Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 217

Sat, 11 Dec 2010

• 1. A Unique Contribution of Judaism (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Re: wife lighting menora (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: wife lighting menora (T6...@aol.com)
• 4. Mesorah? (Rich, Joel)
• 5. ishto ke-gufo (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: wife lighting menora (Micha Berger)
• 7. Chazal/Mtziut (Rich, Joel)
• 8. Re: Chazal/Mtziut (Micha Berger)
• 9. Just One HaShem in Heaven (Rich Wolberg)
• 10. Re: Just One HaShem in Heaven (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Are "Gedolim Stories" Good for Chinuch? (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Are "Gedolim Stories" Good for Chinuch? (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Just One HaShem in Heaven (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Mesorah? (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Chazal/Mtziut (Rich, Joel)
• 16. Re: Just One HaShem in Heaven (Zev Sero)
• 17. Re: Just One HaShem in Heaven (Micha Berger)
• 18. Re: Just One HaShem in Heaven (Zev Sero)

RSRH write the following on Bereishis

46 1 Yisrael set out with everything that he had 
and he came to Be?er Sheva, and he offered meal 
offerings to the God of his father
Yitzchak.

That is why Korban Shlamim , the ?peace offering? of a family life blessed
by God, is a distinctively Jewish offering. The idea of being absorbed
in God, being devoted to God, dawns also on non-Jewish minds. But
the idea that everyday life can become so thoroughly pervaded by the
spirit of God that one can eat and drink and, while doing so, behold
God (cf. Shemos 24:11); the idea that all our family rooms become
temples, our tables altars, and our young men and young women priests
and priestesses ? this spiritualization of everyday private life is a unique
contribution of Judaism.
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On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 02:58:44AM -0500, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: R' Rafi Goldmeier asked:
:> Where else do we find a wife being excluded from a mitzva because of the
:> exception of eeshto k'gufo? ...

: Of interest:
...
: http://tinyurl.com/236t85m

He mentions the Maharshal I already cited (thanks to VBM). However,
looking at the teshuvah, it's not clear why the fact that this is beyond
the chiyuv of neir ish ubeiso makes it different. I suggested two
pssibilities, but not in an organized contrast for people to comment
on. So, here it is, a few minutes after tzeis after Zos Chanukah:

1- Because it's not really a chiyuv, not even a single-hand mehadrin,
there isn't enough motivation to override ishto kegufo. I find this
weak because it doesn't explain why there is something to override,
just why this case is unique. But R' Henkin's previous paragraph notes
that ishto kegufo "is not mentioned in the context of personal
obligations" to begin with.

2- In reality the chiyuv is per bayis. As I wrote, to have a husband
and wife light separately implies a split in the bayis. I found this
logically stronger, but textually weaker. The more precise idiom for the
Maharshal to invoke would have been "'beiso' -- zu ishto" (Yuma 1:1),
not ishto kegufo.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
mi...@aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

 
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" _kennethgmiller@juno.com_ 
(mailto:kennethgmil...@juno.com) 


>>  On Chanukah, in all these cases, our practice (call it "minhag" or 
"mehadrin" or  whatever) is for each person to light their own lights, but it is 
not absolutely  required. Yet, each and every member of the family does try 
to light their own  anyway -- except for the wife. 

And on Shabbos, anyone could be the one  to light the lights for the house, 
but under typical circumstances, no one does  so, except for the wife.  <<



Akiva  Miller

 
>>>>
 
This comes up every year on Avodah.
 
In my home and in most yeshivish homes, only the husband lights.  In  many 
chassidishe homes, all the males light -- but not the girls.  On the  
frum-o-meter, as you go from left to right, the percentage of homes in which  
females light their own menorah decreases.
 
As for mother lighting Shabbos candles, it's true in most homes that mother 
 lights for everyone, but in Lub homes all girls light from the age of  
three.   (That's because Rivka lit at the age of three, and my husband  says, 
"If my daughters were married at the age of three, they'd light candles at  
age three, too!")
 
 

--Toby Katz
==========



-------------------- 




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Did Yaakov know of HKB"H's telling Avraham that his descendants would be strangers in a strange land?
KT

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<<In addition to the shitos RDB mentions in the "Women and Nerot Chanukah"
and "Women and Mehadrin" sections, note that in "Ner Ish U-Veito --
How Many Lights?" he notes that the Rambam's language (Chanukah 4:1)
implies that "ner ish ubeiso" is a chiyuv cheftza on the house, even if
one happens to go mehadrin and light one per inhabitant of that house.
That is an issue of number, not who is chayav.>>

According to the Rambam the baal habayit lights a number of candles equal to
those
in the house. I assume as Micha says that htis is an issue of number and
would
include the wife as a number.
i.e. husband, wife and 2 kids according to Rambam the husband lights
4*#of night candles


-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 03:31:11AM -0500, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: In my home and in most yeshivish homes, only the husband lights.  In  many 
: chassidishe homes, all the males light -- but not the girls.  On the  
: frum-o-meter, as you go from left to right, the percentage of homes in which  
: females light their own menorah decreases.

