Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 73

Tue, 16 Mar 2010

• 1. Re: The Yeshivas and the Seder (Yitzchak Schaffer)
• 2. Ilanot tovot (Simon Montagu)
• 3. The Yeshivas and the Seder (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: The Yeshivas and the Seder (Ira Tick)
• 5. timtum halev (Eli Turkel)
• 6. more on the seder (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: Story About Rav Schwab and the Seder (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 8. Re: Ran and Kabbalah - seeking sources (David Riceman)
• 9. Re: More on the Seder (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 10. Re: More on the Seder (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 11. Re: More on the Seder (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: More on the Seder (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: The Yeshivas and the Seder (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 14. Timtum Halev (Joseph C. Kaplan)
• 15. Re: Who First Said it? (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: several questions (T6...@aol.com)

On 3/15/2010 14:15, Yosef Skolnick wrote:
> I would be happy to say that I agree with you.  I have a big concern
> though.  There are students in the schools that don't have parents that
> know enough to be able to teach their children.  Either the parents
> never got to go to yeshiva for one reason or another, or there was a
> divorce in the family etc.  If the kids don't know some of the story
> from school, when will they learn it to teach to their children.

Only half in jest, perhaps a mandatory prep program for parents!  (I 
guess a test-out option would have to be offered as well...)  See also
http://www.theshmuz.com/pesach/

"This Pesach Make the Story of Yetzias Mitzrayim Come to Life for Your 
Children & Guests! In Less Than 5 hours of Audio Listening, You can be 
Telling Over With Crystal Clarity the Miraculous Events That Took 
Place... Even if you haven't looked at the Mefarshim yet!"

-- 
Yitzchak Schaffer
Systems Manager
Touro College Libraries
33 West 23rd Street
New York, NY 10010
Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230
Fax (212) 627-3197
Email yitzchak.schaf...@tourolib.org

Access Problems? Contact systems.libr...@touro.edu

I was reviewing hilchot birkat ha'ilanot, and was surprised that it says
"ilanot tovot", not "ilanot tovim", although in every other context that I
can think of "ilan" is masculine. Do any mefareshim raise this question?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100315/f34c6fb3/attachment-0001.htm>

At 05:23 PM 3/15/2010, R. Yosef Skolnick wrote:


> > *Dare one suggest that it is time for the yeshivas to stop preparing their
> > talmidim for the seder and follow Reb Yaakov's approach?
> >
>
>I would be happy to say that I agree with you.  I have a big concern though.
>  There are students in the schools that don't have parents that know enough
>to be able to teach their children.  Either the parents never got to go to
>yeshiva for one reason or another, or there was a divorce in the family etc.
>  If the kids don't know some of the story from school, when will they learn
>it to teach to their children.
>
>Yosef Skolnick

It is not me that anyone has to agree with.  Remember, I had a story 
from Reb Yaakov Kamenetsky in which he said this.

I will agree with you that it depends on the school. Certainly, if 
many of the students come from "weak" homes, as one often finds in 
day schools in cities with a relatively small number of observant 
families, then the school should teach much about the Seder.

However, even (or especially) in the Chareidi schools here in 
Brooklyn, one finds that the kids come home "armed."  In these 
schools the parent body is well educated Jewishly.

YL


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100315/719a9d8e/attachment-0001.htm>

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:15 PM, Yosef Skolnick <yskoln...@gmail.com> wrote:

> *
>>
>> *Dare one suggest that it is time for the yeshivas to stop preparing
>> their talmidim for the seder and follow Reb Yaakov's approach?
>>
>
> I would be happy to say that I agree with you.  I have a big concern
> though.  There are students in the schools that don't have parents that know
> enough to be able to teach their children.  Either the parents never got to
> go to yeshiva for one reason or another, or there was a divorce in the
> family etc.  If the kids don't know some of the story from school, when will
> they learn it to teach to their children.
>
> Yosef Skolnick
>

Divorce might affect the issue of the father's responsibility, bringing the
communal responsibility of teachers to the scene.  But is v'higadta similar
to v'dibarta in this manner?  Is the community responsible, or is the mother
responsible?

