Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 206

Mon, 29 Nov 2010

• 1. Levush for missing parts of Aruch Hashulchan (Dovi Jacobs)
• 2. Tamar's Theatrics (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 3. Fasting for rain (Moshe Feldman)
• 4. Re: Tamar's Theatrics (Micha Berger)
• 5. Nevuah and Brisk (Micha Berger)
• 6. Maharal on Welcoming Questions (Micha Berger)
• 7. Self Esteem (Micha Berger)
• 8. Remaining in Learning (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: Fasting for rain (Ben Waxman)
• 10. Re: Fasting for rain (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: singing (Micha Berger)

(Shavua Tov. Reposting this to Avodah from Areivim as per moderator's request.)

For those who use the Aruch Hashulchan to learn and review halachah, I'm pleased 
to announce that the Levush is now available online for the missing parts of 
Yoreh Deah. The AHS itself was styled after the Levush, and while there are very 
important differences between the two, learning the Levush is certainly one good 
to review the chapters that are missing in the AHS. The Levush is a wonderful 
work for the general study and review of halachah, though nowadays it is often 
neglected for that purpose, and it would be wonderful if this might be a small 
way to revive its usage.

The digital online edition of the Levush Ateres Zahav on Yoreh Deah is similar 
to the online AHS, including simple and extremely convenient navigation, full 
punctuation, division into paragraphs, and direct hyperlinks to sources. 
Additionally, the digital edition of each chapter includes an image of the 
printed page from the edition published in Prague, 1609 (one of the early 
editions published during the lifetime of the author). Credit and thanks go to 
the wonderful HebrewBooks.org project for making that scanned edition freely 
available online.

The texts currently available are those parts of Yoreh Deah which do not appear 
in the Arukh Hashulchan:

1. The Laws of Aku"m (simanim 123-182), including Yayin Nesekh, Avodas Kochavim, 
Ribbis, and Chukos ha-Aku"m. This important section of the Aruch Hashulchan was 
never published and ultimately lost. 

2. Hilkhos Terumos and Ma`seros (simanim 331-332). These are purposely missing 
in the AHS, because the author decided to leave them out in order to fully deal 
with them later in the Aruch Hashulchan He-Asid. There is, however, some value 
in learning them in their context within Yoreh Deah (especially for those who 
want to learn Yoreh Deah in its entirety), and thus their availability now in 
the Levush.

In the future I hope to complete two remaining projects:

1. Levush on Hilchos Nedarim and Shavuos (simanim 203-239). This part was 
missing in the original edition that appeared in the lifetime of the author (he 
apparently didn't have the opportunity to publish it). It was finally published 
in 1992 by Rabbi Dr. Simchah Fishbane from the author's manuscript. However, 
only one of the many editions of the Aruch Hashulchan contains it, so having the 
Levush in a convenient online format would be a useful substitute for those 
(including myself) who do not own that particular edition.

2. Aruch Hashulchan on Hilchos Niddah. The AHS is very full on these halachos, 
and it would also of course be of great practical value.

Besides the above, the AHS on Orach Chaim has been available in its entirety for 
some time already, as have large and significant parts of Yoreh Deah. Full 
indices for Orach Chaim and Yoreh Deah are at the following links:

http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/AHS:OH (Orach Chaim)
http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/AHS:YD (Yoreh Deah)
http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/LEV:YD (Levush on Yoreh Deah)

As always, the ultimate purpose of all these texts is to provide a tool that 
makes a serious review of halachah easier, more convenient, and more fruitful. 
The tool is free to use by anyone for any purpose.

Readers are of course invited to add their own texts as well. Even a single 
edited siman is welcome.

Also, I would like to make contact with Rabbi Dr. Simchah Fishbane. If anyone 
can provide assistance I would be grateful.

The Levush on these sections is dedicated to the memory Rivkah Zuckerman 
Matityah bat Yeshaya Halevi and Tirtzel of Har Homah, Jerusalem, whose shloshim 
will be this coming Monday (22 Kislev). She was a still-young woman who did an 
incredible amount of good for others before her life was cut short, a rare 
combination of idealism and zeal mixed with tolerance and kindness. May her 
parents, husband and children be comforted among the mourners of Zion and 
Jerusalem. More here: 
http://coffeeandchemo.blogspot.com/

Dovi Jacobs



      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20101127/a17b3029/attachment-0001.htm>

After Tamar tricked Yehuda, I suppose Yehuda said something to the effect
that, "I'll send one of my men in the morning with your goat, and to get my
collateral back."

