Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 164

Fri, 20 Aug 2010

• 1. Hayinu keCholmim (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Hayinu keCholmim (Simon Montagu)
• 3. Calculating 5771 (Saul Stokar)
• 4. A Cheireish Who Could Write (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: A Cheireish Who Could Write (Zev Sero)
• 6. new editions (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 7. Re: new editions (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: STAM Not Glatt! (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: new editions (Rich, Joel)
• 10. Re: STAM Not Glatt! (Akiva Blum)
• 11. Ben Sorar Umoreh (and WebChaver?) (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: new editions (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: How game theory solved a religious mystery (Prof. Levine)
• 14. Re: How game theory solved a religious mystery (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: How game theory solved a religious mystery (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: How game theory solved a religious mystery (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: How game theory solved a religious mystery (Rich, Joel)

The idiom "hayinu kecholmim" from Shir haMaalos is elusive.

Generally translations run along the lines of saying that we would be so
excited about the final ge'ulah, it would feel like a dream.

Some note the lashon avar of "hayinu" and explain it as saying that the
ge'ulah will make the galus seem like just a nightmare ("it was like we
were dreaming"). I don't find it compelling, since lashon avar is often
used in nevu'ah to denote something that is as good as done already --
the prophetic perfect. (What we call "lashon avar" was historically the
perfect aspect, not the past tense.)

I encountered in the TY, Terumos 1:1 2b, a discussion of someone who
r"l is sometimes shoteh sometimes lucid. The term used for healthy
is "chalim". At the end, the gemara justifies translating the tanna
accordingly by citing Yeshaiahah 38:17 "vesachalimeini vehachayeini".
(Similar citation is in the TB, Mes Berakhos and Menachos 44b.)

So perhaps "hayinu kecholmim" means "we will be like people recovering"?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org        on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org   if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Richard Bach

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 7:05 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> The idiom "hayinu kecholmim" from Shir haMaalos is elusive.
>
> <snip>

> I encountered in the TY, Terumos 1:1 2b, a discussion of someone who
> r"l is sometimes shoteh sometimes lucid. The term used for healthy
> is "chalim". At the end, the gemara justifies translating the tanna
> accordingly by citing Yeshaiahah 38:17 "vesachalimeini vehachayeini".
> (Similar citation is in the TB, Mes Berakhos and Menachos 44b.)
>
> So perhaps "hayinu kecholmim" means "we will be like people recovering"?
>
>
You are mechaven here to the Targum: havina heich mar`aya de'ittasyan. I
believe I have also seen this in an English translation, but I can't
remember where.
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I have posted a simple (Hebrew) explanation of the determination (in terms
of the rules of the calendar) for the upcoming year 5771 at:
http://www.ai
shdas.org/avodah/faxes/simanim5771.pdf<;https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2
F%2Fwww.aishdas.org%2Favodah%2Ffaxes%2Fsimanim5771.pdf>

Saul Stokar
Raanana, Israel
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AFAIK, "everyone" holds that today's deaf-mute would not qualify as
cheireish. The idea being that a cheireish is someone who is cut off
from communication and can't be taught, a problem not faced by today's
deaf-mute, now that we have sign languages.

As I mentioned yesterday, the inyan on the first couple of blatt of
Y-mi Terumos is about cheireish shoteh veqatan. In particular, what if a
cheireish indicates through head nodding or writing that he wishes to give
his wife a get? Do we say that his actions indicate daas sufficiently to
overcome the rule about cheireish? The gemara ends up saying that if he
was once a piqeiach and since became a cheireish (slowly, not as a suddent
recent event), he could give terumah. It doesn't work for get, but only
because the shtar stands like a middleman between himself and appointing
the sofer as a shaliach. And you can't appoint a shaliach indirectly.

But given what I said in the first paragraph... How does someone who
could read and write qualify as a cheireish to even have this discussion?
Why do we hold that American Sign Language takes someone out of the
chalos-sheim cheireish when the gemara says that written Hebrew does not?
Do we simply not hold like this Y-mi?

