Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 107

Mon, 26 Apr 2010

• 1. Re: [Areivim] Stop illegal dumping of religious items in Lakewood (Ben Waxman)
• 2. sobering thoughts (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 3. Re: [Areivim] Stop illegal dumping of religious items in Lakewood (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: [Areivim] Stop illegal dumping of religious items in Lakewood (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: kach nahag rav shach (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 6. Re: HaRav Yosef Ber Soloveitchik on Saying Hallel on Yom Ha'atzma'ut (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: HaRav Yosef Ber Soloveitchik on Saying Hallel on Yom Ha'Atzma'ut (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: Sobering Thoughts as Israel's Independence Day Approaches (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Re: [Areivim] Stop illegal dumping of religious items in Lakewood (Harry Maryles)
• 10. Re: Sobering Thoughts as Israel's Independence Day Approaches (Ben Waxman)
• 11. Re: Sobering Thoughts as Israel's Independence Day Approaches (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: Sobering Thoughts as Israel's Independence Day Approaches (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Who First Said It? 7 - Mourning during Sefirah (Arie Folger)
• 14. Re: Who First Said It? 7 - Mourning during Sefirah (Micha Berger)
• 15. Women Readers (Yitzchok Levine)
• 16. Women and Torah Scholarship (Harry Maryles)
• 17. Women Readers (Prof. Levine)

Here is another tip:

http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B5yuVo
iPPaAAMTFhMDRiOWMtMTA3MS00OWE1LTlhOTEtMTk4N2UzZTQ4OGE4&;hl=en

A psak by Rav Melamed allowing alonei Shabbat whose Torah content
constitutes a minority of the document to be thrown in the trash (or better
recycled).
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org>
>
> I recommend backyard compost heaps. Throw a layer of dirt atop your
> own sheimos. Then one only needs to bury sheimos using a more formal
> system when large books or sets of books are involved.

(Personally, I understand the anti-Zionist position more readily than
I understand Agudah's. Li nir'eh, it's obvious that the Medinah is a
significant event. I can faster understand someone attributing negative
significance than denying it altogether.)

--- that  was  what i believe  i  indicated , if  we  use the 
bilaam-iyov-yitro  example.  without  having  to choose  which  extreme is 
yitro,  the iyov's  are  going to appropriately get whacked from both 
sides... and it would be like given the eliyahu baal-hashem choice, that 
the people choose  'neither'....
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Ben Waxman wrote:
> Here is another tip:
> 
> http://docs.google.com/fileview?
> id=0B5yuVoiPPaAAMTFhMDRiOWMtMTA3MS00OWE1LTlhOTEtMTk4N2UzZTQ4OGE4&;hl=en
> 
> A psak by Rav Melamed allowing alonei Shabbat whose Torah content
> constitutes a minority of the document to be thrown in the trash

Perhaps publishers should be asked to add enough non-Torah content to
exempt their products from geniza...


> (or better recycled).

I'm surprised to see that; isn't recycled paper sometimes used for
purposes that are definitely bizayon?  One hears stories of Israelis
in the 1950s finding shemos in their toilet paper.  Of course nowadays
one would never know, because the paper is bleached, but does that
change the halachic situation?  Maybe, but maybe not.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

BTW, R' Pam told R' Matis Blum that me'ikar hadin, Torah periodicals that
are usually not kept for a later re-read, such as parashah sheets, that
don't actually contain sheim Hashem don't require burial. (RMBlum is
the author of Torah Ladaas, and was a talmid at Torah Vadaath under RAP
when he began -- thus the name.) The fact that we generally treat divrei
Torah with more respect than torn taliosos is offset by the fact that it
was never intended to be permanent. (That's an old memory, I might be
off on some details. Confirmation would be helpful.)

RDLifshitz was mesupaq.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 23rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Netzach: How does my domination
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            stifle others?

<It doesn't say whether Rav Shach actaully said Hallel along with the Tzibur. It only says he would not walk out unless they said it with a Bracha.

