Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 150

Mon, 26 Jul 2010

• 1. Re: kosher cabbage (Ben Waxman)
• 2. kosher cabbage (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: kosher cabbage (T6...@aol.com)
• 4. zecher lechurban (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: zecher lechurban (Micha Berger)
• 6. buying Israeli produce (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: zecher lechurban (Ben Waxman)
• 8. Re: buying Israeli produce (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: buying Israeli produce (Ben Waxman)
• 10. Re: buying Israeli produce (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: The Gaon's Theorem (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Benching at a wedding (Danny Schoemann)
• 13. Re: Rishonim and Chazal (was One Opinion) (Zvi Lampel)

On the other hand, if what you are saying is correct, then there is not even one ounce of trouble when buying Israeli produce.

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Prof. Levine 



  Given this, I fail to see that there is any "special mitzva" attached to
  buying Israeli produce.  Furthermore, one is not avoiding doing a mitzvah
  by not purchasing them. 
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<<To assist Prof. Levine, who hasn't had the opportunity and others who have
not yet taken Terumot U'Maa'serot, here is a written instruction guide:

http://www.toraland.org.il/web/project/project.asp?codeClient=1555&;codeSubWe
b=0&id=13248


It is of course in Hebrew.>>

Some of this assumes you belong to the organization. In general for those living
in EY it is highly recommended that one join one of several organizations that
put aside coins that greatlt simplify the process of taking terumot
and maaserot.

I note that this particular organization says to give the maaser
rishon to a levi.
I am all in favor of this as I am a levi but to the best of my knowledge this is
not usually done.

A major problem is what to do with maaser ani in the 3rd and 6th year.
Try finding a poor person to give a part of an apple not to speak
about defining a
poor person who is eligible.

There are some complicated schemes involving advanced loans but that
becomes more complicated.


-- 
Eli Turkel

From: "Prof. Levine" _Larry.Levine@stevens.edu_ 
(mailto:Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu) 

>>>   The conclusions at  the end of the article at  
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/rmjBroydeTerumah.pdf that Chana  
Luntz referred us to really sum up this issue. ...
 

.... (f) For the year 5754 (1993-1994) there might be no  obligation
because it is a shemita year.




>>>>
Produce grown in a shmittah  year raises a host of other questions,  
besides terumos uma'asros, giving greater force to the statement quoted in Rav  
Schwab's name, "If you buy a pound of Israeli tomatoes you buy a pound of  
problems."  (Something like that.)  
 
The farmer who grew the produce maybe should not have done so, and there is 
 then a question of whether the produce may be eaten.  And if it may be  
eaten, does it have kedushas shevi'is, necessitating extra care and knowledge 
in  the disposal of waste?  
 
I sort of feel the way Prof Levine does, that I lack the knowledge and  
experience to handle Israeli fruits and vegetables, so on the rare occasion 
that  I see Israeli oranges or peppers in the supermarket, I avoid buying them. 
  However, I try to buy Israeli goods whenever I can, and almost all canned 
and  packaged products from Israel do have good hechsherim.
 


--Toby Katz
==========




--------------------  




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<<I've never seen it in a hotel and have rarely seen  it in chu'l, but in E'Y
almost every charedi apartment has an unpainted  rectangle over the front
door.>>

My understanding is that it is questionable whether over the front door
and not opposite the front door is sufficient.

BTW over my front door I have a wonderful large scale photograph of the kotel
taken by my brother-in-law on hoshana raba night as dawn breaks and the
kotel area is fully filled. (I have an electronic copy for anyone interested)

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 02:50:32PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: BTW over my front door I have a wonderful large scale photograph of the kotel
: taken by my brother-in-law on hoshana raba night as dawn breaks and the
: kotel area is fully filled. (I have an electronic copy for anyone interested)

I don't think that qualifies for the original minhag (taqanah?). Part
of the idea idea is not to complete one's own home while the Bayis
remains unbuilt. Not "just" la'alos es Y-m al rosh simchasi.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

<<Given this, I fail to see that there is any "special mitzva" attached
to buying Israeli produce.  Furthermore, one is not avoiding doing a
mitzvah by not purchasing them.>>

On a slightly different topc RSZA opposed the idea of avoiding shemitta problems
by buying fruits and vegetables imported into EY. He indeed felt there
was a mitzva
to observe shmitta even though it is rabbinic and one should not seek to avoid
keeping the mitzvah. This is in addition to the motzvah of helping those farmers
that keep shemitta and sell through some otzer bet din.
I would imagine that he would say the same for terumot and maaserot even though
they are rabbinic.

I agree that he was talking about those living in EY and that there is
no need for
someone outside of EY to look for Israeli produce to take out terumot
and maaserot.