As to the general issue, children are inevitably--as they should
be--educated in school about the story of the Exodus and about the laws and
customs of the holiday, simply because of the role that schools occupy in
our society, where parents have neither the time nor the expertise to
be completely responsible for directing educating their children.  So the
issue seems to be whether or not young children need to be poised to learn
all the tidbits of the seder itself--such as the many vignettes of the
Haggadah, which barely touches upon the Chumash's account and focuses on
specific lessons of Jewish history, survival, and cultural
narrative. Perhaps children should be "misdirected" to focus on aspects of
the story that leave room for parents to discuss the significance of freedom
and Hashem's hand in the world. A big part of V'Higadta is to make the story
very personal--"This is what Hashem did for me," which only parents and
caregivers can really impart to children.  Parents should discuss with their
kids what it means to them to be free and part of Am Yisrael.

Another important idea is to simply ask children questions.  Don't let them
read off packets and sing song after song from class about plagues and such,
but ask them specifically about what they've learned about specific parts of
the story.  And ask them experiential questions, like what they think it
would be like to be on scene when the events took place.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100315/a7a91e49/attachment-0001.htm>

<<It seems to me that in the dispute over whether Chilul Shabos for
Sakana is "hutrah" or "dechuyah", there is comparatively little
difference in Halacha L'Maaseh. The main differences are in these
metaphysical areas.>>

I didn't understand the difference. Even if pikuach nefesh is dechuya
the halacha is that
gedolei yisroel (interpreted as the great rabbis) should be the ones
to do saving.
There is no chillul shabbat even if it turns out that there was no danger.

Why would be there be any damage to the soul if we are commanded to be
mechalel shabbat
even through dechuya. On the contrary one is credited with a great mitzvah
independent of hutra or dechuya

-- 
Eli Turkel

<<(Someone) was upset one year when a group of guests at his seder table
were learning rather than paying attention to the proceedings. He
nicely urged them to go to the living room to continue
learning,  "Here we are having a seder and telling of the story of
Yetzias Mitzraim. This is not the time for learning. It is the time
for listening and retelling the story.">>

I dont know what they were learning but RYBS holds that part
of sippur yetziat mitzrayim is talmud torah


-- 
Eli Turkel

Seems pashut to me that if a yeshiva student has a haggadah with a
peirush that he can be m'ayein while the family is discussing p'shat -
just as during qri'as hatorah one can look @ Rashi etc.

I can recall my first "lamdusher" haggadah[say grade 10] was a migdal
eider - and I'd peek at comments as the seder went along and as long as
it's me'inyana d'yoma - what's the harm?

Seems pashut that everyone would take lessons from the seder as per
their own madreiga.

But to go awol - that's not such a good idea.

------------------------


has reciting y'tzia'as mitzrayim and the Tosefta has learning Hilchos
Pesach. Seems to me that both versions make sense and people should
be able to do either...

My 2 prutos ;-)

RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Me:
> : Tshuvos HaRivash #157.  If you have the M'chon Yerushalayim edition 
> : check out footnote 7.
>   
RMB:
> Could you write something on list for those of us who don't have fn 7?
>   
Rivash: My teacher, Rabbeinu Nissim, informed me privately that the 
Ramban "involved himself much more than necessary in belief in kabbalah" 
[harbei yoteir midai taka atzmo haRamban z"l l'ha'amin b'inyan 
hakabbalah], and therefore I don't involve myself in that science 
because I did not receive it from a wise initiate [mekubbal haham].

<I was unsure how to translate the bit in quotation marks so I stole 
Rabbi Kanarfogel's translation from p. 258 of Rabbi Bleich's book "With 
Perfect Faith".  I hope the snippet is short enough to be deemed fair use.>

Footnote 7: See similar remarks in Tshuvos REM  #1, Tshuvos MaHaRSHaL 
#98  <one of my personal favorites>, and Tshuvos  Havoth Yair at the end 
of #210 citing the Rama.

David Riceman

R? YL:
Reb Zalman Alpert sent me the following:

I heard from Rabbi Avrohom Hoffman of Cong Shaare Hatikvah in Washington
Heights that his rebbe,? the late Rabbi Simon Schwab, ZT"L,? was upset one
year when a group of guests at his seder table were learning rather than
paying attention to the proceedings. Rav Schwab nicely urged them to go to
the living room to continue learning,? "Here we are having a seder and
telling of the story of Yetzias Mitzraim. This is not the time for learning.
It is the time for listening and retelling the story." 
-----------------


Maariv, and about the new-fangled "Yeshivas Mordechai Hatzaddik." Thoughts?

KT,
MYG

RDYLevine writes
<I heard from Rabbi Avrohom Hoffman of Cong Shaare Hatikvah in 
Washington Heights that his rebbe,  the late Rabbi Simon Schwab, 
ZT"L,  was upset one year when a group of guests at his seder table 
were learning rather than paying attention to the proceedings. Rav 
Schwab nicely urged them to go to the living room to continue 
learning,  "Here we are having a seder and telling of the story of 
Yetzias Mitzraim. This is not the time for learning. It is the time 
for listening and retelling the story."