My question is: Why did she remain silent? Why didn't she say something
like, "Keep your collateral. I am Tamar. I tricked you becuase I was tire
of waiting for Shelah." But she didn't. Instead, she put her almanah's
clothing back on, and pretended to continue waiting for Shelah. Why?

Here's my guess:

Yibum today is different than back then. One difference is that today yibum
is done only by the deceased's brother, and back then it could be any
member of the deceased's family. Could it be that another difference is
that today only one act of biah is needed, after which they can divorce,
while back then the goal was pregnancy. If I am correct, Tamar had to keep
the illusion going, because if her first attempt failed, she might have to
resort to such trickery again.

Can anyone find a source to validate my guess, or can anyone offer a different answer?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Job Scams (EXPOSED)
We investigated work at home jobs and what we found may shock you...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4cf1af5d1469f4a9903st02vuc

12 days ago and again today, the Chief Rabbinate has called for people to
fast for rain.  How is this reconciled with the Mishnah in Taanit, paskened
in SA OC 575:2 that if by Rosh Chodesh Kislev there has been no rain, the
Bet Din decrees three fasts of Monday-Thursday-Monday?  In our case, the
fasts started later than the beginning of Kislev, and also weren't
Mon-Thurs-Mon in a row.  Also, the Rabbanut seems to be merely suggesting
that people fast, rather than saying that it is obligatory.

While there was one day where it rained in some places two months ago (or
so), I believe that the rain did not fulfill the conditions set out in
575:8.

Kol tuv,
Moshe
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20101129/ccb00868/attachment-0001.htm>

On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 01:24:33AM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: My question is: Why did she remain silent? Why didn't she say something
: like, "Keep your collateral. I am Tamar. I tricked you becuase I was tire
: of waiting for Shelah." But she didn't. Instead, she put her almanah's
: clothing back on, and pretended to continue waiting for Shelah. Why?
: 
: Here's my guess:
: Yibum today is different than back then....
: a                                    Could it be that another difference
: is that today only one act of biah is needed, after which they can
: divorce, while back then the goal was pregnancy. If I am correct, Tamar
: had to keep the illusion going, because if her first attempt failed,
: she might have to resort to such trickery again.

What is wrong with Chazal's assumption, that this is a textbook case
of someone trying to avoid being "malbin penei chaveiro" [MPC] (Sotah
10b, BM 58a-59a)?

(That first sentence originally read, "... to avoid halvanas penei
chaveirah" but I decided that traded clarity for precision.)

There is a machloqes rishonim as to whether the gemara's statement
"better to jump in a fire than to be MPC" is literal or guzmah. According
to Tosafos (Sotah ad loc), MPC is included in the yeihareig ve'al
ya'avor [YVY] of shefichas dam. And then one gets into lomdus about
whether dibbur is a maaseh in this regard, and therefore the YVY only
hypothetical. (Like the YVY nature of arayos doesn't apply to a woman
who made herself qarqa olam...)

The Me'iri (on both gemararos) is choleiq and says it's guzma to teach
some shemiras halashon.

But according to Tosafos, Tamar acted as per chiyuv.

Rabbeinu Yonah seems to hold like Tosafos. But, Rabbeinu Yonah might
too be using the same guzma the Me'iri says the gemara is. R' Yonah
writes more mussar than halakhah.

Embellishing on Chazal's theme...

Add to this that they assume that Yehudah knew he was destined to melukhah
-- he already deemed Yoseif a moreid bemalkhus -- and there is quite
amount of kavod at stake.

Given that Yehudah already showed a willingness to kill a moreid, Tamar
didn't even know if just stating his guilt would even save her.

But also, it means her problem went far beyond kavod hayachid. A melekh
may not be mokheil his kavod. (As Michal told Tamar's descendent, even
if she misunderstood "kavod" in that context.)

