Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 102

Mon, 19 Apr 2010

• 1. Re: chametz after pesach (Akiva Blum)
• 2. dal dal dal (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 3. Sobering Thoughts as Israel's Independence Day Approaches (Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org)
• 4. Re: chametz after pesach (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 5. Re: chametz after pesach (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 6. Re: Shemini and Tazria-Metzora-- from R. Yisrael Salanter (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 7. Re: dal dal dal - correction (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 8. Re: Sobering Thoughts as Israel's Independence Day Approaches (Harry Maryles)
• 9. Re: Who First Said It? 9 - No Music during Sefirah (Danny Schoemann)
• 10. Re: Who First Said It? 7 - Mourning during Sefirah (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 11. Re: chametz after pesach (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 12. Out-of-Bounds? 3 Ending a Taanis at Sundown (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 13. Re: Out-of-Bounds? 3 Ending a Taanis at Sundown (Yitzchok Zirkind)

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org 
> [mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Moshe Y. Gluck
> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 7:33 AM

> R' Eli Turkel:
> > R Elyashiv holds that any sale by a nonreligious Jew even though no
> > chametz is sold over Pesach is not valid as the sale is 
> viewed as some
> > formality and he doesn't really mean it.
> 
> Never understood this. If the sale is enforceable in Beis Din 
> and secular
> court, who cares what the person thinks? IOW, if there's a 
> shtar that's
> valid, then the courts wouldn't assume that Daas Makneh is an issue.
> 

A number of years ago, someone tried to get out of paying interest on a loan
based on the terms of the heter iska agreement. The bank claimed it was just a
religious trick to avoid ribis, but had no legal effect. The courts in Israel
sided with the bank. Rav Elyashiv holds that if the courts could void a
perfectly sound contract on the basis of 'religious purposes', then all the
hetter iskas are no good, unless worded in a way the would close this loophole.

It may be that the same is true here. Whereas the contract may be enforceable in
Beis Din, if the seller or buyer could refuse to comply, and the secular Israeli
courts would back him, on no more that the claim that the contract is for
religious purposes, that the sale is ineffective.

Akiva

so you are  proposing  that  a poor man loads  up his  family  with 
probably little  tzeidah laderech  to  shlep them  to stay who knows where 
, probably out in the strets, since there is no free room at the inn, and 
then has to go looking around for  a public  seder   [ ie  most  wealthy 
families  doubtless brought  their whole clan to stay at the time's 
equivalent of The Chevra. i guess the difference is then they would have 
let anyone in -- no one says tzar li hamakom ; unlike today, no tickee no 
washee....

also i guess those too far or poor to come, ate like us --  matza  maror , 
but no chagiga or pesach....


but my other question wasn't answered. were there korbanot  that people 
collected  for ; or did they just avoid  atonement?
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possibilities---

1. the whole enterprise is  evil,  and the sitra achra will go to all 
lengths to fool the frum jews who  'fell for it'.  ie  in this scenario 
the NK-satmar position is the correct one ,   the DL  jews  fell in , the 
zionists are the erev rav/tools of the satan ; and all the non-frum jews 
don't come into the cheshbon

2. be'itta achishena. at a time when 90 % of jews fell away  from the 
torah derech,   the  frum jews  had not enough merit  to bring mashiach. 
but churban always is followed  by respite. here, the task was to build  a 
 sheerit lapleita. some saw this a holy task , others parve.   in any case 
,  it  was  sufficient  cause  to cause  irreversible theological and 
practical pirud between supposedly torah jews --allowing all sides to hate 
 their brethren leshem shamayim.
this  removes all sides' zchyos ,and it is truly chessed that it is 
allowed to stand

3. using the bilaam-iyov-yitro  analogy, it would seem that one extreme or 
the other should be the correct answer [ ie  either a holy enterprise or 
the work of the devil].  those  taking  the iyovian approach  of 
shev-val-tedaber  clearly  are asking for  trouble...

i am sure  there are a million other choices, though  the RBSO  has yet  a 
different  playbook....


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R' Akiva Blum:
It may be that the same is true here. Whereas the contract may be
enforceable in
Beis Din, if the seller or buyer could refuse to comply, and the secular
Israeli
courts would back him, on no more that the claim that the contract is for
religious purposes, that the sale is ineffective.
------------------


lawyers and a judge, all of whom said it would stand up in court. 

KT,
MYG

R' Moshe Gluck wrote:
> If the sale is enforceable in Beis Din and secular
> court, who cares what the person thinks?

Ditto. Especially since we are dealing here with a k'nas.