Continuing on RET... So why doesn't the yeshivish husband light for his
wife?

But I didn't ask what people did. I asked what the Maharshal meant when
saying that my wife neither had to light, nor did I have to light a
second menorah to represent her. Was he saying that af hein hayu be'oso
haneis isn't enough to mandate mehadrin? Or that it isn't enough to
override neir ish ubeiso -- beiso zu ishto? A nafqa mina would be whether
he is a source for lighting a neir for the single women and girls in
the house.

The menorah, it seems, is our way of implementing the Rama's solution
of doing both neir lekhol echad ve'echad and mosif veholeikh, how to
combine mehadrin and mehadrin min hamehadrin. The Rama was concerned
how we would distinguish, for example, between a home with two people
lighting on the first night, and a home with one person lighting on the
second. So the he says each person's mosif veholeikh needs to be lit
in its own grouping.

Was there a /more/ fundamental reason for a menorah?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
mi...@aishdas.org        exactly the right measure of himself,  and
http://www.aishdas.org   holds a just balance between what he can
Fax: (270) 514-1507      acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham

Someone asked on Hirhurim:

Can R' Gil Student or R' Joel Rich (or anyone with knowledge thereof) please expand on the point of "Chazal did not argue about mtziut"?

Is this an official shitta? Is there a counter-shitta? How long back (at
least) do you know offhand that this shitta, and if applicable
counter-shitta, exists for?

For those that have this shitta (of "Chazal did not argue about mtziut"),
how would they explain and justify it? How much discussion is there on this
point in the halachic or rabbinical literature

================

My first response would be that when there seems to be a stirah the gemara
usually doesn't answer on a factual chiluk but a theory one.  Is anyone
aware of any more detailed study/thoughts on this topic?
KT
Joel Rich
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On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 08:46:29AM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
: My first response would be that when there seems to be a stirah the
: gemara usually doesn't answer on a factual chiluk but a theory one.
: Is anyone aware of any more detailed study/thoughts on this topic?

FWIW, finding the root of a machloqes to be about metzius seems pretty
common in the Y-mi. One might say they are arguing about when one is
chosheid for certain cases, like maybe there is a deep machloqes about how
to define the word "norm" to apply to the metzi'us. I had this thought,
but haven't (yet) invested the time to see if it's viable.

(Speaking of Berakhos through Maaser Sheini. Just made a siyum! :-) )

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Education is not the filling of a bucket,
mi...@aishdas.org        but the lighting of a fire.
http://www.aishdas.org                - W.B. Yeats
Fax: (270) 514-1507

J.S. wrote: 
The linguist & author J.R.R. Tolkien "translated" the (Christian)
"Lord's Prayer" into one of his invented languages.  The prayer begins
with "Our Father, who Art in Heaven," but in the fictional culture in
which the language is based there is no conception of the "sky" (or
some generalization thereof) as the abode of God.

With the establishment of the State of Israel, the prayer for its welfare
beginning with Avinu Shebashamayim was composed and approved by the Chief
Rabbinate of Israel and incorporated into the service. It is obviously a
metaphor, but it is not alien to our theology.

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 06:58:02AM -0500, Rich Wolberg wrote:
: With the establishment of the State of Israel, the prayer for its
: welfare beginning with Avinu Shebashamayim was composed and approved by
: the Chief Rabbinate of Israel and incorporated into the service. It is
: obviously a metaphor, but it is not alien to our theology.

It was written by SY Agnon and approved (with editing) by the then-CR R'
Yitzchaq haLevi Herzog. And there are members fo the chevrah who wouldn't
assume that has the authority to prove it's within their theology.


There are two seeming conflicts that most O Jews are taught in preschool
and never think about long enough to notice that there is an apparent
conflict to address. The resolution for each could be found trivially
in seconds. I'm not saying these are paradoxes -- at most they are
dialectics. (By which I'm trying to say: Two ways of looking at things
due to the richness and complexity of the human condition.)

What bothers me is the lack of consideration of the two most fundamental
questions in Judaism. And actually the chassid - misnagdic split is
primarily about which side of each dialetic is emphasized.

1- Transcendence vs Immanence
    G-d is in heaven.
    G-d is everywhere.

BTW, I named this thread "Just One Hashem in Heaven" because that was a
line in a song I learned in nursery school. My kids' generation learned
from Uncle Moishy (R' Moshe Tannanbaum, who is a Belzer (?) Chassid,
which might be relevent) that "Hashem is here, Hashem is there, Hashem
is truly everywhere." Thus, to me the quote reflects this dialectic.

