Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 70

Thu, 11 Mar 2010

• 1. Re: [Areivim] Dog Food For Pesach (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: [Areivim] Dog Food For Pesach (Ben Waxman)
• 3. Re: Who said it first? 2 (Saul Mashbaum)
• 4. Re: Who said it first? 2 (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 5. Clarification on No pox on lox, insists Monsey group More on Worms in Fish (Yitzchok Levine)
• 6. Is Lox Kosher? (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 7. Re: Clarification on No pox on lox, insists Monsey group More on Worms in Fish (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Is Lox Kosher? (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Yehoshua and Yehonasan (Chanoch (Ken) Bloom)
• 10. Re: Is Lox Kosher? (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Dog Food For Pesach (T6...@aol.com)
• 12. Re: Dog Food For Pesach (Ben Waxman)
• 13. R' H Schachter-kashrut (Rich, Joel)
• 14. Re: R' H Schachter-kashrut (Yitzchak Schaffer)
• 15. motzei pesach (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 16. Re: R' H Schachter-kashrut (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:45:28AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> : >I wonder if the problem is that many of the kinds of kibble aren't
> : >actually less than 50% wheat and water, and it's a difference in
> : >metzi'us issue.
> 
> : Next time you're at the supermarket go look at the various brands of
> : cat and dog food, and see if you can find one that lists a grain as one
> : of the first two or three ingredients...
> 
> First find one that lists each of the kinds of chunks in the mix, and
> then we can discuss it. For that matter, we're talking about dough, not
> wheat -- do they list the water content?

Since it's a solid, most the water is presumably baked out.  And I've
never seen one where a grain is high enough on the list to make the
mixture mostly chametz, even counting all the water the grain could
possibly have absorbed.


> Are you assuming that easily sorted items, like the red kibble from the
> brown, still combine as a taaroves?

In my experience (with cat rather than dog food) it's all one colour.
I assume the ingredients are all mixed into a dough, cut into little
bits, and baked.   Is dog food that different?

PS: I assume we're talking about dry (bagged) food, rather than wet
(canned); the latter has even less grain content, and looking at it
is enough to tell that whatever chametz it contains is far less than
half.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

The first ingredient in my cats' food is corn. They'll eat anything as long
as it tastes like meat or fish and that is accomplished by adding fats, meat
by products, flavorings. But the main ingredient (especially the cheaper
brands) is a grain.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zev Sero" <z...@sero.name>

Next time you're at the supermarket go look at the various brands of
cat and dog food, and see if you can find one that lists a grain as one
of the first two or three ingredients.  I have never seen such a thing,
and I can't imagine that one could exist, because cats and dogs are
primarily carnivores.

RRW, on the son saying the "mah nistana"
>>>

Adderabba the simple read of the mishneh

   [Kan or kein] the son asks and if the son lacks da'as THEN the father
   teaches him "mah mishtaneh halayla hazah ..."

At no point is there any evidence in Rambam Rashi Rashbam [or other
rishonim AFAIK] that the formula was said by the child

Rather the son was prodded to ask

And if the son failed to ask he was then taught the mah nishtaneh by
the father!

>>>

See the Malbim on this passage in the Hagaddah where he says just what RRW
is saying.


http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=10814&;st=&pgnum=14&hilite=

Very free partial translation:

(What the rabbis say) "The seder plate is removed so that the children
should ask" does not mean to say so that they should ask these questions
(ie, the "mah nishtana")  but that they should ask whatever they are moved
to ask (see Tosafot Psachim 115b at the end, dibbur hamatchil  'k'dei"
).Each child asks according to his intelligence and understanding... But the
fixed text ("nusach") "mah nishtana", if the son is not wise enough to ask
by himself, HIS FATHER TEACHES HIM.
And the rabbis instituted that THE ADULTS say this text before telling the
story of the exodus,...because by mentioning these differences the story
will be told from the very beginning with profound emotion....

Please follow the link to see exactly how the Malbim puts it

Saul Mashbaum.
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Saul Mashbaum 
> See the Malbim on this passage in the Hagaddah where he says just what RRW is saying.
> http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=10814&;st=&pgnum=14
> Very free partial translation:(What the rabbis say) "The seder plate
> is removed so that the children should ask" does not mean to say so that
> they should ask these questions (ie, the "mah nishtana") but that they
> should ask whatever they are moved to ask (see Tosafot Psachim 115b at
> the end, dibbur hamatchil 'k'dei").
> Each child asks according to his intelligence and understanding... But
> the fixed text ("nusach") "mah nishtana", if the son is not wise enough
> to ask by himself, HIS FATHER TEACHES HIM.
 
