Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 157

Thu, 05 Aug 2010

• 1. Re: anti-meat rhetoric "according to Judaism" (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 2. Reb Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz on RSRH's 19 Letters (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Transgendering and Halachah (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: [Areivim] Meet the "rabbi" (Harry Maryles)
• 5. Re: davening outdoors (Danny Schoemann)
• 6. Re: Reb Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz on RSRH's 19 Letters (Ben Waxman)
• 7. Mussar vs. Chassidus (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: anti-meat rhetoric "according to Judaism" (Micha Berger)
• 9. Appropriate Chumros (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Reb Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz on RSRH's 19 Letters (Micha Berger)
• 11. Microphones on Shabbos (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: changing nusach [was: Reb Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz on RSRH's 19 Letters] (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Microphones on Shabbos (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: changing nusach [was: Reb Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz on RSRH's 19 Letters] (Rich, Joel)
• 15. Re: Bilvavi Mishkan Evneh, hashgacha pratit, and free will (Micha Berger)

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> Rather, I'm saying that tzaar is pain, not self-aware suffering.
> I am then explaining why I believe so little utility to man can
> halachically justify large amounts of pain to animals. The reason
> I'm suggesting is that it's because TBC is "only" about avoiding
> causing pain.

If I'm understanding you correctly, doing such an action (which has only a
small amount of usefulness for us) can be justified because it "only"
causes pain to the animal. But such a low threshold of utility could not be
justified if it causes suffering to a self-aware being.

This is beginning to make sense, and I applaud your efforts to explain how such a low threshold can be acceptable.

I'm not sure I agree, because even if the animal does not experience
"suffering", it still might be a great deal of "pain". From that
perspective, this might be a mere exercise in semantics, not unlike http://en.wikipedia.or
g/wiki/No_true_Scotsman  Still, the effort *is* worthwhile. Thanks.

Akiva Miller

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At 06:38 AM 8/5/2010, R. Arie Folger wrote:

>That is a feature of the 19th century German, and modern editorialists
>are still influenced by that style. However, I grant that in
>translation it is even more convoluted, because people do not write
>like that in English.
>
>Caveat: I barely read the 19 Letters, and base myself for this comment
>on RSRH's style entirely on his commentary to Chumasch, Tehillim and
>his Gesammelte Schriften (Collected Writings), the first and last of
>which I occasionally also consulted in English.

The new translation of RSRH's commentary on the Chumash is much more 
readable that the one done by I. Levi in the sixties.  I do not find 
it that difficult to comprehend.

There are also several translations into English of the 19 Letters, 
R. Dr. B. Drachman's, Jacob Breuer's based on R. Drachman's and the 
latest by Rabbi Elias. I think that Rabbi Elias' is somewhat easier 
to comprehend than the others.

YL
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Someone posted on Areivim a reference to a transgendered person who
was living within the chareidi community. They asked the question about
which side of the mechitzah they belong on. Truth is, mechitzah isn't
as pressing of a question as many of the others it raises -- marriage,
mitzvos asei shehazman gerama and other chiyuvim, etc...

The TE discusses the case of an agunah whose husband decided to become a
woman. It's pretty clear the she'eilah was hypothetical. He answers that
no get is necessary, because there is no concept of qiddushin between
two women. See 10:25:26:6. He also discusses what berakhah should be
said in the morning ("shehafchani le'ishah").

So apparently REWaldenberg holds that the surgery does change halachic
gender. Assur, but has a chalos. And even WRT the issur, he mentions
the case of a risk of suicide, and piquach nefesh docheh.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
mi...@aishdas.org        Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
http://www.aishdas.org   beyond measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Anonymous

(Cross posting to Avodah) 
?
--- On Wed, 8/4/10, torahm...@gmail.com <torahm...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>Conducting an intermarriage on Shabbos is bad, but using a microphone on
>>Shabbos would put him beyond the pale. 