This too is a very important lesson to keep in mind today with the 
proliferation of lomdishe haggados etc.>
     The five tana'im who spent the entire leil haseder in Bnai Brak
     weren't just telling the story.  Indeed, there is a girsa that "Amar
     lahem R. Elazar ben Azaria harei ani k'ven shivim shana," which means
     that the machlokes of Ben Zoma and the chachamim was an integral part
     of their sippur.  Furthermore, the answer to the chacham, one of the
     four approaches to SYM, is "emor lo k'hilchos haPesach."  Obviously,
     then, SYM includes lomdus regarding Pesach matters.
     If the story cited is accurate, perhaps the learning being done by the
     guests was unrelated to Pesach and its mitzvos.  The "proliferation of
     lomdishe haggados," on the other hand, is meant to elicit discussion
     which is part and parcel of sippur.
EMT

 

____________________________________________________________
Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat!
http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100316/2a3122be/attachment-0001.htm>

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 08:08:40PM -0400, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: That's how I feel when I see a bunch of people leave a wedding to daven
: Maariv, and about the new-fangled "Yeshivas Mordechai Hatzaddik." Thoughts?

... or turning the chupah into a tear-filled Tehillim time for the
kallah.

However, I have more slack for those who went (hopefully you mean to a
side-room) Maariv. I'm the kind of guy who if he doesn't daven when he
remembers, may not daven later ch"v.

Lakol zeman va'eis...

But that too needs to be balanced against other concerns. The older I
get, the more I realize how few decisions are all that black-and-white.
Probably because the things that don't require weighing pros and cons
tend not to require any conscious decision-making.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 09:27:01AM +0000, Elazar M. Teitz wrote:
: The five tana'im who spent the entire leil haseder in Bnai Brak
: weren't just telling the story...

Acording to R' Hai Gaon, they were darshening Yetzi'as Mitzrayim in order
to come up with a pesaq on backing Bar Kochva. All 5 end up being among
BK's supporters.

R Hai Gaon also translates the "askera" that killed Rabbi Akiva's talmidim
during the omer period (Yevamos 62b) as "sicarii" (singluar: sicarius),
a dagger used by the lower ranks of Roman soldier. (In contrast to
Rashi's identification of "askera" with diptheria.)

(BTW, Josephus calls the Biryonim who rebelled against Rome at the end
of Bayis Sheini "Sicarii" -- men of the dagger. A "sicarii" is also a
kind of gladiator who entered the ring with a long curved knife. So mabe
my use of "dagger" wasn't the best choice of word.)

This explanation of what they were up all night studying would explain
"Raboseinu, higi'ah zeman Qeri'as Shema shel Shacharis". Who would have
the temerity to correct 5 of the greatest rabbanim of all history on a
matter every Jew knows? And why there were talmidim who could see that it
was sunrise, rather than being with their rabbeim who couldn't? Rather,
it was the talmidim stationed as lookouts against the Romans were the ones
who informed their rabbeim. The rabbeim were in a closed room, in hiding.

All that said, I don't know if this R' Hai Gaon nor the nusakh "Amar
lahem R. Elazar ben Azaria harei ani k'ven shivim shana" (which REMT
brings) is a raayah for REMT. After all, they were up all night. But
the mitzvah is when "pesach matzah umaror munachim lefanekha" (kein
tihyeh lanu!). Perhaps they switched from the "ki yish'alkha binekha"
format of sippur to something more lomdish after chatzos?

As REMT also writes:
: If the story cited is accurate, perhaps the learning being done by
: the guests was unrelated to Pesach and its mitzvos. The "proliferation
: of lomdishe haggados," on the other hand, is meant to elicit discussion
: which is part and parcel of sippur.

Certainly R' Hai Gaon's notion was in the morning, thus the lookouts at
Shema time.

I would even argue that the machloqes Ben Zoma vs. the Chakhamim that
REBA cites may have been brought in that context. After all, the Chakhamim
conclude "'kol yemei chayekha' lehavi liymos hamashiach".

Now I'm curious to know if we can establish R' Hai Gaon's nusakh.


I think all this ties into RRW's question about when the youngest son
started saying Mah Nishtanah; IOW, when did Mah Nishtanah shift from an
"at pesakh lo" for a child who didn't ask questions spontaneously into
prewritten questions for the child to ask.