Intersting and quite a different repsonse than what the CI was reputed to
do. It is said about him that he said tachaunun once at a Bris that took
place on YhA so that people wouldn't think he skipped because of the
holiday.>
     In the Fifties, Ponevez did not say tachanun on 5 Iyar.  Rav Shach did it, b'farhesia.  I therefore doubt that he said hallel in 1949.
     As for the Chazon Ish, he did not say tachanun _at_ a bris.  One year,
     he was scheduled to be a sandak at three brisos, but had the minyan at
     which he davened say tachanun, because "next year, the brisos will be
     forgotten, but that we skipped tachanun on Hei Iyar will be
     remembered."  The relating of the incident, as I heard it shortly
     after his p'tira, did not include the information of whether or not he
     himself said it.
EMT  
 
____________________________________________________________
Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
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Someone asked me off-list...

Given that RYBS, wearing his head of the RCA halakhah committee hat,
wrote a teshuvah on the subject, how is there room to debate what his
position was?

Repeating the quote from RSCarmy's article (already quoted here by RYL
at the top of v27n104:
    Hallel on Yom haAtzmaut

    As Chairman of the RCA Halakha Commission, the Rav, in 1953 penned
    a responsum regarding the reading of Hallel on Yom haAtzmaut. He
    endorsed reading the mizmorei Tehillim that comprise Hallel if the
    community wanted to on the morning of Yom haAtzmaut. He strictly
    prohibited reciting a berakha on the Hallel. He also expressed
    reservations about reading these chapters at night, but did not
    advocate risking controversy over this practice. Subsequently, in
    several shiurim, he reiterated his objection to the berakha. At YU
    he was observed participating in minyanim that recited Hallel.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 23rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Netzach: How does my domination
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            stifle others?

> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 09:24:39AM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
>: Intersting and quite a different repsonse than what the CI was reputed
>: to do. It is said about him that he said tachaunun once at a Bris that
>: took place on YhA so taht people wouldn't think he skipped because of
>: the holiday.

There was a suggestion several years ago in the knesset to change YH to
rosh chodesh iyar (it didnt pass).
Had it passed would CI have skipped hallel that day to make the point (one
could differentiate between full hallel and half hallel though I believe
some say only half Hallel on YH)

BTW I received from Shlomo Pick an English translation of the
speech/article of RAL on the zionism of RYBS

-- 
Eli Turkel

From: "Zev Sero" <z...@sero.name>
> All the more reason why He couldn't allow it to happen again.  We can't
> explain why He allowed what happened in the first half of the 1940s; but
> the fact that He did makes it even more obvious why He prevented it from
> happening again in '48.  In general, why Hashem prevented a massacre
> doesn't need explaining; it's why He *allowed* one that needs explaining,
> and that is so difficult to explain.

He "allowed" the first revolt against the Romans to be quashed, as well as
the Bar Kochba revolt, the revolt in Cyprus and the one in Egypt.

To use Rav Newman's phrase, God's playbook is bigger than ours.

[Email #2 -mi]

From: "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org>
>     Having a country that works to preserve Shabbos is one thing. Having
>     one that doesn't even need to, quite something else.

>     PS: In Rav Dovid Lishitz's minyan on a year where [Monday] was both
>     an early Yom haAtzama'ut and BaHa"B, we said Tachanun, Selichos,
>     and afterward Hallel without a berakhah.

This is a very strange combo, IMO. The day is one of such joy that you can
say Hallel but you still say Tachanun? The option of not saying either
has its own logic. But why not skip Tachanun if you saying Hallel? We
skip Hallel for the most banal of reasons, days which have little or no
meaning to us (like Pesach Sheni or Purim Qatan) and yet people insist
on saying Tachanun on YA. Why?

What has to happen for those people who say Tachanun on YA to stop
saying Tachanun? Rav Lifshitz said that only half the work is done. So
when the other half is done (I am not quite sure what that means - the
state adopts Torah as its constitution, the mosiach comes, the majority
of Jews are shomer Shabbat?), then people will stop?