-- 
Eli Turkel

Although this seems to be a more and more common minhag - that the area left
l'zecher is done in a decorative way.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- > I don't think that qualifies for the original
minhag (taqanah?). Part
> of the idea idea is not to complete one's own home while the Bayis
> remains unbuilt. Not "just" la'alos es Y-m al rosh simchasi.

<<Given this, I fail to see that there is any "special mitzva"
attached to buying Israeli produce.  Furthermore, one is not avoiding doing
a mitzvah by not purchasing them.>>

On a slightly different topc RSZA opposed the idea of avoiding shemitta
problems by buying fruits and vegetables imported into EY. He indeed felt
there was a mitzva to observe shmitta even though it is rabbinic and one
should not seek to avoid keeping the mitzvah. This is in addition to the
motzvah of helping those farmers that keep shemitta and sell through some
otzer bet din.
I would imagine that he would say the same for terumot and maaserot even though they are rabbinic.
-----------------------------------------------------------



KT
Joel Rich
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This is actually an interesting question (to me at least). When do we avoid
problems (for example not accepting gerim since we don't want to break the
rules of treating a ger) and when do we delve into the halachic "swamp" (for
example eating hot food on Shabbat and not doing the simple thing of eating
cold food?)

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eli Turkel" <elitur...@gmail.com>
>
> On a slightly different topc RSZA opposed the idea of avoiding shemitta
problems
> by buying fruits and vegetables imported into EY. He indeed felt there
> was a mitzva
> to observe shmitta even though it is rabbinic and one should not seek to
avoid
> keeping the mitzvah. .org

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 03:59:39PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
: This is actually an interesting question (to me at least). When do we avoid
: problems (for example not accepting gerim since we don't want to break the
: rules of treating a ger) and when do we delve into the halachic "swamp" (for
: example eating hot food on Shabbat and not doing the simple thing of eating
: cold food?)

RRW asked a related question last October at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol26/v26n199.shtml#05>:
    Avraham spends the entire Chol haMoed avoiding the CHIYYUV of eating in
    the Sukkah. Instead of needing to find a sukkah, he adjusts his diet to
    eat foods that do not trigger an obligation. He has water, fruit juice,
    a hard boiled egg, but nothing to kovei'a any s'uda

    Yitzchak religiously washes twice a day and makes hammotzi and benches.
    He aims to get in 14 s'udos mamash over the course of sukkos over the
    course of the Chag

    But Yitzchak also eats several signifcant portions of food outside the
    sukkah in addition to these 14 times. Some of them would be mamash
    k'vias s'uda, but maybe he has a heter when traveling or at the office.

    Haskafically Avraham has srcupulously avoided a bittul aseh, but makes
    no brachah on hol Hamoed

RAMiller, RJMeisner and I replied. See
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?sect
ion=H#HASHKAFA%20QUESTION%20ON%20SUKKAH%20EATING>
reduced to <http://bit.ly/9CVXCy>.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is a glorious thing to be indifferent to
mi...@aishdas.org        suffering, but only to one's own suffering.
http://www.aishdas.org                 -Robert Lynd, writer (1879-1949)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 09:06:52AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Until I came across this I was not aware that there was something called 
> the Gaon's Theorem.

There is no 

> I do not understand why the Gaon's sefer Ayil Meshulash is not used as a 
> mathematics text during the last year of math in Yeshiva High Schools.  
> Perhaps it is because it would be most difficult to find someone who 
> could teach it. >:-} YL

It's a remedial geometry textbook by today's standards; most HS geometry
curricula go much futher. The point of Ayil Meshilash was to introduce
bachurim to geometry, not to be some major breakthrough.

You can judge for yourself. See <http://www.hebrewbooks.org/20713>.

Also, I can not find a Cramer's Theorem or Kramer's Theorem in
the mathematics of inifinities. In fact, the whole concept of doing math
with infinities is generally accredited to Georg Cantor, in the papers
her wrote between 1874-1884 -- a century after the Gra.

I found Cramer's Rule in linear algebra (already discussed). Which had
some false positives because there is discussion of how to extend it
to an infinite number of dimensions. Still, not the Gra.
Cramer's Theorem in statistics, by Harald Cramer (20th cent, Sweden)
Cramer's Conjecture about primes, also by Haral Cramer.
Cramer's Theory in Quantum Mechanics.
And lots of references to TV economist's Jim Cramer's theories, but with
a show titled "Mad Money" you know that he's looking to stir up interest.

I have to agree that this whole thing appears to be an urban legend.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

R' Benjamin Shaw asked:

> When I go to a wedding I often want to leave before the official benching has started.
> I see other benching without organizing a Ziman. Is this correct or should a Ziman be created?

It's better to bench with a zimun - see below.

