Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 175

Fri, 17 Sep 2010

• 1. Re: Testing Hashem with Maaser (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 2. Re: Testing Hashem with Maaser (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: slichos skipping (Arie Folger)
• 4. Re: Which way to Jerusalem? (Ben Waxman)
• 5. Re: which way to Jerusalem (Zev Sero)
• 6. Shofar blowing (Rich, Joel)
• 7. maaserot (Eli Turkel)
• 8. which way to Jerusalem (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Kemeizid beSefeiko keShogeig beVadai (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Shofar blowing (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Which way to Jerusalem? (Simon Montagu)
• 12. Re: self-improvement (Micha Berger)

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> Maaser bizman hazeh is derabbanan. There is a question as
> to whether it comes with the same berakhah. (Similar to the
> question of whether poultry and milk, presuming it's also
> derabbanan, causes timtum haleiv.)

We're talking about maaser *kesafim*, right? Was there ever a time when it had a different status than it does today?

Just to avoid confusion: I am aware that there's a machlokes on whether
Maaser Kesafim is d'Orasia or d'Rabanan or minhag. But whichever shitah one
goes by, my understanding is that there's no difference between now and any
other era.

Akiva Miller

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On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 07:20:24PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: We're talking about maaser *kesafim*, right? Was there ever a time
: when it had a different status than it does today?

I didn't realize that.

: Just to avoid confusion: I am aware that there's a machlokes on whether
: Maaser Kesafim is d'Orasia or d'Rabanan or minhag. But whichever shitah
: one goes by, my understanding is that there's no difference between now
: and any other era.

But was "'aseir ta'aser' -- aseir bishvil shetis'asheir" ever applied
outside the context of the rest of the pasuq "es tevu'as zar'akha"?

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
mi...@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

RAM wrote:
> Also, I've long suspected that some of what comes after Vidui
> gets skipped. I can never be sure, because (in my experience)
> no chazan ever says any of it out loud.

Well, you should look further.

We say much of that out loud, singing it with a particular well known
tune. Non Jeckes preserved it in the form of ... An'im Zemiraus (ok,
it is not exactly the same tune, because the AZ tune has ever so
slightly evolved in many places, but it is close enough). That tune is
used for Ma'hei uMasse through the end, except for Makhnisei Ra'hamim
and the lone Avinu Malkeinu.

Result: no one skips from mi she'ana until the end in our place (Mi
she'ana is also said out loud, in a prompt/response model, with the
shatz saying the mi she'ana le... hu ya'anenu part, and the tzibbur
responding hu ya'anenu).

-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Basler Gymnasium experimentiert mit Chawrut?-Lernen
* Where Will We Find Refuge ... from technology overload
* Video-Vortrag: Psalm 34
* We May Have Free Will, After All
* Equal Justice for All
* Brutal Women of Nazi Germany
* Gibt es in der Unterhaltungsliteratur eine Rolle f?r G"tt?

Actually what I have seen a few times (at the Kotel and in shuls in 
Jerusalem) are minyanim where some people face the front of the shul and few 
face some other direction (claiming that this is the "more correct" 
direction). I never knew if this was something of such import that it worth 
being poresh from the tzibbur.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Danny Schoemann" <doni...@gmail.com>
>
> One advantage of living in Yerusholayim is that you can be 100% sure
> your shul is facing the correct direction. Just go onto the roof and
> check. :-)

On 14/09/2010 7:33 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> On 8/09/2010 9:58 PM, Simon Montagu wrote:
>> article here at aishdas: http://www.aishdas.org/articles/mizrach.htm
>   >Apparently it's a mahloket aharonim whether we use rhumb lines or great
>> circles.
>
> I am confused by the entire discussion. It is clear that at least many
> of chazal and rishonim did not even know the earth was a sphere (well
> almost) and I doubt if any of them knew about great circles or rhumb lines.

Some of Chazal may not have known that the earth is a globe, especially
those in Bavel, where the latest discoveries of Greek scientists may have
taken a few centuries to become known and accepted; but surely all the
rishonim knew it well.


> Do we even know what direction they prayed in Bavel, ie   did they
> realize that EY was almost due east (again depending on where in
> Bavel)? since no one traveled that way?