Well Said virtually nothing I'm saying on this thread is new! Furthermore
I've posted it to Avodah before -- but merely couched it differently.
 
This Series is mostly about either restoring the orginal intentions or
to highlight the context of how things we take for granted first came
to light.
 
This thread attempts to 
1 restore the original p'shat in the Mishnah 
2 identify WHO first put up the youngest child to ask this formula. 
 
1 B"H we can now see how the Mishnah was read before "nisqatnu hadoros" ;-)
but 
2 we have failed to identify the first to propose that the youngest
child ask....
 
ZP 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

>In what I sent out earlier  from 
>http://www.lohud.com/article/20100309/NEWS03/3
>090385/No-pox-on-lox--insists-Monsey-group 
>I quoted
>
>"Go ahead,  eat lox," said Yisroel Neiman, a 
>member of Chevra Mehadrin, a Monsey organization 
>that prepared a report on fish and Jewish law. "It's kosher ? I just had some."
>
>Neiman said he had no idea why the report was 
>being interpreted to mean that salmon, the fish 
>from which nova lox is made, violates Jewish dietary law.
>
>"They made it up," Neiman said, referring to 
>media organizations who attributed the ban on 
>lox to the report. "It's a lie. We never said lox isn't kosher."

I have learned from Rabbi Chaim Goldberg of the 
OU that Neiman's statements are misleading. Rabbi 
Goldberg explained the following to me. Some fish 
are produced on "fish farms" whereas as other 
fish is caught in is natural habitat.  Fish 
produced under controlled conditions on farms is 
called farmed fish and fish that are caught in 
their natural habitat are called wild caught.

This Monsey group and the others who claim that 
there are worms in our fish are referring to wild 
caught fish. Take a look at a can of Alaskan 
salmon. You will see that it says wild caught on it.

Virtually all lox is made from farmed salmon. 
This Monsey group and the others who hold like 
they do regarding there being worms in fish agree 
that there is no problem with worms in farmed salmon.

Thus, Neiman can say there is no problem with lox 
and that he just had some, since virtually all lox is made from farmed salmon.

The impression given by the news blurb is that 
there is no problem with worms in fish according 
to the Monsey group. But this is not their 
position. They still maintain that certain types 
of wild caught fish do have worms in them.

Yitzchok Levine 
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Pursuant to finding new problems in what has been established as muttar...

Background:
Today the local baker came in to where I work. He tole me that they
close a full week before Passover.

I asked - what about Hallah for the last Shabbos - IE Shabbos Hagadol?

He said - Let them eat frozen Hallah.

I said - it's not as good [basing myself on the halachah that allows
fresh baked Bread on YT ]

He said it IS just as good. [T'imas kefeilah?]

-------------------------


on YT is no longer permitted? Being that since we now can get just as
good Hallah by using frozen?

And if it's still muttar - Why?

ZP
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> I have learned from Rabbi Chaim Goldberg of the OU that Neiman's 
> statements are misleading.

I don't see how.


> This Monsey group and the others who claim that there are worms in our 
> fish are referring to wild caught fish [...] This Monsey group and the 
> others who hold like they do regarding there being worms in fish agree 
> that there is no problem with worms in farmed salmon.

Yes, they always said so, from the very first day they brought it up.


> Thus, Neiman can say there is no problem with lox and that he just had 
> some, since virtually all lox is made from farmed salmon.

Yes, exactly.  In addition, lox is thin-sliced, so one can easily find
the worm's cyst if it's present.


> The impression given by the news blurb is that there is no problem with 
> worms in fish according to the Monsey group.

How is that impression given?  The fish thing erupted weeks ago.  The
article from a few days ago was specifically about lox and not any other
kind of fish, and caused a ruckus because of that; Neiman correctly said
that the journalists made the whole thing up.  Where do you see any kind
of implication that there is never any kind of problem with fish?  Well-
known poskim (albeit a minority) have agreed that there is indeed a
problem.  Just not with lox.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 10:56:17PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: Pursuant to finding new problems in what has been established as muttar...

Although it's different because the baker is claiming a change in
metzi'us. The old situation would still be mutar, it's only because we
now have better freezers / preservatives.

That is unlike saying that halakhah changes in response to new knowledge
about the old situation, or just ruling differently than historical
pesaq based on approaching halakhah texts with a blank slate.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 10:11:17AM -0600, Lisa Liel wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:46:29 -0500, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> 
> >The niqud we see in siddurim for the sheim Havayah is that of
> >sheim Adnus, with the minor alteration of putting a sheva under
> >the yud instead of a chataf patach. (Not sure if that's because
> >the printer thought that a chataf patach under a yud looks weird,
> >or because it would widen the word -- a sheva fits under the yud
> >better.) This is standard practice for q'ri ukesiv, to place the
> >niqud for the q'ri.
> >
> >BUT, if the vowels of the first two letters weren't sheva and
> >cholam, why would Yehoshua and Yehonasan as they are?
> >
> >That's assuming, of course, that the suffix version is more likely
> >to be modified: Yoshiyahu, Eliyahu....