One last tidbit for the RYBS fans, from "The Community" (Tradition, Spring
1978 [17:2], pg 16):
    The Halakhah equated the act of publicly embarrassing a person with
    murder. Why? Because humiliation is tantamount to destroying an
    existential community and driving the individual into solitude. It
    is not enough for the charitable person to extend help to the
    needy. He must do more than that; he must try to restore to the
    dependant person a sense of dignity and worth. That is why we have
    developed special sensitivy regarding orphans and widows, since these
    persons are extremely sensistive and lose their self-confidence at
    the slightest provocation. The Bible warned us against afflicting
    an orphan and widow.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Good decisions come from experience;
mi...@aishdas.org        Experience comes from bad decisions.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Djoha, from a Sepharadi fable
Fax: (270) 514-1507

 From R' Chaim Brown's (CC-ed) blog Divrei Chaim
<http://divreichaim.blogspot.com>, here is an intriguing observation from
the entry at
http://divreichaim.blogspot.com/2010/11/role-of-nevuah-in-eyes-o
f-brisker.html .
(You might recall RCB from his time on Avodah, or as RYGB's brother-in-law.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

    One passage from Shiurim l'Zecher Aba Mori (vol 2 page 173, excuse
    my rough translation) struck me as especially illustrative of this
    narrow Brisker focus:

        I have always been troubled by the role and position of the
        prophet. On the one hand, we rule that a navi is prohibited from
        introducing innovation in halacha, from adding or detracting
        "even the crown of a letter yud;" on the other hand, Hashem
        communicated with the nevi'im, they prophesied, and their
        prophecy was written for all future generations. What purpose
        did their prophecy serve, given that they could introduce no
        halachic chiddush? True, they rebuked the nation, and to give
        rebuke is certainly one of the reasons prophets were sent. But
        still, I am troubled by the notion that their message should be
        completely devoid of halachic content.

    The Rav simply could not fathom that there could be a "cheftza"
    of the dvar Hashem seperate from the narrow universe of halacha. I
    read this to my son and he was dumbstruck. Kushya m'ikara leisa if
    you have not bought into the world of Brisk.

In what I think was a subtle response to the "you are a kofer" bear video
that went viral -- and if not, let /me/ connect them -- RDE (CC-ed)
posted the following
<http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/11/maharal-silencing-ques
tions-suppressing.html>
(a/k/a <http://bit.ly/gK1AAf>.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

    Friday, November 26, 2010
    Maharal: Silencing questions & suppressing dissent indicates a
    weak religion

    Daas Torah page 202

    Maharal (Be'er HaGolah #7): One should not reject something which
    is against one's views...especially if it is not presented as
    an attack on religion but is simply is an honest expression of
    the other person's understanding of faith. Even if it is against
    one's religious faith, he should not say, "Be quiet and shut your
    mouth." Because if one silences sincere questions there will not be
    a clarification of that person's religious understanding. In fact,
    such a person should be encouraged to speak and fully express how
    he feels. If sincere questions are silenced that is indicative that
    the religion is weak and needs to be protected from inquiry. This
    attitude is the opposite of what some people think. They mistakenly
    think that silencing questions strengthens religious faith. In
    fact however suppressing of dissent and questions indicates a weak
    religion. Thus, we find with our ancestors that even if they found
    something in books against religion they would not simply reject it...

Two more RDE blog entries:
1- http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/11/yeshiva-education-causes-low
-self.html
2- http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/11/rav-dessler-yeshiva-shoul
d-deny-self.html
(a/k/a <http://bit.ly/eWfrDd>.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

1- Saturday, November 27, 2010
   Yeshiva education causes low self-esteem & susceptibility to Internet
   addiction

   [Image of hakamah at <http://bit.ly/gBIUCX>. -micha]

   Just noticed this haskoma that Rav Reuven Feinstein gave to
   "Bringing Out the Best" by Rabbi Roll. The book describes how to
   build self-esteem based on the wisdom of the Alter of Slobadka. What
   is interesting is Rabbi Feinstein stating, "In yeshivos today there
   is literally a pandemic of low self-esteem. An outcome of this most
   horrible condition, is that once a person has achieved a state where
   self-worth and self-value are diminished, that person is literally open
   to all foreign pressures, both within and without our community. Once
   those pressures are given free reign, the outcome is without exception,
   negative."