Ben

--- On Thu, 4/22/10, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:


BTW, R' Pam told R' Matis Blum that me'ikar hadin, Torah periodicals that
are usually not kept for a later re-read, such as parashah sheets, that
don't actually contain sheim Hashem don't require burial. (RMBlum is
the author of Torah Ladaas, and was a talmid at Torah Vadaath under RAP
when he began -- thus the name.) The fact that we generally treat divrei
Torah with more respect than torn taliosos is offset by the fact that it
was never intended to be permanent. (That's an old memory, I might be
off on some details. Confirmation would be helpful.)

RDLifshitz was mesupaq.
-----------------------------
?
As you know I am a big fan of Matis Blum.
?
I wrote about this issue on my blog a few days ago. Here is an excerpt:
?
Shaimos is the Hebrew word for names and specifically refers to the names
of God. The Torah prohibits us from erasing or in any way destroying the
names of God written in Hebrew. The Gemarah in Shavuos (35a-b) discusses
which specific names are considered the names of God such as Yud Keh Vav
Keh, Elokah, and a few others that are very familiar to Orthodox Jews.

There are some references to God that are not considered Shaimos such as HaKadosh Baruch Hu. These are not technically forbidden from erasure.

There is voluminous discussion and disagreement among Poskim about what
else constitutes Shaimos. But one thing is certain - anything that contains
one of the specific names of God must not be erased or destroyed. The
Halacha dictates that it must be buried. This is what is meant by Shaimos
today. It is material with God?s name printed or written on it ready for
proper disposal via burial.

Because the details of this Halacha are not that familiar to most of us -
it has become customary to treat all religious literature as Shaimos which
increases the volume. That is an erroneous approach. One should ask a
competent Posek about whether something they own constitutes Shaimos. But
by far the biggest contributing factor that has caused a virtual explosion
of Shaimos is the ease of copying and printing today. For example it is not
unusual to find multiple copies of the weekly Torah portion - the Parshas
HaShavuah printed on a few sheets of paper, stapled together, and
distributed to a Shul for a Bar Mitzvah. It is used only that one time and
then put into Shaimos to be disposed of properly. Which means burying it.

HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/




      
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I meant of course we skip Tachanun for the most banal of reasons.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ben Waxman" <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
We
> skip Hallel for the most banal of reasons,

I meant of course we skip Tachanun for the most banal of reasons.

Ben
-----------------------------------------
Which is a separate issue - I used to be one of those who looked for
excuses not to say tachanun, but if we look at prayer as an intimate
conversation with HKB"H, Tachanun is as intimate as I get (IIRC R'YBS had
something on it being a continuation of amidah)
KT
Joel Rich
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On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 11:03:11AM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: Which is a separate issue - I used to be one of those who looked for
: excuses not to say tachanun, but if we look at prayer as an intimate
: conversation with HKB"H, Tachanun is as intimate as I get (IIRC R'YBS
: had something on it being a continuation of amidah)

Not that I consider myself a bar pelugta or anything, but I'm not
entirely disagreeing so...

LAD, there are three basic mitzvos that make their way into the siddur:
1- Qeri'as Shema
2- Tefillah
3- Tachanunim

The first two are more obvious, but tachanunim may require some
introduction.

http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2008/01/prayers-and-requests.shtml

In *PART* (if you're interested, you really need to see the whole post):
        Also, I gave you one portion (or perhaps, "one thing, [the city
        of] Shechem") beyond that of your brothers, which I took from
        the control of the Emori -- becharbi uvqashti -- with my sword
        and with my bow.
                                        - Bereishis 48:22
    The Targum Yonasan renders "becharbi uvqashti" as "betzelosi uva'us-hi
    -- with my prayers and my requests". This is also in Bava Basra 123,
    "'Charbi' -- this is tefillah, 'qashti' -- this is baqashah [request]."
    ...
    The Vilna Gaon characterizes two kinds of prayer: tefillah and
    tachanunim. As RYBS himself notes, as does Rav Hirsch, lehit-pallel is
    in the reflective; something we do to ourselves. Teaching ourselves
    to turn to Hashem, and what things ought to be our priorities. Our
    primary tefillah was therefore organized by Anshei Keneses haGdolah
    in the sunset of the prophetic period, as a means of impressing us
    with the art of dialogue with the A-lmighty.