That same shift is continuing when we have melamdim giving our children
material they already know to present at the seder.

But it drifts from the real Q&A format of the original when the questions
are scripted.

(BTW, my father's rule was that we can tell over any devar Torah we can
say without looking into our notes. That too cut out about 1/2 - 2/3 of
what we were taught, keeping the seder down to managable length.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> From the gemara it seems to me that younger children are not
> supposed to know very much about what to expect at the Seder.
> ... They not only know what will happen, but,

One could make an argument to the contrary, that they do indeed know what
to expect. How else do the children know, already at the start of Maggid,
that there will be a second dipping? (I've seen this question elsewhere,
and don't recall the answer.)

> [the rabbi] was upset one year when a group of guests at his
> seder table were learning rather than paying attention to
> the proceedings.

It's not clear what you mean by "learning". Inattention to the proceedings
certainly sounds rude, but isn't it true that learning Hilchos Pesach
counts as Sippur Yetzias Mitrayim in this context?

All the above notwithstanding, I'd like to note that I do agree with RYL's
sentiments that the trend towards kids running the seder should be reversed
where possible. I think the development of this trend is easy to identify:
Originally, a child's *entire* chinuch was from the parents, but long ago
this was turned over to professional educators. Or at least the bulk of it
was, while some portions remained in the parents' domain. In the past
century or so, for various reasons, even these last vestiges are being
turned over to the schools. This is true both in our world and in the world
at large -- think of sex education in the public schools, or ethics courses
in business school.

It seems to me that similar things are happening with Sippur Yetzias
Mitzrayim. We have collectively abdicated our role as mechanchim and turned
it over to the Hagada. I bet you thought I was going to write "to the
schools". No, I suspect that we're dealing with the whole
textualism/mimeticism thing here. Specifically, consider this: Why does
anyone other than the leader of the seder have a Hagada in their hands at
all? I wonder if this very act, of giving each attendee his/her own Hagada,
might be part of the root of this problem. Of course, we give them a Hagada
to help them follow along. But that does at least two negative things: (1)
Being able to follow along makes it tempting to slip into a less attentive
mode. (2) Perhaps even worse, having one's own hagada empowers a person to
want to participate and even lead the seder, in exactly the manner RYL
bemoans.

My family has always read Maggid by going around the table, each person
taking turns reading a paragraph at a time. I had always thought this to be
a great idea, enabling everyone to do the mitzva of *telling* the story.
But more and more, I'm coming to appreciate the price we're paying for it,
in the loss of this parent to child mesora.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Hotel
Hotel pics, info and virtual tours.  Click here to book a hotel online.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/c?cp=Mpq1RJyvFysu7q84i-v9QQAAJ
z3zeK-F0bLcqGb51B0rOTOKAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATRAAAAAA=

RAM writes: "Even the very best of hechsherim is not perfect; if someone
totally innocently ate such food, and it turned out to be treif, would you
say that it is not m'tamtem his lev even a tiny bit? What about someone
whose tefillin had been checked over the years by a dozen expert sofrim,
and only decades later was it discovered that an entire word was missing;
Hashem can give him all sorts of credits for trying, but do you think that
he'll really get full credit as if the word had been there all along?"

I don't know what RDC, to whom the questions were directed, would answer,
but I would answer "yes" to both questions.  Of course, what do I know
about this.  But I think RAM's comment about "being above my pay scale"
applies to almost everyone with respect to these matters.

Joseph Kaplan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100316/e1db30b3/attachment-0001.htm>

The repetition of zecher/zeicher definitely goes back further than the
MB.  The Toras Chesed, who was the Lubliber Rov from 1868 to 1892,
once remarked "zecher, zeicher, abi opmeken" (so long as we erase);
this shows that the repetition was customary in his day.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

> 3. What is the purpose of the bride wearing a heavy veil  (dech tikel) 
[--RET]

The gemara calls it a "hinuma", which Rashi says is  because it's so
dark under it that she can fall asleep.



--  
Zev  Sero                      
 

>>>>>>
 
That may explain the name but it doesn't explain the *purpose.*    Surely 
it is not desired that the kallah fall asleep while walking to the  chupa?  
What is the *purpose* of the thick veil?
 
I suspect it has something to do with ayin hara, not having people stare at 
 the kallah.  But that's just a guess.
 
 

--Toby Katz
==========




-------------------- 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20100315/19d43a1c/attachment.htm>

------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 27, Issue 73
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."