was an uproar a few years ago about cows in Israel and their
being different from
"standard cows". The same was with regard to the hair from India which
was used for
many years and there is no reason to think that the Indians have changed their
attitude towards the hair cutting.
There are other such cases which I refrain from discussing to limit the post.

I just find a general attitude where individuals all of a sudden
"discover" that there
is a problem with an act that has been accepted by the Jewish
community for years.
Then various poskim decide that what we have been doing is really wrong.

BTW I haven'y seen anyone deal with the issue of how could gedolim from previous
generations eat treif fish is we have the rule that G-d watches over the donkey
of R. Pinchas ben Yair and so certainly over the tzaddikim.


-- 
Eli Turkel

At 06:21 AM 3/8/2010, Eli Turkel wrote:
>BTW I haven'y seen anyone deal with the issue of how could gedolim 
>from previous
>generations eat treif fish is we have the rule that G-d watches over 
>the donkey
>of R. Pinchas ben Yair and so certainly over the tzaddikim.


Rabbi Yisroel Belsky feels has pointed out the same thing. He refuses 
to believe that the gedolim from previous generations ate treif fish.

I sent the following out on 1/26/10.

Given this [the claims by some that there are now bugs in our fish], 
I contacted the OU to get some information about this issue.  I have 
learned the following:

Rav Yisroel Belsky has issued a psak for the OU, stating that there 
is no need to check for worms and no prohibition of the worms found 
in wild salmon and other fish, in accordance with Shulchan Aruch  Y"D 
84:16. According to this psak, he states that the Shulchan Aruch does 
not limit the permissibility of Tolayim found in the flesh of fish to 
any species of tolaas. The halacha states that the tolaas found in 
the flesh of the fish is mutar, and there is no reason to believe 
present day Tolayim are any different from those found in the past.

There is an audio presentation made by Rav Belsky last year 
at  http://www.ouradio.org/index.php/ouradio/comment/9742/ In it he 
notes that the SA did not require one to be an expert in the Tolayim 
found in the fish flesh to know how they got into the flesh, either 
from the viscera [The internal organs of the body, specifically those 
within the chest (as the 
<http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3668>heart or 
<http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=4209>lungs) 
or 
<http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=2081>abdomen 
(as the 
<http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=4179>liver, 
<http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=4743>pancreas 
or intestines).] or from some other source. If the tolaas clearly 
came from the viscera after death,  the tolaas would indeed be forbidden.

He also said that the concern that the Tolayim found in the flesh of 
fish may have migrated from the viscera after the death of the fish 
and would be forbidden is not based on any scientific research. Based 
on his own inquiries of experts in the field, Rav Belsky feels that, 
in fact,  the opposite is true, and that the Tolayim in question are 
to be found in the flesh of the fish while it was 
alive.  Furthermore, Rav Belsky said  that the size of the tolaas 
when it is swallowed by the fish is not relevant.

Yitzchok Levine



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In a shiur I attend we recently had a debate whther the issue of
timtum halev from non-kosher food has any halachic implications.

If some treif substance is batel is there any reason not to eat
the combination because it contains some treif substance which
will cause timtum halev. How because it is allowed to be eaten
does it remove timtum halev (For solif pieces some poskim say one
piece should be thrown out - however, statistically this doesnt help
if it happens a few times most likely a treif piece was eaten)

A similar case happens whenever there is a safek about some piece
and the halacha paskens that one can eat it. Is there some reason
to avoid it because of timtum halev?

kol tuv

-- 
Eli Turkel

"I was delighted to read that R' Penkower read twice despite 
his indisputable proofs that zeikher is correct."

I'm sorry to report that this is not correct.  Prof. Penkower (my
brother-in-law) believes that it should be read only once and has convinced
his shul to do that.  He has told me that he is disappointed that other
shuls do not do so, even when the ba'alei kriah and other experts in those
shuls recognize that there is only one proper way to read the word.   

Joseph Kaplan
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Elazar M. Teitz wrote:
> <<The story about "cutting off  the roots of his soul" -- that the 
> Gra would have converted to Christianity if not for the Ba'al HaTanya is 
> scurrilous nonsense.  Where do you get this stuff?>>
> 
> <Start with Likutei Dibburim vol 2 p 516, Reshimas Hayomon p 177, >
> 
>      It would seem that if they lacked the power but thought they had 
> it, then it is tipshus.  If they did have it and would have used it, or 
> even contemplated using it, then it would be rishus of the highest 
> order.  To be dan l'chaf z'chus, I vote for the former.

They certainly had the power, and al pi din they had every right to do
it, since he had issued a false cherem against them.  But the AR indeed
opposed it because of the chilul hashem it would create, and refused to
participate even at the risk of serious harm to his children.  The story
with R Moshe was the result of the curse R Shlomo Karliner gave him.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 11:00:03AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: Why would we make that assumption?  Surely it's more straightforward
: to assume the writing was the same size throughout...

I didn't find my post, but I found R' David Lapin (who I have worked
with, so he was likely my source the first time around) cites the Mabit.
I found it in Beis E-lokim Shaar haYesodos ch. 12. He assumes "shelo
yesha'er maqom panui". See the text at
<http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14113&;st=&pgnum=107>.

: of the question that came up recently on another list, about the minhag
: some have of writing the ten sons of Haman on a page of their own.
: If the rest of that megillah has more than 11 lines per page, then
: the sofer must either use super-large letters or leave lots of space.
: The problem with using large letters is that we have a mesorah of which
: letters should be big or small, and these pesukim are meant to be neither.)