?While this was said in jest/sarcasm, the truth is marrying non-jewish is only a lav, while breaking shabbos midoraysa theoreticallly
would be a lav ?+ misah. If I understand correctly, someone who marries
non-jewish could theoretically be trusted for hilchos kashrus(someone
correct me if i am wrong). While many consider intermarriage the 'worst'
sin ever, I think that concept itself is one borrowed from the
non-jews(irony)! The worst sins are those with the harshest punishments
prescribed by the torah, says Rabeinu Yonah.
---------------------------------
?
AFAIK there is no Issur melacha in using a microphone on Shabbos. The issue
is Mashmiyas Kol - making a loud noise on Shabbos (which at most is an
Issur D'Rabbanan IIRC). 
?
Microphones that are on before Shabbos and not touched are no different wrt
Melacha than hearing aids which operate on the same principle (amplifying
the sound passively). I don't know of any Poskim that?prohibit using a
hearing aid on Shabbos.
?
The fact is that even the electric component of a microphone might not?be
in the category of a Melacha. The CI Taaneh'd that Zerem (the flow of
electrons) constitued the Melacha of Boneh.? But I'm not convinced of that
and neither was RSZA - who although disagreeing with the CI about the
Metzius of electricity = was Noteh to the CI in Psak.
?
HM
?

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/




      
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From: R' Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>

>In the past we have discussed the permissibility of davening outdoors

>In today's halacha from ROY he discusses one who is on a tiyul.
>One preferably one should daven in a shul he allows davening in a minyan
>outdoors. They should stand near each other but bidieved it is okay
>as long as they hear the chazzan. They also bring that the group should
>not be on two sides of a road which is a separation between them

Kitzur SA 18:8: ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????, ???? ?????? ?????
??????, ??? ???? ???? ????, ???? ???? ?????. ??? ??? ???? ???? ??
?????? ????, ??? ???? ??, ????? ??? ???????

"One should not pray in a open area like a field, since in a private
place the fear of The King is upon him and his heart is broken and
subdued."

"And if he's on the road he may travel in the field, though if
possible he should stand between the trees."

Interesting query: what if he can concentrate better outside since
it's too hot/stuffy inside.

- Danny

However the question of the style and the flow and the simple readability
of the book does not mitigate the basic point, that Rav Hirsch's Torah is
simply not for everyone. There are too many Jews with too many different
ways for any single person, as great as he may be, to be the answer.

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Prof. Levine 

  The new translation of RSRH's commentary on the Chumash is much more
  readable that the one done by I. Levi in the sixties.  I do not find it
  that difficult to comprehend. 
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On Wed, Aug 04, 2010 at 08:25:01PM -0400, T6...@aol.com pretty much hijacked
a discussion I was trying to start about immanence, transcendence and vehalakhta
biderakhav when she wrote:

: I think that chassidus has much more warmth and heart than does mussar, and  
: there's a good reason why the one attracted hundreds of thousands while the  
: other attracted...dozens.  That was in Europe and kal vechomer in  America.

It's not a competition. As have been said by a couple of different
people on the RSFM and RSRH thread -- there is no one derekh that works
for everyone.

Speaking as someone whose daf yomi is in the Y-mi... The lack of
popularity of a derekh might actually increase its attractiveness to
those of us with basically contrarian natures. But even without such
not-necessarily-positive personality quirks, different things work for
different kinds of people.

Also, someone can't choose one derekh vs another because of its
effectiveness if he simply doesn't consider the postulates compelling.
A good song doesn't change my inability to believe that I am supposed
to cleave to a Creator who spends much of my lifetime in hesteir panim
moreso than to pursue emulating Him.

Third, yes, Mussar takes a long time before seeing results. As the Alter
of Kelm put it, "Mussar takes a lifetime, but that is the reason we were
given a lifetime." Lo alekha hamlakhah ligmor. Etc... However, those of
us in ve'adim who are married do get positive feedback from our spouses.
The incremental change is noticable. It's not just bitul zeman, even
if you don't reach (can't reach -- we're talking about being in the
"tzelem Elokim") the goal.