The halacha seforim (e.g. Halacha Berura) say it's the nikudot for
L'Olam. I bet this isn't just a decision of the printers to do the
nikudot this way, and that there's some significance to the fact that
it's l'olam, and not the shem adnut.

--Ken

-- 
Chanoch (Ken) Bloom. PhD candidate. Linguistic Cognition Laboratory.
Department of Computer Science. Illinois Institute of Technology.
http://www.iit.edu/~kbloom1/

rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:

> Assuming the baker is correct - would that now imply that baking Hallah
> on YT is no longer permitted? Being that since we now can get just as
> good Hallah by using frozen?

No.  There's nothing as good as *fresh* baked bread.  But frozen bread
is just as good as yesterday-baked bread.  Time in the freezer doesn't
count (or counts so little, over the course of a week, that it's de
minimis).

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

 

Prof. Levine wrote:

>> This may also be the time to  remind people that no cat or dog food (at
>> least in my experience) is  more than ta'aroves chometz, and therefore
>> (since is is not "maachal  bnei adam hab'ri'im") it may be used on 
Pesach.







>>>>>
However many pet foods contain mixtures of milk and meat, a problem people  
should be aware of all year round.
 

--Toby  Katz
==========

--------------------


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Depends how the food is made. If the food is dry food, many companies don't
cook the ingredients together, but rather they take a lot of dried
ingredients and press them together. If so, then no problem. Note - some
companies do cook the ingredients and that would be problematic.

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: T6...@aol.com 




  >>>>>
  However many pet foods contain mixtures of milk and meat, a problem people should be aware of all year round.


  --Toby Katz
  ==========
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R'HS spoke last night and mentioned 32 kashrut items we've discussed
1. No timtum halev if something is halachically kosher
2. Hechsher means all ingredients are kosher/ no bittul etc. because that's what people expect


KT
Joel Rich
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On 3/11/2010 11:45, Rich, Joel wrote:
> R'HS spoke last night and mentioned 32 kashrut items we've discussed

> 2. Hechsher means all ingredients are kosher/ no bittul etc. because
> that's what people expect

What does this mean?  For example, my impression from discussing the OU 
on dried-strawberry cereals with one of their rabbinic folks is that the 
sevara of "if there are any bugs, they've disintegrated" is somehow 
involved.  I don't know if that's the only factor in that case, but it 
was cited.

-- 
Yitzchak Schaffer
Systems Manager
Touro College Libraries
33 West 23rd Street
New York, NY 10010
Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230
Fax (212) 627-3197
Email yitzchak.schaf...@tourolib.org

Access Problems? Contact systems.libr...@touro.edu

so if the israeli gets on the plane motzei pesach and  eats the  chametz 
meal  , is he  chayav  kares?


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R Joel Rich:
> R'HS spoke last night and mentioned kashrut items we've discussed
...
> 2. Hechsher means all ingredients are kosher/ no bittul etc. because
> that's what people expect

In a private email response from a major agency they pretty much said
the same. Having non-kosher ingredeints listed on a certified product
would undermine their ne'emanus.

{Parenthetically they also said they have enough tzaros w/o adding this,
too. ;-) }

This pretty much agrees with my earlier posts stating that European
style lists can be more lenient l'chatchilah than can American kashrus
agencies, albeit my suggested dynamics may have been different And that
gets to the murky area of Halachah vs. Policy.

Another major agency insisted to me that they maintain certain "standards"
many of which were admittedly not to be found in SA.
[Just as my Chinese owner will not package his food in mere boxes that
have dairy or treif labels because of Ch'shad]

Now if some intrepid advocates of strict textual Halachah want to start
a new agency that makes no such additional strictures - it's a free
country! Go for it.

The Agencies seem to be saying 
A: that it's not THEIR humras that drive this - rather 
B: it's the consumer's humros in the marketplace that drive this.

RY Schaeffer
> "if there are any bugs, they've disintegrated" is somehow involved.
> I don't know if that's the only factor in that case, but it. was cited.

There is a big hiluq between definite issur and suspected [safeiq] issur.

AIUI bittul l'chathcilah for s'feiq issur is muttar. 

Also - as above - the bugs are not a listed, desired ingredient. So
Agencies are not concerned about giving their blessings to bugs. They
are like "davar she'ino miskavein."

ZP
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile


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