That came up here too, vol 12n117 onward.

But there is no mesorah about how to carve replacement luchos. Perhaps
they were all large on the luchos, even though we don't do that in the
seifer Torah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Never must we think that the Jewish element
mi...@aishdas.org        in us could exist without the human element
http://www.aishdas.org   or vice versa.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch

On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 09:17:22AM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
:> I have myself been the victim of rudeness on the part of frum Jews in
:> Brooklyn and Yerushalayim so I know that we have people in our midst
:> who could stand to have their rough edges polished. Nevertheless we
:> have so much to be proud of. We need to stress what is positive about
:> our community, when there is so much more light than darkness.

: Interesting debate between 2 schools of mussar-gadlut haadam and shiflut haadam.

However, "shiflus ha'adam" is not about how man is basically evil. It's
about how dependent we are on HQBH. Novhardok's shiflus ha'adam can not
be separated from their emphasis on bitachon.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

If some treif substance is batel is there any reason not to eat the
combination because it contains some treif substance which will cause
timtum halev. How because it is allowed to be eaten does it remove timtum
halev 
=============================
IIRC It's a machloket - some say that you should eat it because those
sparks in the previously treif portion were meant to be raised by your
eating (pls don't ask me what that means), others say there is no timtum
because halacha determines reality, others say yes timtum because there is
some element of treif.
B"N I'll look for the sources at home.
KT
Joel Rich
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Re: not eating Zli at the Seder

Who First Equated Zli Keidar to Zli mamash?

Zissen Pesach
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
>
> When the Chevraya Kadisha wanted to put him in a strong cherem that would
> cut him off from the shoresh of his neshama and guarantee that he would
> shmad, ch"v,

It's surprising to me that someone can even believe in such a concept
at all, but to say "guarantee" seems to be a denial of 'bechira', c'v,
and would mark all those believing in such nonsense as 'kofrim', r'l.
I honestly don't know which one is worse, as I usually feel that
idiocy is far worse then 'kefira', as a 'kofer' can repent and an
idiot has little such hope. But here the 'kefira' is a display of an
even greater level of idiocy...

KT,
MSS

On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 02:13:07PM -0500, Samuel Svarc wrote:
: It's surprising to me that someone can even believe in such a concept
: at all, but to say "guarantee" seems to be a denial of 'bechira', c'v,

This is just an aspect of my problem with "Practical Qabbalah". By adding
all these metaphysical forces, one removes events from the domain of
the straight bechirah, hashgachah, sekhar va'onesh domain and gives
them explanations that allow for events that aren't Din or Rachamim,
perhaps not even letav.

Which is why every time I see that our group of regulars shifted, I
manage to find a way to re-raise the question RETurkel asks:
: If some treif substance is batel is there any reason not to eat the
: combination because it contains some treif substance which will cause
: timtum halev. How because it is allowed to be eaten does it remove
: timtum halev

Similarly, the mezuzah that was hung and checked kedin, but kelapei
Shemaya galya there is a flaw in it. Why would it protect any less?


On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 11:52:03AM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
: IIRC It's a machloket - some say that you should eat it because those
: sparks in the previously treif portion were meant to be raised by your
: eating (pls don't ask me what that means), others say there is no timtum
: because halacha determines reality, others say yes timtum because there
: is some element of treif.

Three positions. I would have listed them thus:
1- Treif is a consequence of a metaphysical reality. Even if halakhah
says that we don't have to worry about the damage in this case, if
someone happen to have erred and ate cheilev, then the damage is still
there.

2- Metaphysical realities are a consequence of halakhah. Therefore, if
it's mutar, then there are no ill effects.

2b- ... AND since this allows the redemption of something otherwise
treif, there is even an added benefit to the universe.

I happen to think this machloqes is the fundamental difference between
the Gra's Qabbalah and that of Chassidus. The NhC writes that all
metaphysical changes are a consequence of changes to people, for only
the neshamah includes all the kochos from all the olamos. Thus, the only
way for action in olam ha'asiyah can impact higher olamos is via its
pull on a neshamah which then pulls in that olam.

This was central to my whole (provocatively named) Maimonidian Qabbalah
category on Aspaqlaria. (The name comes from the parallel the Leshem
makes between the various tzuros in the various olamos and the Rambam's
definition of mal'akh.)

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:44 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
<SNIP>
> RSMandel convinced me way back in 2002 (see
> <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol09/v09n055.shtml#04>) to take the
> MB's haqdamah at face value. It was written to be a survey of shitos
> that post-date the standardization of the page of the SA, to make them
> available to people who can't collect every seifer. It wasn't written
> to be a collection of pesaq.

Let everyone go and actually read the hagdamah inside. It is clear
that the CC meant it for pesaq. He writes so explicitly.

To quote (using RSMAndel's translation) "The second reason [that we
see that only a small number of people set a seder for learning
halacha l'masseh]... is that it is difficult to know the halokho
l'ma'aseh because of the multiple disagreements brought by the
acharonim". The reason that R' Micha is quoting, that people don't
have access, is written after the CC's second reason as 'V'od'.

Is it reasonable to suppose that the CC wanted to fix the problem of
"it is difficult to know the halokho l'ma'aseh because of the multiple
disagreements brought by the acharonim" by making a "survey of
shitos"? This is illogical and a clear misreading of the hagdamah.

KT,
MSS


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