It is that length of time that kept Mussar from being popular. There is
a story I often retell, that I heard from R' Yehoshua Wender of Houston,
who in turn is a CC alumnus (a fact that is relevent to the story).
Here's a snippet from my blog, at
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2008/01/what-is-mussar.shtml>:

    What killed Mussar? Mussar never survived the end of East European
    Jewry's golden era. But why not, whereas Chassidus is rebuilding
    itself?

    Two yeshiva students noticed that of all the Slabodka graduates
    who built post-War yeshivos, only R' Dovid Leibowitz (founding
    Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivas Chofetz Chaim) strived to build a mussar
    yeshiva. Not R' Aharon Kotler, R' Yaakov Kamenecki, Rav Hutner, Rav
    Kahaneman, etc, etc, etc... They actually went around the US asking
    these rashei yeshiva why. Rav Hutner's answer is telling. He felt
    that the American student couldn't handle the long work that real
    change requires. Rav Hutner therefore chose the more modest goal
    (in his opinion) of inspiring them with the Maharal's thought.

    It is easy to be inspired by ideals. The trick is staring at the
    details, the step-by-step work, and still following through. And
    so today's generation of Israeli Orthodox "seekers" find a home
    in some "chulent" Rav Kook's and the Tanya's philosophy and
    Breslover experiences and Carlebach minyanim. They do not search
    for a program, a plan for getting from here to there. In the US,
    Carlebachian Neo-Chassidus is popular because it provides inspiring
    experiences without that demand of the day-to-day attention to detail
    and following a spiritual discipline that defies America's love of
    the "quick fix". Rav Hutner, in the founding years of the American
    Orthodox community of today, thought all we can do is inspire people
    toward the ideal and hope for the best without conscious work or a
    plan to get there.

    Given the increasing lack of a holistic, three pillar, approach
    to Yahadus, demonstrating a real need for mussar, and the greater
    strength of the community and its educational system today providing
    opportunity, I believe we have a sizable population ready to work
    for something better. To set out and build idealists -- of all the
    various ways we have formulated the Torah's ideals.

In short, my feeling is that spiritual aliyah is inherently a lifetime
of work, and therefore it is wrong to choose a derekh based on
immediate gratification. It sort of proves one must be grappling for a
not-quite-what-was-intended path.

...
: I think a heart-warming story and a beautiful niggun will inspire many more 
: acts of tzedakah -- whether communal or private -- than will weeks of 
: pondering  Adon Olam and how best to practice Imitatio Dei.  

For many people, yes. Anyone who has seen the army of Satmer's biqur
cholim volunteers can attest to that. Or needed a Chabad house out in
yehupitz (like spending Shabbos in the Times Square area.)

OTOH, we have people who think they are inspired by a heart warming
story and a song, and aren't moved to do anything. Or they are moved by
a melody, not religion. (A more extreme example of the phenomenon I'm
discussing: There are regulars at the Carlebach Shul who are very moved
by the tefillah, and yet also are part of the UWS's Tefillin Dating
"community".)

But RAEKaplan puts it better than I just did in his essay "Shtei
Dereakhim" <http://www.aishdas.org/raek/2derachim.pdf> (translation and
footnotes RYGB's, from a Jewish Observer a"h article):
    Mussar does not disagree with Chassidus. Mussar is often satisfied
    with the Jewish strength of Chassidus; its capacity not to submit
    to the environment; its heartfelt openness bein adam l'chaveiro
    that softens petty superficial European etiquette; its readiness
    to dedicate itself to a lofty purpose, and so easily sacrifice
    for that purpose normal conditions of life; its youthful fervor
    in mitzvos, which extends well into old age. Mussar, however, also
    has a significant criticism of Chassidus: It sees Chassidus as too
    external, too theoretical and abstract. The Chasid deludes himself
    into thinking that he is getting more out of Chassidus than he
    actually is. Chassidus deals with profound thoughts and great deeds,
    but it remains outside the essence of the Chasid. Chassidus penetrates
    the depths of the greatest Torah problems - between both Man and G-d,
    and between Man and Man - but it penetrates too little the self of a
    person, so that he might engage in a reckoning as to where he stands
    in relation to his World and in relation to his obligations in his
    World... The average Chasid deludes himself into thinking that a
    nigun that he sings wells up from his heart, and that the dveykus
    that he experiences has its source in his soul, even though it is
    entirely possible that these are transient moods, not associated
    with his true essence.[1] One should not judge hastily. We cannot
    say even to the simplest Chasid, when he experiences dveykus, that
    he does not truly cleave to G-d. But that constant self-critique:
    "Perhaps I am deluding myself;" the query that should accompany every
    step in life: "Have I not strayed in this instance from the path?";
    and, finally, all that is encompassed in the thought that serves as
    a necessary precondition for Shivisi Hashem l'negdi tamid ["I have
    placed G-d before me always"], namely, the thought, "I have placed
    my "self" before me always," - all this is more prevalent in Mussar
    than in Chassidus... [2]