The Ein Mishpat on the side only gives the Rambam and Tur WRT geirushin,
which as I mentioned wouldn't work through kesivah either way.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
mi...@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Micha Berger wrote:
> AFAIK, "everyone" holds that today's deaf-mute would not qualify as
> cheireish. The idea being that a cheireish is someone who is cut off
> from communication and can't be taught, a problem not faced by today's
> deaf-mute, now that we have sign languages.

Everyone seems to hold this way today, at least in public, but I've
never found a decent explanation of why, that doesn't ignore the open
halacha you mention, about a cheresh who can write fluently.  I think
the question is avoided in practise, by relying on the fact that almost
every dumb person can really speak in a way that's intelligible to those
who know him very well, and is therefore not really dumb.




-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

i wonder if the topic of  new editions of classic halachic works has come 
up. on mail-jewish , someone was discussing a particular psak in shmirat 
shabbat kehilchata [SSK] , and a responder  noted  that the person must 
have  been referring  to the original 1st edition ,  for  the  psak  [and 
the discussion in the notes]  had  changed  significantly.  one wonders 
how  to deal with trying to find what has changed between editions of psak 
sfarim. relevant now since the new  edition of 
SSK has come out.  they have tried  at least to point  out  correspondence 
of simanim between  edition 2 and 3, with some new material appearing.  i 
wonder whether a sticker need be placed on older editions to say user 
beware....


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On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:02:31AM -0700, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
:     on mail-jewish, someone was discussing a particular psak in shmirat 
: shabbat kehilchata [SSK], and a responder noted that the person must 
: have been referring to the original 1st edition, for the psak [and 
: the discussion in the notes] had changed significantly. one wonders 
: how to deal with trying to find what has changed between editions of psak 
: sfarim. relevant now since the new edition of 
: SSK has come out. they have tried at least to point out correspondence 
: of simanim between edition 2 and 3, with some new material appearing. i 
: wonder whether a sticker need be placed on older editions to say user 
: beware....

I would think that if the author identified errors the first edition, or
things he phrased ambiguously, the book should be decirculated altogether
when the corrected version comes out.

What to me is an open question is when the first edition isn't so much
wrong as the author shifts from one "eilu" to another "eilu" during the
evolution of his own religious life.

(I also wonder why you would ask this question here. It would seem that
commenting to something you saw on Mail-Jewish is more appropriately done
on Mail-Jewish. Even during a week when Avodah volume is abnormally low.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch

On Mon, Aug 09, 2010 at 01:59:08PM +0300, Danny Schoemann wrote:
: The Be'er Heitev (16) brings 3 sources (abbreviated - and I can't
: figure them out ambiguously) that it's preferable to use skins of
: animals that are Kosher-to-be-eaten.

What I can't figure out is whether this is a preference midinei sta"m
to use such kelaf, or a bal tashchis issue -- better not to kill two
animals when you could eat and get kelaf from the same one.

The lashon in the be'eir heiteiv is fleeting.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

 


I would think that if the author identified errors the first edition, or
things he phrased ambiguously, the book should be decirculated altogether
when the corrected version comes out.

What to me is an open question is when the first edition isn't so much
wrong as the author shifts from one "eilu" to another "eilu" during the
evolution of his own religious life.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

------------------------------
I've often wondered what responsibility a person has to check back with a
posek (forget about books) or does he have to ask a new shailah when his
posek is niftar (e.g.the poseik later in life decides hachzara is no good,
or is niftar and the new rav in town holds differently)
KT
Joel Rich

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org 
> [mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Micha Berger

> What I can't figure out is whether this is a preference midinei sta"m
> to use such kelaf, or a bal tashchis issue -- better not to kill two
> animals when you could eat and get kelaf from the same one.
> 
> The lashon in the be'eir heiteiv is fleeting.
> 
But the Rama MiFano [
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1138&;hilite=83937d16-cd14-4b8c-9262
-669eb24a974b&st=%D7%A0%D7%91%D7%9C%D7%94&pgnum=104] is clearer.

Neveila suffers 'din kashe' that a shchuta doesn't. Ayin Shom.