Yes, they did realise it; they called EY "maarava", not "tzipuna".
Which way they davened depended on how they held.  Not all of them
agreed that one should daven towards EY at all, and interpreted the
pasuk figuratively.   And some held that one should face vaguely in
the direction of EY, but there's no need for any kind of exactitude.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

Why are the final lkolot sounded in the middle of kaddish rather than before (or after?)?
GCT
Joel Rich

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<<AFAIK, though, no one dissents about the idea that maaser is the one area
in which we are called upon to test HQBH, the exception to the rule. (Why
isn't shemittah counted?) However, one could argue this is only maaser
deOraisa, as no such promise was given to derabbanan.>>

For shemittah CI states explicitly we cant rely on the torah's promises
since shemitta today is derabbanan

-- 
Eli Turkel

<<Do we even know what direction they prayed in Bavel, ie   did they
realize that EY was almost due east (again depending on where in
Bavel)? since no one
traveled that way?>>

Surely they knew that;  they called E"Y Maarava.>>

Agreed. However, the exact direction would depend where in Babylonia one lived
parts of the Euphrates are north-east of EY
http://goodnewspirit.com/pdf7201euphratesmap.pdf
For example R. Judah b. Bathyra at Nisibis (in Mesopotamia near the
Syrian border)

However, an internet search shows that there were general maps in
existence at this time.
See for example
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_world_maps

-- 
Eli Turkel

The principle in the title comes from Y-mi Terumos, 31a. Someone
who intentionally eats safeiq heqdeish has the same din as someone
who beshogeig eats vadai heqdeish. In general, "kemeizid besefeiqo
keshogeieg bevadai."

Now I'm wondering how this works according to RSShkop (Shaarei Yoshet 1:9)
et al who say that safeiq deOraisa lechumerah is itself a din derabbanan.
(And thus in a sefeiq sefeiqa the first safeiq reduces it to a derabbanan,
and the 2nd safeiq is an instance of safeiq derabbanan lequlah. And
that's why we're meiqil.)

How can doing a deOraisa beshogeig have the same din as doing a derabbanan
-- because he's willingly violating a safeiq deOraisa? Wouldn't the shogeig
incur a chiyuv to bring a chatas, while the safeiq (ie derabbanan) would
be punishable by makas mardus.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 08:49:43PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: Why are the final lkolot sounded in the middle of kaddish rather than
before (or after?)?

In my shul, the final qolos were 10 qolos before "LeDavid: Hashem Ori".

The 30 qolos before then were probably in the middle of qaddish rather
than at the end. My guess is, so that it's concluded before "tisqabel
tzelos-hana", as shofar blowing is inseprable from mussaf. OTOH, we don't
want the chazan to pause for the baal toqei'ah between chazaras hashas
and qaddish. Even though it's part of tefillah, for him personally it's
inaction. So, we stop between the iqar qaddish and the post-tefillah
add-on.

Personally, blowing qolos in the middle of the quiet Shemoneh Esrei makes
more sense to me.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
mi...@aishdas.org        exactly the right measure of himself,  and
http://www.aishdas.org   holds a just balance between what he can
Fax: (270) 514-1507      acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il> wrote:
>
> Actually what I have seen a few times (at the Kotel and in shuls in
> Jerusalem) are minyanim where some people face the front of the shul
> and few face some other direction (claiming that this is the "more
> correct" direction). I never knew if this was something of such import
> that it worth being poresh from the tzibbur.
>

This seems to me hasidut shtut. See AHS OH 94:13 --
http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9A_%D7%94%
D7%A9%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9F_%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%97_%D7%97%D7%99%D7%99%D
7%9D_%D7%A6%D7%93#.D7.A1.D7.99.D7.9E.D7.9F_.D7.A6.D7.93_.D7.A1.D7.A2.D7.99.
D7.A3_.D7.99.D7.92
or http://tinyurl.com/2wwjacj

I would say that giving the impression of 2 reshuyot was orders of
magnitude more serious than being poresh from the tzibbur.

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 07:47:23AM -0700, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote to
Areivim:
: http://www.hakhel.info/archivesPublicService/YomKippur5766Doing
: Teshuvah.pdf 
: one from column A, one from column B....

I suggested that to a group, but using Teshuvah, Tefillah, uTzedaqah.
I proposed three columns:
Teshuvah - accepting to do an incremental change in self (Torah, middos),
Tefillah - in how I relate to HQBH, and
Tzedaqah - how I relate to others.

But then, the motto of the organization that hosts this list is "Da'as,
Rachamim, Tif'eres." Quoting <http://www.aishdas.org/TADS_MissionStatement.pdf>:
    In Dr. Nathan Birnbaum's words, one must work toward da'as --
    an intimate knowledge of the Almighty; rachamim -- an empathetic
    relationship toward others; and tif'eres -- a mind totally shaped
    by and at harmony with the Torah's way of thought and values.

In the ideal, people would find their own incremental changes. But we
are called upon to think in these directions so rarely, I think the
lists of suggestions is very appropriate and useful.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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