    [1] Reb Avraham Elya was not negating the power of nigun - he himself
    wrote nigunim of dveykus (see B'Ikvos HaYir'ah pp. 217-218). [On
    line at <http://www.aishdas.org/raek#music>, sheet music, lyrics,
    and MIDI files of someone playing the melody. -micha]

    [2] ibid., p. 22. Reb Avraham Elya noted that the founders of
    Chassidus did know and impart the need for Mussar-like introspection
    to their followers, but sufficient stress was not placed on this
    component, and over time it was forsaken (ibid., p. 136).

: Furthermore, chassidus includes a hefty dose of kabbalah -- even if it's  
: just kabbalah-lite for most people -- which makes people feel that every good 
:  deed, every mitzva and every tefillah, activates wheels within wheels in  
: the Heavenly spheres and has powerful effects throughout the cosmos...

And also leads many people to turning their yahadus from an avodas Hashem
to theurgical excercises to get what they want. More focus on segulos than
on ol malkhus Shamayim. As I said, these things depend on the person

: People need a combination of mind and heart to inspire them.   I  really 
: think that thinking about Adon Olam just won't cut it.  However,  singing Adon 
: Olam to a beautiful melody -- just might.

Your seifa contradicts your reisha. For that matter, neither Chassidus
nor Mussar is about heart to the exclusion of mind, nor mind to the
exclusion of heart. Mussar has hispaalus, hisbonenus and pe'ulos, all
experientially oriented. Chassidus has the Tanya, the Sefas Emes, etc...

What I like about Mussar is that it gives me the tools to check whether
I'm being moved by a hartzig melody or by a calling to avodas Hashem.

But that's what works FOR ME. I am not saying that it's necessarily the
right choice for everyone.

This is a chiluq I make at AishDas Board Meetings between Mussar (the
teachings of the tenu'ah) and mussar (the general topic as referred to
in Mishlei). Lower-case-m-mussar includes developing a conscious plan
of how to commit to a life of aliyah through Chassidus, Mussar, TIDE,
or whatever -- or some personal mixture of ideals and approaches from
the mesorah. Our goal is to support the broader search, not to revive
the tenu'ah from the (quite literal, r"l) ashes.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Good decisions come from experience;
mi...@aishdas.org        Experience comes from bad decisions.
http://www.aishdas.org          - Djoha, from a Sepharadi fable
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 11:57:01AM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: ... [D]oing such an action (which has only a small amount of usefulness
: for us) can be justified because it "only" causes pain to the animal. But
: such a low threshold of utility could not be justified if it causes
: suffering to a self-aware being.

: I'm not sure I agree, because even if the animal does not experience
: "suffering", it still might be a great deal of "pain". From that
: perspective, this might be a mere exercise in semantics, not unlike
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman Still, the effort *is*
: worthwhile. Thanks.

I admitted my use of the word "suffering" was invented for my purpose.

The chiluq I'm using to make the point you accurately describe in the
first paragraph I quoted rests on a human being's being conscious of his
pain, whereas for an animal consciousness as we mean it is impossible --
whether of their pain or of anything else.

Does a human being whose hand recoils from pain while asleep without
them ever waking up enough to be conscious actually "suffer"? That's
a different state-of-awareness than that of an animal, but it's a
non-self-aware state that people can imagine about.