Akiva

RSRH's masterful essay on Ben Sorar Umoreh may be read at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/ben_sorar_moreh.pdf

At one point in this essay he writes, "All this applies particularly 
to a Jewish boy growing into Jewish manhood under the direction of 
parents who have truly done their duty. Such a boy has been guided 
from his earliest childhood by the shining example of his parents. 
They have demonstrated to him by their own conduct how man should 
happily subordinate all his aspirations to the higher authority of 
God, and that, in fact, this is the only way in which man can achieve 
true happiness in his life and work. They have shown him by their own 
behavior how the genuine Jew banishes all that is sordid and ignoble 
from his life, how he places the imprint of Divine consecration even 
upon the most physical aspects of daily living, and how every phase 
of life, public and private, should be ruled by one and the same 
spirit and ideal-the spirit and the ideal expressed by the term 
mitzvah, duty as commanded by God."

Given that the requirement to install WebChaver on the computers of 
all parents at YTY was motivated by educational considerations, 
perhaps a detailed study of this essay is in order, especially now, 
when it is in this week's parsha.  YL


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The Rambam is known to have constantly tinkered with the Yad, and since
he published it through a "print-on-demand" house (i.e. his scriptorium)
he was able to introduce changes as they occurred to him, without a formal
edition or release number.  He did change a few pesakim over the years,
though I can't cite any examples.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

At the suggestion of an Areivim Moderator, I am reposting this to Avodah. YL

At 11:22 PM 8/19/2010, s...@columbia.edu wrote:
 >It appears that with your secular background, you don't understand
 >game theory -- but do you understand the gemara (in kesuvos) ? I'll 
bet not...

There are many things that I do not understand.

I did not mean to imply that a decent secular background allows one
to understand all things. Nonetheless, we do have

"When I was in the illustrious city of Vilna in the presence of the
Rav, the light, the great Gaon, my master and teacher, the light of
the eyes of the exile, the renowned pious one (may Hashem protect and
save him) Rav Eliyahu, in the month of Teves 5538 [January 1778], I
heard from his holy mouth that according to what a person is lacking
in knowledge of the "other wisdoms," correspondingly he will be
lacking one hundred portions in the wisdom of the Torah, because the
Torah and the 'other wisdoms' are inextricably linked together ..."

(From the Introduction to the Hebrew translation of Euclid's book on
geometry, Sefer Uklidos [The Hague, 1780] by R. Barukh Schick of Shklov)

Please also see
<http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/relevance_se
cular_studies_jewish_education.pdf>The 

Relevance of Secular Studies to Jewish Education (Collected Writings VII)


Yitzchok Levine
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The context of this discussion is <http://tinyurl.com/65okjc>, R' Yisrael
Aumann (a/k/a Prof Robert Aumann, the Nobel Laureate in Economics 2005)
and his explanation of a difficult question in hilkhos yerushah.

On Areivim, RZS asked about the value in general:
> *If* Prof. Auman was mechaeven to the intention of the original Amoraim,
> then yasher koach to him, and we can now understand this gemara better
> than the rishonim did; and maybe there are more gemaras that the same
> knowledge will help interpret, but maybe that's the only one. Is it
> really worth studying game theory just for that? Once one has 'filled
> his belly with bread and meat', perhaps; but surely not until then.

The quote about lechem ubasar is significant, and can't be summarily
dismissed.

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 08:43:38AM -0400, Prof. Levine quoted R'
Barukh Shklover's introduction to Seifer Euclidus (which he translated
to Hebrew by the Gra's request):
> "When I was in the illustrious city of Vilna in the presence of the
> Rav, the light, the great Gaon, my master and teacher, the light of
> the eyes of the exile, the renowned pious one (may Hashem protect and
> save him) Rav Eliyahu, in the month of Teves 5538 [January 1778], I
> heard from his holy mouth that according to what a person is lacking
> in knowledge of the "other wisdoms," correspondingly he will be
> lacking one hundred portions in the wisdom of the Torah, because the
> Torah and the 'other wisdoms' are inextricably linked together ..."

