Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 130

Wed, 16 Jun 2010

• 1. Re: Churva shul update (from areivim) (Saul Mashbaum)
• 2. Re: Churva shul update (from areivim) (Gershon Dubin)
• 3. ethics outside of Torah (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Aseres haShevatim (Micha Berger)
• 5. BP Oil and Moshiach (Michael Feldstein)
• 6. ethic outside of halacha (Jonathan Baker)
• 7. Korach Question (Richard Wolberg)
• 8. Making Ice Cream on Shabbat (Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer)
• 9. Re: Making Ice Cream on Shabbat (Micha Berger)
• 10. Nequdas haBechirah and Consciousness (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Making Ice Cream on Shabbat (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Making Ice Cream on Shabbat (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Making Ice Cream on Shabbat (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 14. Kohain question (Rich, Joel)
• 15. Possibly the best speech I have ever heard! (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 16. Re: Possibly the best speech I have ever heard! (Yitzchak Schaffer)
• 17. Re: Possibly the best speech I have ever heard! (Micha Berger)

On areivim, after saying I was in the newly rebuilt Churva shul in the Old
City I

cited the following halacha:


Haroeh batei Yisrael b'yishuvan omer "Baruch... matziv gvul almana". See OCh
224:10, and MB there ot 14, who quotes the Rif that "batei Yisrael" refers
to batei knesset.


RGD responded

 > Don't leave us hanging:  did you make the beracha?  Beshem umalchus?

I was tempted to respond (Jewishly :)) why not? What do you see in the
source cited,
or any other source, that would make you doubt that one should make this
bracha
under the circumstanced I described ?

However, I am aware that such a response begs the question. There is a
strong sense about certain brachot, despite the obligation to say them being
 clearly delineated in SA OCh, that "the SA and poskim can say whatever they
want. It doesn't matter. We simply don't say these brachot, certainly
not b'shem
umalchut".

Indeed the MB does say something like this about some of the "rare, unusual"
brachot, and the Rama says that a certain bracha  instituted by chazal is
not now said. However,  when the poskim do not say our practice is not to
say a certain bracha, we may assume
by implication that they felt it *should* be said.

Part of the problem is that some the obligation to say certain brachot seems
to be a subjective feeling, a concept some are uncomfortable with; it seems,
if not antinomian,
at least non-nomian. Chazal instituted a bracha, "oseh maase b'reishit"  on
"natural wonders",  a concept difficult to define precisely. Rivers are
mentioned as being in this category; I find it difficult to imagine getting
so excited about the Hudson River that it would inspire in me a need to make
a bracha on it. OTOH I do think the stalactite cave near Beit Shemesh is so
stunning does "deserve" a bracha" as a natural wonder . Where does one draw
the line? If we can't define the chiyyuv precisely, some feel the bracha is
better off not being said, explicit unequivocal  statements in the SA
notwithstanding.

I find the following autobiographical passage by RYBS, quoted in "The Rav"
by R.Aharon Rakefet-Rothkoff, Vol II, p 165-6, relevant to this topic

"I remember how enthused I was the first time I saw the Baltic Sea. I was
born in Russia, and never saw a major body of water in my youth. It was a
beautiful sunny day in the month of Iyyar, after Pesach, when I went with a
cousin to the Baltic Sea in Danzig [Gdansk, Poland].

I remember that the water was blue, deeply blue. From afar it looked like a
blue forest. It resembled the aboriginal forests near Pruzhanam where I was
born. When I came close and realized it was the Baltic Sea, I was
overwhelmed by its beauty. Spontaneously, I began to recite the Psalm [104]
"Borchi Nafshi". I did not plan to do this, but the words flowed from my
lips "O lord, my God, You are very great; You are clothed with glory  and
majesty" "There is the sea, vast and wide" It was a religious reaction to
viewing the majesty of God's creation. When I recited the brocho upon seeing
the sea, I did so with emotion and deep feeling. I deeply experienced the
words of the brocho "oseh maase b'reishis'. Not all the brochos I make are
made with such concentration. It was more than simply a brocho, it was an
encounter with the creator. I felt that the Shechinah was hidden in the
darkness and vastness of the sea. The experience was unique and
unforgettable; the brocho welled out of me.
Since then, I have seen the ocean many times. I still recite the brocho if
thirty days have elapsed since I last saw it. Nevertheless, since that first
time, it has become a routine blessing, a kalte, misnagdishe brocho."