(That's not to say such pain would necessarily follow the same rules as
TBC. There is also kavod haadam and the One whose "tzelem" the person
embodies, as well as questions of dinei mamunus WRT the person's own
body to make the case more chamur.)

The definition of "suffering" was just to have a shorthand (which I did
define repeatedly) for the above chiluq, between "suffering" which only
humans can do, and "pain" which animals also have. You could disagree
with the validity of my using those terms (perhaps I'm using them in my
own technical way, but using your also hearing their usual connotations
to sway the emotions) without disagreeing with my basic thesis.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
mi...@aishdas.org        he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
http://www.aishdas.org   Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
Fax: (270) 514-1507      a spirit of purity.      - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Y-mi Shevi'is 7:2 20a has a discussion I found interesting.

The gemara quotes the Tosefta Maaseros 1:2, about herbs that were grown
in the wild in one year, and brought into one's chatzeir and thus become
obligated in maaser in the next.

If it was from the second year of the shemittah cycle going into the
third, the herbs have the din of the 3rd.

If it was from the 6th year going into shemitah, they have the din of
the 6th.

The Y-mi asks, but isn't this inconsistent -- here you say it's toward
the latter, and here you say it's toward the former year?

R' Yosi says that the 3rd and 6th years, even though they don't have
maaser sheini, they still have maasros. The 7th year has no maaser. R'
Avohu adds in the name of R' Yochanan that the 2nd year has priority
over the 3rd because maaser sheini goes to the baal, but maaser ani goes
to aniyim.

IOW, between shemittah and maaser sheini, the chumerah is to favor
maaser sheini. Between measer sheini and maaser ani, being machmir
means giving it to the ani.

Reminds me of RYS's chumerah in matzah baking...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Good decisions come from experience;
mi...@aishdas.org        Experience comes from bad decisions.
http://www.aishdas.org          - Djoha, from a Sepharadi fable
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 07:31:56AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> The new translation of RSRH's commentary on the Chumash is much more  
> readable that the one done by I. Levi in the sixties.  I do not find it 
> that difficult to comprehend.

IMHO, the new edition is far better for getting the basic ideas, but if
you are being more precise, the same loyalty to the German which makes
the earlier translation harder to follow also means the fine detail is
close to the original.

Different translation goals make each more useful for different
purposes.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A wise man is careful during the Purim banquet
mi...@aishdas.org        about things most people don't watch even on
http://www.aishdas.org   Yom Kippur.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 06:24:04AM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: AFAIK there is no Issur melacha in using a microphone on Shabbos...

Most microphones use active elements, and thus generate electricity.
It is possible if one is aware of it, to set up a PA system that
"only" violates derabbanans. But that isn't the default, IMHO.

: Microphones that are on before Shabbos and not touched are no
: different wrt Melacha than hearing aids which operate on the same
: principle (amplifying the sound passively). I don't know of any Poskim
: that?prohibit using a hearing aid on Shabbos.

But one can be meiqil on a derabbanan for kavod haberios that one couldn't
for stam a microphone.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is harder to eat the day before Yom Kippur
mi...@aishdas.org        with the proper intent than to fast on Yom
http://www.aishdas.org   Kippur with that intent.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Tue, Aug 03, 2010 at 10:49:51PM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: Lithuanian poskim say that you can switch from Nusach Sfard...
: Chassidim say that you can switch from Nusach Ashkenaz to Nusach Sfard...

: So the bottom line is whether you're a Litvak or a chossid, everyone  else 
: can change to your nusach but you can't change to theirs.

Well obviously, they are just repeating the original reasons for the split
-- minhag avos vs the Ari's kavanos. Or, on my "triangle": mimeticism
vs aggadita, although it might be legal argument vs aggadita.

However, ROY is saying something very different. His argument is specific
to what he believes is the SA's role in pesaq in EY. Not that "ours is
better" in some absolute sense, but that Sepharadi pesaq is the yishuv's
minhag hamaqom.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 01:19:48PM -0400, I wrote something that after
an off-line conversation I want to clarify.