(Tangent: the song rhymed heaven with the commandments being "10 but
not 11". The modern version has "Hashem who can't be seen" -- preserving
transcendence as a lesson to our youth -- which then rhymes "613".)

2- The ideal state of man - Sheleimus vs Deveiqus
    Mitzvos provide a path to completeness, to wholeness, to making one's
        Tzelem E-lokim manifest.
    Mitzvos are the route to cleaving to G-d, they allow us to connect to
        Him.

And historically, there were other definitions of the ideal state. The
Rambam's focus on Knowing G-d, rather than a passionate / experiential
cleaving. The Ramchal's notion that the goal in this world is to become
someone capable of the most deveiqus he can obtain in the next. Etc...

The two dialectics are related -- if one focuses on Transcendance, one
can't realy provide a Deveiqus oriented approach to mitzvos. G-d can't
both be primarily viewed as removed and as approachable.

There is also a pragmatic difference, eg when assessing the relative value
of kavanah in prayer (deveiqus) vs praying in its proper time (sheleimus).

But in any case, it's easy to resolve both dialectics, at least on the
intellectual plane. What bothers me is the lack of thought demonstrated
by my having to point out that the apparent conflicts exist. That a rav
can say either one in a derashah and get knowing nods from the audience,
who aren't thinking critically enough to recall the other.

Thus the machashavah side of AishDas's mission statement.

So, is "Hashem is in heaven" in our theology? Yes, but within dialectic
tension with "Hashem is in everywhere." The question we were discussing,
though, was when shamayim split in meaning, since "Hashem is in the sky"
in particular (except as part of His being everywhere) is not.

A number of us suggested that from day 1, "shamayim" was a general
concept that had two existing instances. As I put it, "shamayim" is very
plausibly translated "there-ness" -- and both the sky / space and the
spiritual heaven are unreachable "There"s.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             We are great, and our foibles are great,
mi...@aishdas.org        and therefore our troubles are great --
http://www.aishdas.org   but our consolations will also be great.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabbi AY Kook

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 08:35:13AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
> The following is one small selection from the article at  
> http://tinyurl.com/29y7utt by Rabbi Simcha Feuerman.
>
> This article is not the first about some the negative aspects of Gedolim 
> books. Rabbi Aharon Feldman wrote about this topic in an article that 
> appeared in the Jewish Observer in 1994.  Please see the article at 
> http://www.yutorah.org/showShiur.cfm?shiurID=704426 pages 213 - 214 for 
> what Rabbi Dr. J. J. Schacter wrote about Rabbi Feldman's comments.
>
> The following comments by Rabbi Feuerman were for me particularly  
> striking, because they relate to a famous story about one of my "heroes."

Here's my problem...

1- The previous article had a problem with drawing too superlative of
of a picture of our gedolim, without showing their humanness, because
this turns the gedolim into another kind of being rather than a role
model you can emulate.

2- This essay discusses the dangers of telling stories of them doing
things that are within our reach, because
> Of course these stories model acts of compassion and decency, and  
> deserve recognition.  Sadly though, I fear there is a hidden and subtle 
> message of surprise being conveyed along with these stories, as they 
> suggest that basic human compassion and decency is an astounding ethical 
> feat...

So what's left? Not having role models at all?

>                         Either we are surprised to see great people 
> behave in a human and kindhearted manner, or we consider it to be an act 
> that only a true tzaddik can achieve.

Or, that even the great and powerful "stoop" to do small kindnesses for
the little guy -- why don't you?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The worst thing that can happen to a
mi...@aishdas.org        person is to remain asleep and untamed."
http://www.aishdas.org          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 08:35:13AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
> The following is one small selection from the article at  
> http://tinyurl.com/29y7utt by Rabbi Simcha Feuerman.
>
> This article is not the first about some the negative aspects of Gedolim 
> books. Rabbi Aharon Feldman wrote about this topic in an article that 
> appeared in the Jewish Observer in 1994.  Please see the article at 
> http://www.yutorah.org/showShiur.cfm?shiurID=704426 pages 213 - 214 for 
> what Rabbi Dr. J. J. Schacter wrote about Rabbi Feldman's comments.
>
> The following comments by Rabbi Feuerman were for me particularly  
> striking, because they relate to a famous story about one of my "heroes."

Here's my problem...

1- The previous article had a problem with drawing too superlative of
of a picture of our gedolim, without showing their humanness, because
this turns the gedolim into another kind of being rather than a role
model you can emulate.

2- This essay discusses the dangers of telling stories of them doing
things that are within our reach, because
> Of course these stories model acts of compassion and decency, and  
> deserve recognition.  Sadly though, I fear there is a hidden and subtle 
> message of surprise being conveyed along with these stories, as they 
> suggest that basic human compassion and decency is an astounding ethical 
> feat...