   I asked someone who is a principal about this and he said simply it is
   a serious problem in the litvishe yeshivas but not in the chassidic
   or Sefardic ones. He said it is an inherent result of the elitist
   philosophy that if you are not the best in learning you are nothing. He
   agreed that this is a reflection of the success of the view espoused by
   Rav Dessler in Michtav M'Eliyahu. (search this blog for the translated
   source). In the chassidic and sefardic yeshiva systems it is possible
   to have self-esteem in ways other than being the top guy in learning.

   My question is since the pandemic of low self-esteem is apparently
   a direct and inevitable consequence of the yeshiva education itself
   than why is it being lamented? This is akin to the son who killed his
   parents and then pleads for mercy since he is an orphan. You can't
   deliberately develop an educational system that inevitably destroys
   self-esteem and then bemoan the fact that yeshiva kids go off the
   derech because they have low self-esteem.

   This is related to my recent post about the dangers of the Internet.
   While the yeshiva world is warning of the huge danger that the
   Internet presents to our communities - they seem to be ignoring the
   risk factors which make people susceptible to Internet addiction. One
   of them happens to be low self-esteem.

   In short, it is well within the capability of the yeshiva world to
   build up self esteem in their students and thus diminish the real
   dangers from the outside secular world - but they chose not to and
   instead focus on restricting access to the outside world. An exercise
   in futility.

2- Monday, November 29, 2010
   Rav Dessler: Yeshiva should deny self-esteem to those not fully
   involved in Torah study

   What follows is a partial translation of Rav Dessler (Michtav M'Eliyahu
   3 page 355-357 by Prof. Low. I have modified the translation in a
   number of places - in particular the last line.

        The Frankfurt school supported an educational system in which the
        students were exposed to the study of secular subjects and later
        went on to universities. At the same time it paid attention to
        the strict observance of all the mitzvot. The advantage of the
        system was that the vast majority of its adherents stayed Orthodox
        and carefully observed the ordinances of the Shulchan Aruch,
        despite the fact that they were exposed to a general non-Jewish
        intellectual environment.It is true that they [the Frankfurt
        School] benefited in that the number of defectors from mitzvah
        observance was small. The price paid for this was that few, if
        any, Gedolei Torah emerged from such an educational system. On
        the other hand, their weltanschauung was somewhat imperfect
        as far as the complete acceptance of the Torah point of view
        is concerned. Whenever there was a conflict between sciences
        and Torah, they resorted to a strange combination of the two,
        as if the two systems can be combined as a unity". Therefore,
        exposure to non-Jewish ideas affected to some extent the purity
        of their faith in the absolute truth of Torah, resulting in
        strange compromises.

        The Lithuanian Rashei Yeshivah, on the other hand, set as their
        main objective to educate Gedolei Torah, discouraging all contact
        with the intellectual world outside the yeshiva. They realized
        that the only way to achieve this was to concentrate all the
        energies of their students exclusively on Torah learning [and
        not to allow any alternative respectful goals.] They were well
        aware of the price they had to pay for this because they knew
        that many yeshivah students were not able to deal with this
        extreme lifestyle and would [and in fact did] leave religious
        observance. They tried as best they could to help those who
        could not remain in the yeshiva as bnei Torah.

        Those who had to leave the yeshivah world were advised to take low
        status jobs, for example as small businessmen - which required
        little if any training and were not inherently interesting -
        rather than as professionals . Those yeshivah students who did
        insist on going to study at University to be professionals or
        academics were therefore disregarded. The connection between
        Rashei Yeshivah and these Orthodox university students was severed
        in order to prevent their exercising a detrimental influence on
        the the rest of the yeshivah students. I heard that justification
        of the Rashei Yeshiva to pay such a heavy price to produce Gedolei
        Torah was Vayikra Rabbah 2:1, "One thousand students enter to
        study Mikra [Bible)... and only one emerges to hora'ah [halachic
        decision..making]. They also cited the words of the Rambam
        "It is better that 1000 fools die to obtain one genuine scholar."