: On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 06:24:04AM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
:: AFAIK there is no Issur melacha in using a microphone on Shabbos...

I replied:
: Most microphones use active elements, and thus generate electricity.
: It is possible if one is aware of it, to set up a PA system that
: "only" violates derabbanans. But that isn't the default, IMHO.

Passive element microphones tend to cost more to get the same quality
sound. So, you end up compromising and getting something that cost only
somewhat more to sound only somewhat worse.

Active element microphones generate electricity, and therefore can
involve melakhos.

Also, if the volume meter is a bar graph of lights, that too would
be a melakhah. (I am adding this point now, I didn't mention it in
the previous post.)

Therefore, unless someone is consciously trying to keep the issur down
to a derabbanan level, I would not assume it's only a derabbanan.

:: Microphones that are on before Shabbos and not touched are no
:: different wrt Melacha than hearing aids which operate on the same
:: principle (amplifying the sound passively). I don't know of any Poskim
:: that?prohibit using a hearing aid on Shabbos.

: But one can be meiqil on a derabbanan for kavod haberios that one couldn't
: for stam a microphone.

In a low power device where size in an issue, eg a hearing aid, a passive
element microphone is used. And thus the issues are typically "only" derabbanan.
However, there are differences in purpose that can create differences in
pesaq even for the identical design.

Hearing aids involve kavod haberi'os in a way that a shul's PA system does
not.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them,
mi...@aishdas.org        I have found myself, my work, and my God.
http://www.aishdas.org          - Helen Keller
Fax: (270) 514-1507

However, ROY is saying something very different. His argument is specific
to what he believes is the SA's role in pesaq in EY. Not that "ours is
better" in some absolute sense, but that Sepharadi pesaq is the yishuv's
minhag hamaqom.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
==================
And his psak that a sfardi must say sfardi kaddish in an ashkenazic minyan?
KT
Joel Rich
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On Sun, Aug 01, 2010 at 11:48:04AM -0500, Chanoch (Ken) Bloom wrote:
: Remember, I'm trying to backread Bilvavi's position into the gemara, and
: I'm ignoring the Kuzari and Rambam who apparently disagree (and whom
: Bilvavi doesn't quote).

To some extent you and I are having different conversations. You're
trying to find what the Bilvavi's shitah is WRT various rishonim. I'm
trying to understand how the Bilvavi can saying he is basing his shitah
on these meqoros.

For your conversation it's enough to find a reading that is
plausible. However, what made it difficult for me to continue with
his sefarim was that too often it feels like a stretch, as though
his new invention is being force-fitted into quotes he is calling
meqoros. Because he calls it a maqor, if you need to "try to backread",
even if you succeed in eliminating your question, my problem still exists.

...
:> The Bilvavi portrays the MY as one who would tell you to go for the
:> kavanah. The MY himself doesn't look like that to me.

: You raise an interesting question here, but it's not the same question
: as you asked in your previous message which was  "how can Bilvavi base
: himself on MY and say one should strive for deveikut when MY says
: deveikut is something that can only be achieved in Olam haBa?" My detour
: into what deveikut means is to clarify that the MY says deveikut is
: something that can be achieved in Olah haZeh.

: But your questions now are worthwhile, specifically:
:       * How can Bilvavi say that deveikut is our only goal in Olam
:         haZeh, when the Ramchal lists a whole bunch of other things that
:         we must work to achieve?