    Turning to our Father with the needs actually on our mind is
    called tachanunim. An ideal time for tachanunim is immediately
    after tefillah, as we find in the above-mentioned list of tannaim's
    requests. As well as tachanun. Tefillah is always in the plural,
    placing ourselves in the context of the community. Tachanunim, like
    E-lokai Netzor, can also be in the singular. Because E-lokai Netzor
    exists as a framework for what should essentially be spontaneous,
    we have a long tradition of adding various requests to it, rather
    than preserving the tanna's coinage untouched.

    Just as the tachanunim we say as part of regular davening has this
    element of a pre-written framework, of tefillah, we allso do not call
    for pure tefillah with no element of personal outpouring. We ask
    for the health of a sick friend with an insertion in "Refa'einu",
    or Hashem's help showing our children how to embrace the Torah's
    wisdom in "Atah Chonein", etc... "Whomever makes their tefillos
    fixed has not made their tefillos into tachanunim."

    This inseparability of these two types of worship might be an
    implication of the opening words of Mesilas Yesharim....

What may justify the minhag of treating tachanun so flippantly is that
any text found in the siddur is inherently only the trellis about which
we grow our prayers.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 24th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Netzach: When does domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507        taking control result in balance and harmony?

RMB wrote:
> Music is a later development. The notion of live music outside the
> context of a party was to rare for our ancestors to build a minhag
> around it one way or the other.

Aha? Sotah 48a:
R. Huna abolished singing, and a hundred geese were priced at a zuz
and a hundred se'ahs of wheat at a zuz and there was no demand for
them [even at that price];  R. Hisda came and [ordered R. Huna's edict
to be] disregarded, and a goose was required [even at the high price
of] a zuz but was not to be found.

According to Rashi, R'Huna's decree was against playing music both at
parties (which are undefined and need not have been se'udot mitzvah)
AND at home. Apparently people had music for leisurly entertainmentt
back then, too. And it was sufficiently common that it radically
impacted the demand for food, which indicates that this kind of
expensive food was eaten at discretionary parties, not weddings. Think
fancy meals inviting some friends at home, for example.
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Helping Patients Face Death, She Fought to Live
* Neuer Audio-Schi'ur, zum 91. Psalm
* Significant Recent Manuscript Finds
* Ansprache anl?sslich des G?ttesdienst in der historischen Synagoge
von Endingen
* Burgeoning Jewish Life in Central Europe
* Raising Consciousness by Dressing Babies Outrageously

On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 12:20:33AM +0200, Arie Folger wrote:
 Music is a later development. The notion of live music outside the
:> context of a party was to rare for our ancestors to build a minhag
:> around it one way or the other.

: Aha? Sotah 48a:
...
: According to Rashi, R'Huna's decree was against playing music both at
: parties (which are undefined and need not have been se'udot mitzvah)
: AND at home. Apparently people had music for leisurly entertainmentt
: back then, too. And it was sufficiently common that it radically
: impacted the demand for food, which indicates that this kind of
: expensive food was eaten at discretionary parties, not weddings. Think
: fancy meals inviting some friends at home, for example.

Chamber music.

But I would think you're making a distinction I wouldn't. Rashi is
describing having people over for a dinner party. A fancy meal with a
dozen guests at home and music is lehalakhah a party. No?

Gut Voch!
-Micha

In his book A World in Ruins Hermann Schwab writes on page 181

  "A weatherworn gravestone at Worms tells of the harmonious voice of 
a woman reader. In the early Middle Ages, women were to be found at 
the Reader's desk in synagogues which were separated from the men's 
synagogues."