   [It is important to note that the medrash cited by Rav Dessler
   does not support this program as it is simply describing natural
   attrition. It is not prescribing a program which might destroy the
   majority of students. Just as problematic, the Rambam never said the
   words attributed to him. The Rambam did say in Moreh Nevuchim that we
   teach the truth even if 1000 fools are messed up by misunderstanding
   the truth that we present them.The Rambam's words are the following:
   [translation by Prof S Pines] "To sum up: I am the man who when the
   concern pressed him and his way was straitened and he could find no
   other device by which to teach a demonstrated truth other than by
   giving satisfaction to a single virtuous man while displeasing ten
   thousand ignoramuses - I am he who prefers to address that single man
   by himself, and I do not heed the blame of those many creatures. For I
   claim to liberate that virtuous one from that into which he has sunk,
   and I shall guide him in his perplexity until he becomes perfect and
   he finds rest." The interpretation cited by Rav Dessler is actually
   from Shem Tov's commentary to the Moreh Nevuchim [page 10 of the
   standard edition] and is clearly not the intention of the Rambam.]

The following if from http://tinyurl.com/2bwjoha

Avraham Yosef, Rav of Cholon and son of Rav 
Ovadia Yosef,  "addressed R? Amsalem?s remarks 
directly saying 'Anyone who says that only those 
who are destined to become truly great in Torah 
should be sitting and learning is an 
apikores.  Those who learn Torah are the true 
soldiers who are fighting on the front lines and 
protecting us.  Without their learning, we have 
no continuity, there is no life to our 
soul.  Furthermore, those who live a life of 
poverty in order to learn Torah remove themselves 
from the gashmius of this world and are able to 
attain a higher level of spirituality.'"

I think it is instructive to contrast these 
remarks with following that are from Rav Dr. 
Yosef Breuer's essay "Vocation and Calling" that 
appears on pages 496 - 500 of Rav Breuer's Essays - A Unique Approach.

This, incidentally, brings to mind the oft-repeated question
whether it should not be welcomed if bachurim express the desire
to ?remain in learning.? ?Remain?? Should not everyone ?remain
in learning?? Evidently what is meant is the exclusive occupation
with Torah study. If this involves the student?s full-time occupation
with ?learning? for a period of several years before embarking
upon a professional career, such a decision should only be welcomed.
We would have serious misgivings, however, if the decision
of exclusive ?learning? would exclude any thought of a practical
preparation for the demands of life. Every profession requires
training. This may not be possible at a more advanced age. (The
chance of entering the firm of one?s future father-in-law where
further training is possible is not normally given to the average
student.) On the other hand, few possess the ability to become a
Rosh Yeshiva. To be able to ?learn? does not at all mean that one is
able to teach.

In this connotation, the following word of wisdom comes to
mind, albeit in a loftier, more far-reaching interpretation: ?Thousands
occupy themselves with the Written Teaching, but mere
hundreds emerge who actually possess it; tens occupy themselves
with the Talmud, but only one actually masters it ? and thus
muses Koheles: ?One man I found among thousands?? (Midrash
Rabbah Koheles 7).

In every case, the responsible officials of our Torah institutions
should carefully determine, after a given period of time, whether
the individual student possesses the qualifications to justify the
choice of Torah study as an occupation, or whether it would not be
necessary to suggest to him to concern himself with his professional
training (while, of course, continuing to be Koveah itim l'Torah). In many
of the latter cases the school officials would do well not to rely on
the self-judgment of the individual student.

Is it conceivable that the high praise that Tehillim (128) reserves
for the head of the family who labors and cares for his wife and
children would be directed only to the ?less gifted? among our
people? ?Happy is he who fears God, who walks in God?s ways??
true fear of God presupposes limud haTorah in the firm desire to apply
all Torah knowledge to a life devoted to the service of God; ?thus
he may enjoy (as Yoreh HaShem) the labors of his hands . . . happy is he, for
his is the good.? ?Love the labor?: this is the severe admonition of
the Sages (Pirkei Avos 1:10).