Saul Mashbaum
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From: Saul Mashbaum saul.mashb...@gmail.com

Certainly there is a subjective component;  you make not make the beracha on the Hudson, but would you make it on Niagara Falls? I certainly would and do.

To extend this to the beracha at hand:	you might not "feel like" making
the beracha matziv gevul almana on your local shul that had a fire and
rebuilt, but clearly the Churva shul is in a class by itself.
So, did you make the beracha (I would and IY"H will at the next opportunity)?
 
Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com


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<<So the question becomes how do we define "outside of halakhah". Are we
asking about ethics we would know even before the Torah was given? Do
we mean values relayed in aggadita that we must follow even though they
aren't amenable to codification as halakhah? Both?>>

We all agree that any code of law including SA cannot account for every
conceivable happening. Hence, one has to decide on occasion on things that
are not in SA. I would not use the phrase prohibited but rather
"correct behavior".
As I previously gave the example of RMF insisting on paying for the
transportation
of a talmid. RMF did not say he was required rather he thought that was the
right thing to do.
This has to based on some generally accepted societal attitudes.

I note that some achronim actually use this for psak. Their is
controversy about the
extent of patent/copyright law in halacha. Some achronim state that it
is obvious that an
inventor or writer needs some protection. Since the gentiles have
invented copyright laws
iy is inconceivable that it should not also apply within halacha.
Of course, as usual, other poskim disagree into turning this philosophy into a
halachic psak

-- 
Eli Turkel

I wrote a blog entry
http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2010/06/the-time-of-the-ivrim.shtml about how
our settling Azza is inherently tied to the notion of Ivri, and sticking
to the truth even if it puts you opposite the rest of the world. And
thus, current events are part of a larger historical and metaphysical
picture. Along the way, I noted:

    There are two things odd about the south-west corner of the
    map. First, the Gaza Strip is not included, and second, the tribe
    of Shim'on lives in an island within Yehudah's land.

    These two are connected. Shim'on never succeeded in conquering its
    promised portion of Israel, and therefore settled within an empty
    part of the Judean desert. ...

(On the post's main point -- Dan doesn't settle northern Azza either.
Both Shim'on and Shimshon a/k/a Bedan the shofeit from sheivet Dan
have problems with assimilationism and intermarriage -- Kozbi [parashas
Pinechas] and Delilah, respectively. OTOH, the only time we as a nation
are called Ivrim in Tanakh is in seifer Shemu'el, by the Pelishtim living
in... you guessed it -- Azza.)

In response, I was asked -- well then how did Shim'on end up exiled and
lost with the aseres hashevatim? Did Ashur penetrate Yehudah and manage
to exile the Shim'on settlement in their midst?

To add to his question, the same could be asked of Epharim and Menasheh.
They join Malkhus Yehudah during Oded haNavi's campaign against idols,
during the reign of Asa Melekh Yehudah (Divrei haYamim II 15:9).

One might be tempted to explain that some of the aseres hashevatim were
exiled by Ashur and assimilated among nachriim, but others assimilated
into Yehudah. Thus 10 shevatim were lost. In which case, Binyamin was
only not counted because they retained separate identity long enough
for Mordechai to know he was an Ish Yemini? And besides, the Tosefta
(Sanhedrin 13:1) says "aseres hashevatim ein lahem cheileq le'olam haba
ve'einan chayin le'lam"! Now if all Shim'on did to get lost from history
is assimilate into Yehudah, why would they be included along with Malkhus
Yisrael for such a harsh judgment? And why would Benei Yoseif -- who were
baalei teshuvah and left Israelite paganism to fully embrace Judaism --
be included?