If I understand Chometz She'avar Alav Hapesach correctly, there's nothing
spiritually negative with such food. Rather, it's basically a boycott
against those who failed to get rid of their chometz, in order to induce
them to act correctly next year. If so, then as long as they've gone
through the motions of going to the rabbi and doing whatever the rabbi
tells him to do (sign the form, make a kinyan, whatever) then why would we
continue to boycott him?

What more do we ask of him? That he should become shomer mitzvos and put
his heart in it when he sells the chometz? Of course we would like that,
but AFAIK, Chazal never said to avoid shopping from a non-frum Jew. (And if
anyone finds such a halacha, it would apply all year, not merely soon after
Pesach.)

Akiva Miller

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llev...@stevens.edu

Quoting RYS
> Why does parashat Tazria immediately follow parashat Shmini?

I have a similar approach.

Background
In social studies we were taught the 3 necessities were
    food 
    clothing and 
    shelter.

Add one more - one's own body

Shmini from ch. 11 discusses food

Then with a digression for birthing the Torah goes to
    Body blemishes
    Clothing 
    Housing - IOW shelter

The pattern is from inside out.

Life Coaches might tell you that INFLUENCE starts from within and
spreads outward

Here the issues of tuma start from within - food
then
    [Zera]
    Body
    Clothing
    Housing

It is about tum'ah/taharah that is internal and spreading externally by
stages. It radiates from within outward.

This sequence is about one's spheres of influence, concentric spheres.

AISI this does not take away from RYS's point at all. Aderabba, I find
it rather complementary.

How? It's about seeing patterns in how the text progresses. One pattern
is Outisde the mouth vs. Inside. That is RYS's observation. We also
see the Torah progressing from internal to external, back to fluxes
[niddah, zav]

These patterns are part of the message on a literary level as opposed
to a simple word level IOW forests instead of trees.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

I wrote
> Re: qorban pesach a dal can simply join a chabura with an ashir and
> eat the bare minimum
> So there is no need for a special qorban etc. since a minimum chabura
> is 30.

This clause
> since a minimum chabura is 30.
Is in error and someone was kind enough to correct me offlist. 

Correction:
A chabura may be as small as one individual - so long as he can consume
an entire qorban himself.

I believe the thrust of my point stands, that since dallim can combine
they need not reduce the type qorban.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

I wrote about Yom Ha'atzmaut today on my my blog. Excerpts:
?
Today is the the 5th of Iyar. This is the anniversary of Israeli Independence. And it ought to be celebrated with great joy in Klal Yisroel...

I bring it up because of the issue of saying Hallel. Rav Ahron Soloveichik
held that no matter when the actual celebration takes place Hallel is to be
said on the 5th of Iyar. This was the Minhag he established when he was
Rosh HaYeshiva of the Hebrew Theological College, where it is still
celebrated on that day. And later in Yeshivas Brisk.

I do not follow my Rebbe?s Minhag in this because I do not believe that
Hallel is warranted. I agree with those that say we cannot establish public
Mihagim like this in our day. Rav Ahron concedes to the extent that no
Bracha should be made. But he feels that it is appropriate to recite the
Pesukim fromTehilim which comprise Hallel. We have recaptured Eretz Yisroel
for the first time since we lost it 2000 years ago upon the destruction of
the 2nd Temple. There were clearly many Nisisim Nistarim ? hidden miracles
that enabled Israels? small army and even smaller arsenal to overcome
mighty armies and great odds. He felt that this is a highly significant
event for which Hallel must be recited.

Although I do not say Hallel on this day, neither do I say Tachanun. It is
indeed significant that we have the land of Israel back in Jewish hands.
And that ought to be recognized in some way by all Jews ? religious or
otherwise. 

HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

--- On Sun, 4/18/10, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org> wrote:


From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org>
Subject: [Avodah] Sobering Thoughts as Israel's Independence Day Approaches
To: avo...@aishdas.org
Date: Sunday, April 18, 2010, 9:11 PM



possibilities--- 

1. the whole enterprise is ?evil, ?and the sitra achra will go to all
lengths to fool the frum jews who ?'fell for it'. ?ie ?in this scenario ?
the NK-satmar position is the correct one , ? the DL ?jews ?fell in , ? the
zionists are the erev rav/tools of the satan ; and all the non-frum jews
don't come into the cheshbon 

2. be'itta achishena. at a time when 90 % of jews fell away ?from the torah
derech, ? the ?frum jews ?had not enough merit ?to bring mashiach. but
churban always is followed ?by respite. here, the task was to build ?a
?sheerit lapleita. some saw this a holy task , others parve. ? in any case
, ?it ?was ?sufficient ?cause ?to cause ?irreversible theological and
practical pirud between supposedly torah jews --allowing all sides to hate
?their brethren leshem shamayim. 
this ?removes all sides' zchyos ,and it is truly chessed that it is allowed to stand 

3. using the bilaam-iyov-yitro ?analogy, it would seem that one extreme or
the other should be the correct answer [ ie ?either a holy enterprise or
the work of the devil]. ?those ?taking ?the iyovian approach ?of
shev-val-tedaber ?clearly ?are asking for ?trouble... 

i am sure ?there are a million other choices, though ?the RBSO ?has yet ?a different ?playbook....