?Torah study that is unconnected with practical work ultimately
ceases to exist and results in transgression? (ibid. 2:2). This
means: He who fails to pursue his Parnasah while studying the Torah is
in danger of encountering economic difficulties that may not only
force him to abandon his Torah studies but even, because of the
lack of proper professional training,may cause him, in the quest for
Parnasah, to violate the great precepts of straightness and honesty that
must distinguish the bearers of Torah, if their lives are to serve as
Kiddush Hashem rather than belie the validity of God?s Torah (see
Orach Chayim 156).

We need the greats of Torah. But we also need men, solid b'nei
Torah, who prove themselves as conscientious Yehudim in every
type of profession, thus striving towards the lofty goal envisioned
by the faithful of our people: to serve with their lives, before all the
world, the sanctification of the Divine Will ? Kiddush Hashem.

I can only wonder how R. Avraham Yosef would 
react to what Rav Breuer wrote.  Would he 
consider Rav Breuer's words apikorsus?  I 
certainly hope not! Furthermore, R. Amsalem 
suggested that those learning study such things 
as shechita, safrus and Mila, whereas Rav Breuer 
talks of preparing for a profession without 
limiting this profession to these few areas.

In light of what Rav Breuer wrote did R. Amsalem really say anything wrong?

Yitzchok Levine 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20101129/ff1848ca/attachment-0001.htm>

From: Moshe Feldman 
> 12 days ago and again today, the Chief Rabbinate has called for people
> to fast for rain. How is this reconciled with the Mishnah in Taanit,
> paskened in SA OC 575:2 that if by Rosh Chodesh Kislev there has been no
> rain, the Bet Din decrees three fasts of Monday-Thursday-Monday? ...
>                                 Also, the Rabbanut seems to be merely
> suggesting that people fast, rather than saying that it is obligatory.

Were the rabbinate to call for an obligatory fast, would that obligate
everyone, meaning Jews in ROW as well? Are they obligated to say the
add-on in Shema Qolenu?

Ben

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 08:23:41PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
: Were the rabbinate to call for an obligatory fast, would that obligate
: everyone, meaning Jews in ROW as well? Are they obligated to say the
: add-on in Shema Qolenu?

I understood RMF to be saying that based on the gemara, beis din is chayav
to decree a fast. The concept of obligation is in their duty to make the
decree, not only in the content of that decree. The content is a given.

As per the Rambam's haqdamah to the Yad, nowadays a rav or beis din's
statement is only as binding as the community that accept his authority.
I don't know what you intend ROW to stand for, but if they don't accept
the authority of the CR, the answer would be "no".

BUT, since at this point every beis din carries the same chiyuv to make
such a call to their tzibbur, does it make a difference which BD's decree
they are following?

As for RMF's question... Does the fact that import-export is common,
albeit costly, and that agrarian income is only a small piece of Israel's
overall economy, give BD more room to wait for rain before declaring
taanios?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
mi...@aishdas.org        It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
http://www.aishdas.org   and helps us cope with adversity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507         - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"

On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 02:13:20PM +0100, Eli Turkel wrote:
: It is a matter of personal preference. I remember reading that a grandson
: (when he was little) complained that RYBS never sang zemirot while his other
: grandfather, the Talner rebbe did. It seems in Brisk zemirot were recited and
: not sung.

RYBS said of his own singing that despite the name Soloveitchik
(Nightingale), his family would probably have some other avodas haleviim
come bayis shelishi (bb"a!). So, there might have been a more prosaic
reason for that lack of singing, especially since RYBS phrased it (IIRC)
as a family failing.

: My entire family enjoys the various songs for piyutim for yamim noraim.
: One year we davened at a real yeshivish type minyan with kavannah and no
: songs and my family was disappointed.

It depends how you define kavanna.

You might be interested in my notes on tefillah behispaalus, where even
within Mussar's concept of hispaalus there are more musical (Novhardok),
more emotive (Ohr Yisrael) and more cognitive versions (Kelm). And
something you wouldn't necessarily have thought of -- visual (Slabodka).
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2010/10/tefillah-behitpaalut.shtml>

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Take time,
mi...@aishdas.org        be exact,
http://www.aishdas.org   unclutter the mind.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 27, Issue 206
***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."