Rabbi Aqiva (Mishnah Sanhedrin 10:3) says "aseres hashevatim einan asidin
lachazor". R' Eliezer disagrees. But if the shevatim of Shim'on, Ephraim
and Menasheh were "lost" among Yehudah, then wouldn't they (for all I
know I should say "we") return when Yehudah does?

I replied with an "I don't know". Thoughts?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
mi...@aishdas.org        I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org   I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabindranath Tagore

Check Sanhedrin, Daf Tzadi Ches, Amud Alef, on the reference to oil and
Moshiach.

-- 
Michael Feldstein
Stamford, CT
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RZS:

> One need only hear older yidden pronounce the words "pyanneh" and
> "teyatter" to understand the disdain that such seemingly pareve things
> evoked in that era.  Today, though, a cigar is just a cigar, and a
> piano is just a machine for making music.

I'm not sure what you mean.  My father's parents prounced the words "pyanneh"
and "teyatter", but they played piano (and clarinet and saxophone), in the
theatre (both here and in Russia).  It's just the way Russian Jews pronounced
them.

My grandfather played saxophone in the Philharmonic and at BF Keith's Jefferson
Theatre on East 14th St, around WWI.  My grandmother played piano in silent
movie theatres in Russia.  They came here in 1914.

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjba...@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

If Korach questioned Moshe as to the authenticity of the Torah, at what point was the Torah already revealed?
In other words, the parasha Korach is part of the Torah.
Did Korach know that?  If so, he would know his fate.  If not, what part of the Torah was he claiming Moshe wrote on his own?
Also, wasn't Korach present at Har Sinai?  Didn't all the people hear/and or see the actual voice of HaShem for the first 2 Commandments?
So how could Korach, after witnessing this, deny it?  

Has anyone seen a Halakhic discussion about making Ice cream on Shabbat. 
There is something known as an ice Cream ball 
[http://icecreamrevolution.com/; video: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4t3SWKYWCE&;NR=1].  In one compartment you 
add ice and rock salt; in the other you add sugar, cream, and vanilla.  Then 
you shake for about 10 minutes and the mix freezes during the agitation to 
give a pint of ice cream.
--------------------------------
Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900, ISRAEL
E-mail: Fri...@mail.biu.ac.il

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 03:01:27PM +0300, Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer wrote:
> Has anyone seen a Halakhic discussion about making Ice cream on Shabbat.  
> There is something known as an ice Cream ball  
> [http://icecreamrevolution.com/; video:  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4t3SWKYWCE&;NR=1].  In one compartment you 
> add ice and rock salt; in the other you add sugar, cream, and vanilla.  
> Then you shake for about 10 minutes and the mix freezes during the 
> agitation to give a pint of ice cream.

RSZA (quoted in Shemiras Shabbos keHilkhasah 10 fn 20) holds that one may
make ice cream on Shabbos. He makes a chiluq between ice cream and ice,
which some hold is nolad, and the SSK only allows when there is sufficient
need (eg for company, not for oneself). The Smaq assurs melting fat on
Shabbos because of the change from solid to liquid. RSZA holds that this
is because no one uses fat as a solid. Thus, the solid vs the liquid are
different things WRT nolad. Ice and water are both consumed, but are
used very differently. Ice cream, and cream are both edible as deserts,
so RSZA does not consider the transformation to be nolad.

Those shitos that permit ice should have no problem here either, I would
think. (Machloqes is discussed in 10:4 and fn 14.)

I recall from somewhere a shinui sheim issue, that would also apply to ice
and not ice cream. This magid shiur, whomever he was, argued that making
ice is a problem because "water" became "ice" (in whatever language
is local). However, juice ices are still refered to as "juice pops",
"orange [juice] ices", "frozon orange juice", etc... The shinui sheim
is less complete. He therefore excluded juice pops from the discussion
of nolad and ice.

Which would also apply in our case in Anglo countries, as ice cream
still contians the word cream. However, the question is being posted
by RAAF in Ramat Gan, where the shinui sheim to "gelidah" could be
an issue.