Not "a whole bunch of other things", one thing -- sheleimus. Sheleimus
includes wanting deveiqus, among other things. This is the erev Shabbos
for which we are to prepare for deveiqus on Shabbos. Quoting that
translation, further down:
    Man was created, then, for the sake of his station in the World
    to Come. Therefore, this soul was placed in him. For it befits the
    soul to serve God; and through it a man may be rewarded in his place
    and in his time. And rather than the world's being despicable to the
    soul, it is, to the contrary, to be loved and desired by it. This is
    self-evident. After recognizing this we will immediately appreciate
    the greatness of the obligation that the mitzvoth place upon us and
    the preciousness of the Divine service which lies in our hands. For
    these are the means which bring us to true perfection, a state
    which, without them, is unattainable. ... We thus derive that the
    essence of a man's existence in this world is solely the fulfilling
    of mitzvoth, the serving of God and the withstanding of trials, and
    that the world's pleasures should serve only the purpose of aiding and
    assisting him, by way of providing him with the contentment and peace
    of mind requisite for the freeing of his heart for the service which
    devolves upon him. It is indeed fitting that his every inclination
    be towards the Creator, may His Name be blessed, and that his every
    action, great or small, be motivated by no purpose other than that
    of drawing near to the Blessed One and breaking all the barriers
    (all the earthy elements and their concomitants) that stand between
    him and his Possessor, until he is pulled towards the Blessed One
    just as iron to a magnet....

So, the way I see it, the MY is saying that olam hazeh is for sheleimus,
which includes building a taavah for and skill in deveiqus. However,
there is only minimal deveiqus in olam hazeh, and getting that deveiqus
isn't life's goal -- sheleimus is.

:       * If we take it for granted that Bilvavi and MY agree that
:         deveikut is our only goal in Olam haZeh, then what does Bilvavi
:         find lacking in MY's derech that he has to propose his own
:         derech (and present it specifically as the ikkar) to accomplish
:         that goal?

I see Bilvavi as a Mussar-Chassidus synthesis. Rather than Chassidus's
setting up situations to experience deveiqus, RIS is stressing the need
to become capable of being a nidvaq. ("Being capable of being a nidvaq"
is also a plausible sound-bite for Novhardok's derekh, but they defined
deveiqus in terms of yir'ah and bitachon rather than in more ahavah and
thus chassidishe terms.)

But unlike the MY it's not repairing one's ability for deveiqus in
preparation for real deveiqus later. Bilvavi is more Chassidish than
that -- it's acheiving deveiqus (in olam hazeh, as per chassidus) by
repearing one's ability.

I would also contrast the Bilvavi's derekh to these words by REED (MmE
5 pp 45-39, tr. RYGB, Jewish Observer):

        In our times: The qualities of "Emet" that personified the Ba'alei
        Mussar are already extinct. We no longer find individuals whose
        hearts are full with profound truth, with a strong and true
        sense of Cheshbon HaNefesh. We have reached the era of Ikvasa
        d'Mashicha, generations that Chazal described as superficial. If
        we find an individual who does learn Mussar, we find that he is
        primarily interested in the intellect of Mussar, the profound
        philosophy and psychology that are linked to Mussar. Even if he
        learns Mussar b'hispa'alus, rarely does this activity lead to
        Cheshbon HaNefesh.

        Contemporary Chassidus lacks the component that was once at its
        core: Avodas Hashem with dveykus. All that remains is the external
        form of Chassidus, something that appears like hislahavus. There
        is nigun, but the soul of nigun is no longer. Hitlahavus in
        davening is almost a thing of the past.

        For today's era, there remain only one alternative: To take up
        everything and anything that can be of aid to Yahadus; the wisdom
        of both Mussar and Chassidus together. Perhaps together they can
        inspire us to great understandings and illuminations. Perhaps
        together they might open within us reverence and appreciation of
        our holy Torah. Perhaps the arousal of Mussar can bring us to
        a little Chassidic hislahavus. And perhaps the hislahavus will
        somewhat fortify one for a Cheshbon HaNefesh. Perhaps through
        all these means together we may merit to ascend in spirituality
        and strengthen our position as Bnei Torah with an intensified
        Judaism. May G-d assist us to attain all this!

Bilvavi is taking the shei'ris hapeleitah of Eastern Europe and looking
for points in common with which to build a fusion derekh. A best of
both worlds.

REED is saying that we are too impoverished to worry about a derekh.
Just do whatever you find that works, and don't try for a synthesis or
a consistent philosophy to justify them.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The waste of time is the most extravagant
mi...@aishdas.org        of all expense.
http://www.aishdas.org                           -Theophrastus
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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