In Qol haTor the Gra is quoted as giving a 100:1 ratio -- that one misses
out on 100 yadim of Torah for every yad of other chokhmos that he
lacks. See the longer discussion at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/schreiber_gaon.pdf> by R' Aharom
Moshe Schreiber.

This topic gives me a chance to plug the hesped I wrote for R' Eliezer /
Dr Leon Ehrenpreis z"l
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2010/08/r-dr-eliezer-ehrenpreis-zl.shtml>.
I open with an example of how REE opened his version of Calc 101 by
teaching a Tosafos in Sukkah. None of RYBS's dialectics or "ramatayim
tzofim" between torah umaddah; math and Torah were to him parts of a
single whole.

In which case, one isn't conflicting with the filling up on meat and
wine. Which is plausibly the Gra's derekh in understanding that Chazal.

Alternatively, RARR suggests that "filling up on meat and wine" isn't
knowing kol haTorah kulah kulah, but knowing enough to be anchored in
it. Such that whatever other chokhmos one then accumulates become tavlin,
and Torah remains the iqar (the "meat") of the meal.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Take time,
mi...@aishdas.org        be exact,
http://www.aishdas.org   unclutter the mind.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 10:43:27AM -0400, I wrote:
: On Areivim, RZS asked about the value in general:
:> *If* Prof. Auman was mechaeven to the intention of the original Amoraim,
:> then yasher koach to him, and we can now understand this gemara better
:> than the rishonim did; and maybe there are more gemaras that the same
:> knowledge will help interpret, but maybe that's the only one. Is it
:> really worth studying game theory just for that? Once one has 'filled
:> his belly with bread and meat', perhaps; but surely not until then.

: The quote about lechem ubasar is significant, and can't be summarily
: dismissed.

But then I forgot to make the point for which I quoted RZS!

I think the approach has value whether or not this was the intent of
the amoraim involved.

It could well be that the amoraim got their results through straight
halachic analysis. That would explain the how-it-came-to-be of the
halakhah. It does not explain why the halakhah's resolution is more
or fair. Through game theory, RYAumann gives us insight into how this
mishnah fits derakheha darkhei no'am, regardless of whether the law was
actually decided in those terms.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
mi...@aishdas.org        ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 10:43:27AM -0400, I wrote:
: On Areivim, RZS asked about the value in general:
:> *If* Prof. Auman was mechaeven to the intention of the original Amoraim,
:> then yasher koach to him, and we can now understand this gemara better
:> than the rishonim did; and maybe there are more gemaras that the same
:> knowledge will help interpret, but maybe that's the only one. Is it
:> really worth studying game theory just for that? Once one has 'filled
:> his belly with bread and meat', perhaps; but surely not until then.

: The quote about lechem ubasar is significant, and can't be summarily
: dismissed.

But then I forgot to make the point for which I quoted RZS!

I think the approach has value whether or not this was the intent of
the amoraim involved.

It could well be that the amoraim got their results through straight
halachic analysis. That would explain the how-it-came-to-be of the
halakhah. It does not explain why the halakhah's resolution is more
or fair. Through game theory, RYAumann gives us insight into how this
mishnah fits derakheha darkhei no'am, regardless of whether the law was
actually decided in those terms.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
mi...@aishdas.org        ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

"When I was in the illustrious city of Vilna in the presence of the
Rav, the light, the great Gaon, my master and teacher, the light of
the eyes of the exile, the renowned pious one (may Hashem protect and
save him) Rav Eliyahu, in the month of Teves 5538 [January 1778], I
heard from his holy mouth that according to what a person is lacking
in knowledge of the "other wisdoms," correspondingly he will be
lacking one hundred portions in the wisdom of the Torah, because the
Torah and the 'other wisdoms' are inextricably linked together ..."

(From the Introduction to the Hebrew translation of Euclid's book on
geometry, Sefer Uklidos [The Hague, 1780] by R. Barukh Schick of Shklov)

 =================================================
So I've often wondered if the GRA thought this way (and I agree-not that
that means anything), and he thought the Rambam was philosophically way off
base (Aristotle and all that) , why wouldn't he not have accepted the
Rambam's halacha as being deficient due to this inextricable link.
KT
Joel Rich
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