Searching for a maqor for applying shinui sheim to this situation was
beyond my Bar Ilan CD abilities, and Google hits seemed to only hit
unsourced previous statements by myself.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy,
mi...@aishdas.org        if only because it offers us the opportunity of
http://www.aishdas.org   self-fulfilling prophecy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Arthur C. Clarke

One of REED's more famous points in MmE is that of the nequdas habechirah.
    When two armies are locked in battle, the place where the struggle
    takes place is called the front line. This line is drawn at the
    place where the two forces meet. On either side, there is territory
    that belongs to that side and is thus not the location of battle. The
    front line moves and changes, but battle, generally speaking, occurs
    only where the two sides meet. Our moral choices can be thought of
    in a similar way. There are decisions that we have made in our lives
    so many times that they are no longer decisions. It is obvious to us
    that we will respond in particular ways to particular events. Those
    choices are within our territory. There are also choices we have never
    had to make and likely will never have to make. They are beyond the
    realm of our experience. They are firmly out of our territory. The
    place where these territories meet is the place of bechirah. On
    the spectrum of what we know to be ethical and what we know to be
    unethical, we make choices only at the nequdas habechirah. This is
    the point where our values come into conflict and thus the choices
    are not obvious. Each individual's nequdas habechirah is unique, and
    it moves as we grow and change. By recognizing the nequdas habechirah
    in our lives, we are able to set our sights on expanding our moral
    territory and thus becoming better people.

Notice that in it R' Dessler is identifying bechirah with *conscious*
choice. I therefore found this blog entry interesting. (The Conscious
Entities blog is a roughly-monthly essay on philosophy and the various
sciences -- neurology, psychology, etc... -- of consciousness.)

See http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=546 "Unconscious Free Will".
The author presumes Free Will is a real thing, not an illusion we
live under. The foil he tends to use is the research of Benjamin Libet
<http://www.consciousentities.com/libet.htm>, which appears to prove
that decisions are made -- the electrons are already moving up the nerves
that will eventually control your arm before we are conscious of them.

Peter (last name unknown), CE's author, offers a different interpretation
of that experiment's results at
<http://www.consciousentities.com/libet.htm>.
He suggests that the delay could be that between conscious decisionmaking,
and regitering the fact that one was aware of making a decision -- awareness
of awareness of the decision might well be 350 - 500 milliseconds after
the an awarely made decision.

Then there is subsequent research in
http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=64 and
http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=233 . The latter is 2009 data that
indicates that the original results might not be all that conclusive
anyway.

In this most recent entry, Peter wonders whether identifying Free Will
with a consciously made decision is correct to begin with.

My own take on it was that bechirah must be identified with self-awareness,
both of which are functions of the ruach memalela. See
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2006/12/ruach-memalela.shtml> for my development
of that idea.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
mi...@aishdas.org        heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org   Love is not two who look at each other,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      It is two who look in the same direction.

Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer wrote:
> Has anyone seen a Halakhic discussion about making Ice cream on Shabbat. 
> There is something known as an ice Cream ball 
> [http://icecreamrevolution.com/; video: 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4t3SWKYWCE&;NR=1].  In one compartment 
> you add ice and rock salt; in the other you add sugar, cream, and 
> vanilla.  Then you shake for about 10 minutes and the mix freezes during 
> the agitation to give a pint of ice cream.

How do you distinguish this from megaben?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 10:33:23AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> How do you distinguish this from megaben?

Isn't a fundamental part of megavein that you're giving the cheese
a shape?

Mechabeitz is assur mishum boreir, and as Rashi on Shabbos 95a writes,
this is because of the separation of the whey from the curds occurs
before megavein. Alternatively, Rashi on Pesachim 65a discusses the
boreir of just creating curds by separating out the parts of milk.

Megavein is after mechabeitz, so you already have either something like
cottage chees (Rashi Pesachim) or farmer cheese (Rashi Shabbos). Here we
are turning it into a wheel of cheese so that it ages as desired. But
I thought the boneh issue raised WRT megavein was because of the shape,
not because you're starting a long process of hardening.

But even if I'm mistaken, there is a more solidly-made chiluq. (Yes, I
confess that pun is intended.)