Does anyone know anything about this? I have never heard of this.


Yitzchok Levine 
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One of the real hot-button issues in Orthodoxy today was precipitated
by Rabbi Avi Weiss when he ordained the first Orthtodox female rabbi
(rabba). He was immediately condemned by Agudah and the RCA followed up
by threatening to expell him from membership.

Rabbi Weiss back peddaled -- but the controversy does not end there. In
fact I think this is only the begining. This issue is currently being
debated at an RCA conference. I commented on my blog about this on
Friday. Today I added another prespective based on the memoirs of
the Netziv's nephew, R' Baruch HaLevi Epstein -- about female Torah
scholarship. It included a repremand from 14th century Sefer urguing the
Gedolei Yiroel of that time to encourge high caliber Torah study by women.

Here is an excerpt: 

* The Yerushalmi in Chagiga says that the daughter of Elisha ben Avuyah
  refuted the atrguments of R' Yehudah HaNasi and forced him to admit
  his mistake.

* Rudel, the daughter of Mahari Isserlin was know to study Toraah with
  as much diligence as men.

* One of the Rishonim, R. Eliezer of Mainz praises his wife using the
  words from Mishlei -- Piah Pascha B'Chachma -- she is fluent in all
  the Halachos of Issur V'Heter and on Shabbos she sits and expounds...

* The Tashbatz (3-78) cites an answer to question on Tosephos in the
  name of a certain Rebbetzin.

* A certain Rosh HaYeshiva in Baghdad, Rav Shmuel HaLevi had an only
  daughter who was fuent in Chumash and Gemarah and gave Shiurim to men
  behind a window where they could not see her.

* The Marshal cites a similar example about his grandmother who directed
  a Yeshiva for many years giving Shiurim to advanced students from
  behind a Mechitza.

* In his own generation there was a woman renowned for her wisdom, the
  sister of Rav Eliyahu Dovid Rabinowitz Teomim of Jerusalem who solved
  a problem with respect to the permisibility of fasting on Bahab (a
  series of days -- (Monday, Thursday, and the following Monday -- when
  one can fast following a Yom Tov as a form of Teshuva for possible
  infractions of Halacha on those days due to excessive frivolity)
  when it occurs on Pesach Sheni.
 
HM

At 11:40 AM 4/26/2010, Zev Sero  wrote:

>T6...@aol.com wrote:
>
>>I've never heard of "women's synagogues" -- he may be talking about 
>>the ladies' section of the shul.
>
>With your gerrer background you're probably aware that in gerrer shuls
>the women's "section" is a separate room with a small opening near the
>ceiling communicating with the men's shul.  It seems perfectly fair to
>call that a "beis knesses shel nushim".

First of all, I posted this to Avodah, because I felt it dealt with 
Halacha.  However, since responses to my post have appeared on 
Areivim, I will also reply on Areivim.

Hermann Schwab was most definitely not talking about "a separate room 
with a small opening" when he wrote about women's synagogues.

Dr, Josh Backon sent me the following:

Women 700-800 years ago had their own shuls (see: KOL BO Hilchot

Tisha B'Av Siman 62; Terumat haDeshen Siman 353; Teshuvot Mahari

Weil Siman 32; MAHARIL Minhagim p. 331; MaHaram MiRottenberg

Tshuvot U'Psakim Chelek Alef Siman 557) and more recently in pre-war

Europe had the *zogerke* who lead tefillot for women.  See also: CHID"A

in Maagal Tov p. 104.

Famous women "chazzaniyot" included Dulca the wife of the Rokeach

(R. Elazar from Vermeyza) who wrote a famous dirge on her gravestone;

Richenza who died al kiddush Hashem in Nuremberg in 1298; Orania

from Vermeyza.

By the 15th century, the women sat in the Ezrat Nashim of the men's shul but

had their own leader (Ba'alat ha'tefilla) [see book by Grossman and Haut

"Women and the Synagogue" JPS, 1992].




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