So what's left? Not having role models at all?

>                         Either we are surprised to see great people 
> behave in a human and kindhearted manner, or we consider it to be an act 
> that only a true tzaddik can achieve.

Or, that even the great and powerful "stoop" to do small kindnesses for
the little guy -- why don't you?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The worst thing that can happen to a
mi...@aishdas.org        person is to remain asleep and untamed."
http://www.aishdas.org          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 10/12/2010 6:58 AM, Rich Wolberg wrote:
  
> With the establishment of the State of Israel, the prayer for its
> welfare beginning with Avinu Shebashamayim was composed and approved
> by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel and incorporated into the service. It
> is obviously a metaphor, but it is not alien to our theology.

"Boruch Hashem Le`olom", which Nusach Ashkenaz and "Sefard" (in chu"l)
say every weeknight, includes "Elokeinu shebashomayim".  The discussion
here has not been about "whether" but about "why".

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

On 9/12/2010 10:25 PM, Rich, Joel wrote:
> Did Yaakov know of HKB"H's telling Avraham that his descendants would be strangers in a strange land?

Surely he did.  I see no reason why Avraham would have kept it secret.
And the "ketz" of 400 years seems to have been known to the Jews in
Egypt, because the Bnei Efraim mistook the date and left 30 years early.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 08:46:29AM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
: My first response would be that when there seems to be a stirah the
: gemara usually doesn't answer on a factual chiluk but a theory one.
: Is anyone aware of any more detailed study/thoughts on this topic?

FWIW, finding the root of a machloqes to be about metzius seems pretty
common in the Y-mi. One might say they are arguing about when one is
chosheid for certain cases, like maybe there is a deep machloqes about how
to define the word "norm" to apply to the metzi'us. I had this thought, but
haven't (yet) invested the time to see if it's viable.

(Speaking of Berakhos through Maaser Sheini. Just made a siyum! :-) )

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Mazal Tov on the Siyum! Your hesber is similar to the one R' M Rosensweig
posited when I asked him this question relating to the machloket as to how
many hours witnesses could be off and still be considered as a pair of
witnesses.

KT
Joel Rich
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On 10/12/2010 12:37 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>  My kids' generation learned
> from Uncle Moishy (R' Moshe Tannanbaum, who is a Belzer (?) Chassid,
> which might be relevent) that "Hashem is here, Hashem is there, Hashem
> is truly everywhere." Thus, to me the quote reflects this dialectic.

The song was popularised (and perhaps written) by "Uncle Yossi", AKA
R Yosef Goldstein, long-time principal of Beis Yaacov in Borough Park,
and a Lubav.  The tune is a traditional L niggun.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 01:06:31PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> The song was popularised (and perhaps written) by "Uncle Yossi", AKA
> R Yosef Goldstein, long-time principal of Beis Yaacov in Borough Park,
> and a Lubav.  The tune is a traditional L niggun.

Glad to help you bring the ge'ulah to the world. In any case, it still
my point that "Hashem is everywhere" was logically enough coined by a
chassid, for whom Immanence is given more emphasis than Transcendance
in daily avodah.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

On 10/12/2010 2:04 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 01:06:31PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
>> The song was popularised (and perhaps written) by "Uncle Yossi", AKA
>> R Yosef Goldstein, long-time principal of Beis Yaacov in Borough Park,
>> and a Lubav.  The tune is a traditional L niggun.
>
> Glad to help you bring the ge'ulah to the world. In any case, it still
> my point that "Hashem is everywhere" was logically enough coined by a
> chassid, for whom Immanence is given more emphasis than Transcendance
> in daily avodah.

I'm not so sure about that.  L chassidus is primarily about transcending
that gap (and the laws of logic which dictate its existence) and bringing
the Transcendent (Sovev Kol Almin) into this world where it logically
can't exist.  That the purpose of the whole creation was to transcend
this gap, and create for Him (i.e. as He really is) a residence davka
in the physical world, which is impossible.

To get topical, this leads into the LR's answer to the BY's famous
question why Chanukah lasts eight days and not seven: The miracle of
Chanukah was that the oil was normal physical olive oil, and burned at
the normal rate for such oil, and no more oil was being created, and yet
it lasted eight days.  Most miracles break the physical laws of our
universe, but this one broke the logical law that ought to bind all
possible universes, Aristotle's Law of Non-Contradiction.  So did the
miracle of "mekom ha'aron eino min hamidah".  And this is because the
light of Sovev briefly pierced into this world of Memalei Kol Almin.
The purpose of all our avodah is to make that paradoxical miracle
permanent, and visible to  all.

But we're really over-analysing this.  The song was written to accompany
a story for children about how Hashem is always watching us, even if
nobody else is.  It's there to teach a practical lesson, not high-flying
concepts of theology.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher


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