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RRW:
>> ...When did S'fira and music first get linked?

Michael Poppers MPopp...@kayescholer.com
> Initially, IINM, due to not making weddings (which featured music)
> during the timespan in question

This matches up with Hil. "To make a Zeicher L'Churban", in SA OC 560:3
or Kitzur SA 126:3
????? ????? ???? ???? ???  - ????? ??? ?????? - ???? ?
??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ???
??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?????.

For those (like myself) who don't see the Hebrew:
"Similarly they decreed [after the Churban] not to hear any musical
instrument, not even vocal singing, and one should not sing during
meals except for those Zemiros that were instituted, like on Shabbos,
but other Piyutim are forbidden to be sung."

Dating back to the Churban, Yidden didn't sing nor hear music all year
round (except for Chosson-Kalla and on Shabbos).

So there was no reason to codify that it should be forbidden during the
S'fira period.

The query should therefore be: When did listening to [Jewish] music
become permitted (except for Chosson-Kalla and on Shabbos)?

- Danny

Revision to earlier post

Here's how I arrived at my hypothesis: *

A Seeing these texts 
  Tur O"Ch 493[:4]
  SA O"Ch 493:4
  Baer Hetev 11
  MB 18
  KSA 120:10
  The Ramban on Vayikra 23:36 where he explaina how both Shminie Atzeret
  and Shavuot are both called Atzeret...

B Learning Elu M'galchin and finding the common denominator between ChhM
  and Aveilus [which btw exludes music]

C Noticing the lack of sweeping aveilus in any early sources - rather
  finding a defined subset.

D Factoring in the Arizal's 48 day issur tispores

E Noting the term in KSA as "k'tzas aveilus" and NOT total aveilus

NB: KSA in beginnng of 6 - Where the scope is limitted by a klal and
prat format.


-------------------------



Intuitive leaps are made by "gestalt" type processing. That is studying
the data, and then extrapolating based upon the totality and NOT the
specifics.


Neither are these "yeish me'ayin" nor are they geometric proofs.

They are patterns that leap out to those whose minds process things
intuitively.

Since this is not a rigorous methodology, I am reluctant to alter halachah
this way, becuase I think Halachah ideally SHOULD be more rigorous or
at least more objective

OTOH in the area of machshava - aderabba! Such reading between the
lines is how Midrashim are continually generated.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

"Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgl...@gmail.com>:
> One Rabbi I know (here in the US) told me that he showed his Shtar to a few
> lawyers and a judge, all of whom said it would stand up in court. 

Indeed a talmid of mine who is also a lawyer is very makpid to make this
100% legal.

And he has a clause saying that there is no lean or mortgage and it is
a 100% sale.

I can BEH ask him for a copy of his contract and maybe we can upload it.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

An unnamed collegue wrote this. I am "snipping" it with his permission

> FWIW, when congregants ask me when a minor fast day "ends," I always
> give them the time of sundown.?The popular custom of "tzeit" strikes me
> as a burdensome and pointless chumra.

Is this in-bounds because the Aruch Hashulchan indeed does say this

Or

Is this out-of-bounds since Tur, SA, Rema and AFAIK the majority of
posqim require Tzeis - And therefore this would be a kind of "poreish
min hatzibbur"?

KT
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

See Piskei Tshuvos 562:1 (it is upto bein hasmoshos of R"T) "Avol chalila
lhokeil vlachol bein hashmoshos dhaGaonim af lfi divreihem".

2010/4/19 <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>

> An unnamed collegue wrote this. I am "snipping" it with his permission
>
> > FWIW, when congregants ask me when a minor fast day "ends," I always
> > give them the time of sundown. The popular custom of "tzeit" strikes me
> > as a burdensome and pointless chumra.
>
> Is this in-bounds because the Aruch Hashulchan indeed does say this
>
> Or
>
> Is this out-of-bounds since Tur, SA, Rema and AFAIK the majority of
> posqim require Tzeis - And therefore this would be a kind of "poreish
> min hatzibbur"?
>
> KT
> RRW
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>



-- 
Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind
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