R' Issur Zalman Meltzer (Even haAzel on Hil' Shabbos 10:17)
explains the boneh element of megavein in terms of assembling from
pieces. (Correspondingly, in 10:2 he argues that crating cheese is NOT
soseir only because we aren't reducing it back to hte original curds.)

You don't make ice cream by making little ice cream pieces and putting
them together. One bit freezes solid, or even if two or three, and then
they grow in size to encompass all of the liquid.

It therefore seems more like freezing water, which I haven't seen
described as a boneh issue.


(The melakhos I associated with the parts of making cheese are from
Shabbos 95a, R' Eliezer. But why not hachanah too? Wouldn't anyone
working on cheese necessarily be performing hachanah for something that
won't be ready for weeks, months, even years?)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
mi...@aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter

R' MB: 
Those shitos that permit ice should have no problem here either, I would
think. (Machloqes is discussed in 10:4 and fn 14.)
-----------------------


words) they would make ice all the time - they would put cups of water on
the windowsill on Friday night, and take it back in after it was frozen
Shabbos morning.

KT,
MYG

The medrash darshens the pasuk - "Vhakohain hagadol me'echav asher yutzak
al rosho shemen hamishcha umilei et yado llbosh et habigadim et rosho lo
yifra..."  as follows-:
Vhakohain hagadol me'echav  - zeh kohain gadol
asher yutzak al rosho shemen hamishcha - zeh mashuach milchama
umilei et yado llbosh et habigadim - zeh mrubah bgadim



Questions:
1. Before the shemen hamishcha was hidden, was there ever a kohain gadol
who was "installed" by being mrubeh bgadim?  If not, was this method
transmitted as a fail safe bdieved?

2.AIUI there is no other hint that there was a mashuach milchama  (i.e.
that required anointing) - given the "holiness" of the shemen hamishcha,
any guess why this additional recipient isn't mentioned outright (the only
mention is a drasha that a plain kohain can't do the speech by a comparison
to the shotrim who must be appointed

3.once the shemen was hidden, was there a mashuach milchama?

KT\Joel Rich
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Thank you.

http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/745961/Rab
bi_Shlomo_Einhorn/The_Last_Lecture

Rabbi Shlomo Einhorn http://www.yutorah.org/browse/browse.cfm#speaker=80585
The Last Lecture
Given On: Thursday June 10, 2010
Given at: YU High School for Boys
This talk was given as Rabbi Einhorn's Last Lecture at MTA High School.
It was given in Lamport Auditorium to the entire student body and faculty.

On 6/16/2010 11:49, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
> http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/
> 745961/Rabbi_Shlomo_Einhorn/The_Last_Lecture
>
> This talk was given as Rabbi Einhorn's Last Lecture at MTA High School.

What's it about, or is the mystery part of the appeal?

-- 
Yitzchak Schaffer
Systems Manager
Touro College Libraries
33 West 23rd Street
New York, NY 10010
Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230
Fax (212) 627-3197
Email yitzchak.schaf...@tourolib.org

Access Problems? Contact systems.libr...@touro.edu

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 02:57:44PM -0400, Yitzchak Schaffer wrote:
> On 6/16/2010 11:49, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
>> http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lect
>> ure.cfm/745961/Rabbi_Shlomo_Einhorn/The_Last_Lecture

>> This talk was given as Rabbi Einhorn's Last Lecture at MTA High School.

> What's it about, or is the mystery part of the appeal?

It's a mussar shmuess. IMHO central topics are
    not settling to be just okay,
    it's late, but there is still time
    labels are meaningless, you don't need to live to impress others,
        be a good Jew based on who you really are
    seek out those greater than you to learn from -- know who your gedolim
        are
    always take the one step, and someday you'll be making that siyum on
        gantz shas or other great accomplishment


Points buttressed with pesuqim and stories.

It's really more in the telling than in what I convey in rashei pesaqim.
As I said, it's shmuess, not a shiur.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Rescue me from the desire to win every
mi...@aishdas.org        argument and to always be right.
http://www.aishdas.org              - Rav Nassan of Breslav
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   Likutei Tefilos 94:964


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