The KSA in 149:7 mentions that it's OK to break up into smaller Zimun
groups [of 10, I assume] and not wait for the "Big Benching" - though
it would seem that each group should say the 7-Brachot! (with a Kos?
he doesn't say. Never seen this done.)

> Can one wash and not have intention to be included in the Zimun so they can leave early?

In addition to RMB's answer, in the KSA 45:15 we find cases where you
can eat together and not bench together.

If the 3rd fellow arrived after the first 2 started eating, and
finishes before they finish, he MAY bench without a zimun. Though it's
a Mitzva to wait for the Zimun.

Furthermore, even if he planned on eating together from the start, and
then worries about a [monetary] loss or some other "emergency beyond
his control [Ownes]" he may bench by himself.

But if nothing is urgent he should be machmir and wait for the Zimun.

> Please included references to your answers....
Always. :-)

Trivia of the day: The KSA says in 149:1 that one should not pour the
2nd Kos until after benching. (Never seen it done this way.)

- Danny, on round 14 of the Kitzur SA

Re: Rishonim and Chazal (was One Opinion)

I chose the five-year old subject line above because this post relates 
directly to the topic discussed under it. The subject is the extent of 
the Ramban's deference to Chazal, specifically regarding the nature of 
the rainbow.

The Ramban in his Torah commentary constantly defers to Chazal and 
severely criticizes others when they do not. (One must bear in mind the 
issue of the Ramban identifying a Chazal as the result of a drash rather 
than peshat, but for the purposes of this post, let's put that aside.) 
One sometimes hears the claim that the Ramban himself however, differed 
with Chazal based upon science, concerning Noach's rainbow: "We see from 
the mishnah in Ahvos (5:6) that Chazal viewed the rainbow as a 
miraculous phenomenon that came into existence after the Flood. Ramban, 
however, says that the scientists say that it is natural and we are 
forced to accept their words. Thus Ramban rejected the view of 
Chazal--all because of scientific data!"

I have written an essay challenging this. The fact is, the Ramban (as 
well as the Ibn Ezra before, and Rav Saadia Gaon even previously) has a 
Midrashic source for his position. Please follow this link.


file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/BOBBY/My%20Documents/The%20Ramban,%20Chazal%20and%20The%20Rainbow.htm 
<cid:part1.07000904.09070...@gmail.com>


What follows are some key points:

A. The /Radak /cites a passage in /Breishis Rabbah /that says

(a) the rainbow existed in actuality (not just potentially) since 
Creation, and

(b) _the reason for saying so is that Hashem never changes nature after 
Creation._ As the Rambam expounds in his writings, while Hashem does 
indeed enact short-lived aberrations in nature (implanted in latent form 
at Creation), He does not create new entities that thereon remain in 
existence forever.

Evidently, although this /Breishis Rabbah/ passage is no longer extant, 
not only the Radak, but also Rav Saadia Gaon, the Ibn Ezra and the 
Ramban knew of this passage, and knew therefore that: Even if the Ramban 
understood the mishnah as the Rambam did (which is not necessarily so), 
that the author of the /Ahvos mishnah/ held that the ten things in his 
list were all miraculous phenomena that did not materialize until long 
after Creation ,


(a) Chazal did not have a single viewpoint on the matter, which left it 
open to analysis (between the viewpoints offered) for an original 
suggestion or, better yet, as the Rambam explains,

(b) Chazal's principle that "the world follows its natural course," 
based upon the /posuk, "/There is nothing new under the sun," is so 
over-arching that it outweighs the opposing /shitta/ implied in the 
/Ahvos/ /mishnah/.

B*. *The authorities before the Ramban base their discussion on the 
intended tense of the word "Nassassi." The Ramban does so as well, and 
also adds that the expression "My" rainbow indicates that rainbows 
existed before the Flood. It is simply untrue that the "Ramban rejected 
the view of Chazal--all because of scientific data!"

C. The Ramban, like the Ibn Ezra, had a skeptical view of Greek "proofs" 
that indicate ideas contrary to those understood through the mesorah. 
His remark, "we are forced to agree to the Greek scholars that the 
rainbow is caused by the sun's effect on the air [and is therefore a 
natural phenomenon], must be taken in its context. It is a response to 
the Ibn Ezra's remark: "If we were believers in the words of the Greek 
scholars, that rainbows are the natural result of the sun's rays, one 
may say that Hashem strengthened the sun's light after the Flood." The 
Ramban is responding that although we normally do not give credence to 
the Greek's "proofs," his own observations of the sun's effect on water 
in a glass, and the thorough reading of the entire posuk, forces him in 
this case to side with them. He is not saying that science forced him to 
interpret the Torah differently than Chazal took it.


Zvi Lampel

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