Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 218

Mon, 13 Dec 2010

• 1. Re: Chazal/Mtziut (Yitzchok Zirkind)
• 2. Re: Mesorah? (Yitzchok Zirkind)
• 3. Re: Mesorah? (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: Just One HaShem in Heaven (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 5. Re: Mesorah? (Zev Sero)
• 6. Pronunciation of Emet (Allan Engel)
• 7. Re: Pronunciation of Emet (Micha Berger)
• 8. role models (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: Pronunciation of Emet (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Pronunciation of Emet (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Pronunciation of Emet (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Pronunciation of Emet (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Just One HaShem in Heaven (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 14. Re: Babylonian Jewry and Chanukah (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 15. Re: Babylonian Jewry and Chanukah (Prof. Levine)
• 16. Re: Chazal/Mtziut (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Mesorah? (Micha Berger)
• 18. Re: Mesorah? (Zev Sero)
• 19. Re: Unusual Chanukah Minhag? (Simon Wanderer)

See Sdei Chemed, Kllolim, Ma'areches haMem Kllal 164. (I assume can be found
on line @ hebrewbooks.org etc.)

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 08:46:29AM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
> : My first response would be that when there seems to be a stirah the
> : gemara usually doesn't answer on a factual chiluk but a theory one.
> : Is anyone aware of any more detailed study/thoughts on this topic?
>
> FWIW, finding the root of a machloqes to be about metzius seems pretty
> common in the Y-mi. One might say they are arguing about when one is
> chosheid for certain cases, like maybe there is a deep machloqes about how
> to define the word "norm" to apply to the metzi'us. I had this thought,
> but haven't (yet) invested the time to see if it's viable.
>
> (Speaking of Berakhos through Maaser Sheini. Just made a siyum! :-) )
>
> :-)BBii!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger             Education is not the filling of a bucket,
> mi...@aishdas.org        but the lighting of a fire.
> http://www.aishdas.org                - W.B. Yeats
> Fax: (270) 514-1507
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> Avodah mailing list
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>



-- 
Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind
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See Rashi D"H Vlo Yachla Breishis 36:7.

Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 10:25 PM, Rich, Joel <JR...@sibson.com> wrote:

>  Did Yaakov know of HKB"H's telling Avraham that his descendants would be
> strangers in a strange land?
> KT
>
>
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On 9/12/2010 10:25 PM, Rich, Joel wrote:
> Did Yaakov know of HKB"H's telling Avraham that his descendants would be strangers in a strange land?

Surely he did.  I see no reason why Avraham would have kept it secret.
And the "ketz" of 400 years seems to have been known to the Jews in Egypt, because the Bnei Efraim mistook the date and left 30 years early.

--------------------
And how do you understand the drasha that Yaakov came "lagur" and not
"lhishtakea"  or the way HKB"H tells him he will bring him back (without
mentioning it's just for burial) - perhaps he didn't think it would be his
generation?
KT
Joel Rich
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R' Micha Berger wrote:

> There are two seeming conflicts that most O Jews are taught in preschool
> and never think about long enough to notice that there is an apparent
> conflict to address. The resolution for each could be found trivially in
> seconds. I'm not saying these are paradoxes - at most they are dialectics.
> (By which I'm trying to say: Two ways of looking at things due to the
> richness and complexity of the human condition.)

When I read this paragraph, I tried to anticipate which two conflicted ideas you'd be referring to. The paradox that I came up with was:

1) HaShem is in heaven
2) HeShem created heaven

> A number of us suggested that from day 1, "shamayim" was a general concept
> that had two existing instances. As I put it, "shamayim" is very plausibly
> translated "there-ness" -- and both the sky / space and the spiritual
> heaven are unreachable "There"s.

I would resolve it by saying that the two meanings of "shamayim" are:

1) The metaphysical world which is unreachable by us, yet still a creation of Hashem's.
2) Everything beyond our physical world, including both the metaphysical world and HaShem Himself.

(Words *can* have these double meanings, such as "yad", which can mean either the arm as a whole or just the hand.)

I don't know if this clarifies anything, or muddies it, or if I've totally misunderstood RMB and taken it in an entirely different direction.

Akiva Miller

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> On 9/12/2010 10:25 PM, Rich, Joel wrote:
>>> Did Yaakov know of HKB"H's telling Avraham that his descendants would be strangers in a strange land?
>
>> Surely he did.  I see no reason why Avraham would have kept it secret.
>> And the "ketz" of 400 years seems to have been known to the Jews in Egypt, because the Bnei Efraim mistook the date and left 30 years early.

> And how do you understand the drasha that Yaakov came "lagur" and not
> "lhishtakea"

They didn't intend to make Mizrayim their home.  They came to stay however
long they had to, whether that was 180 years or 210 or 400, and then get
out.


>  or the way HKB"H tells him he will bring him back (without mentioning
> it's just for burial)

"veyosef yashis yado al einecha" implies that he knew very well that he
wouldn't be coming back alive.


>  perhaps he didn't think it would be his generation?

That could also be.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

Why, alone among segolate nouns, is Emet pronounced mil'ra?

The obvious answer is that the vowel on the alef is a chataph-segol, which
cannot be stressed, but this just changes the question to 'why is there a
chataph-segol on the aleph'?
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On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 12:27:15PM +0000, Allan Engel wrote:
: Why, alone among segolate nouns, is Emet pronounced mil'ra?
...
: The obvious answer is that the vowel on the alef is a chataph-segol, which
: cannot be stressed, but this just changes the question to 'why is there a
: chataph-segol on the aleph'?

Emes isn't a segolate noun. The alef's chataf-segol is a form of sheva
na, not a form of segol.

It might be more accurate to define "segolate noun" as part of a
broad category in which the first vowel gets emphasis, and ignore the
actual segols. All such words (that I can think of) get a sheva-qamatz
vowelization in the plural. Nefesh -> nifashos, but also zera` -> zira`im.

It's just entirely outside this class of nouns, despite how it sounds
to people who aren't careful with chataph.

In Yiddish, this is why "sefer" (Heb) becomes "seifer" (Yid), but
"emes" says "emes".

Now for why... Emes is probably from the same shoresh as amein (BDB thinks
so). The sav is a suffix, and the nun dropped off. The stress in "eMES"
is on what is in theory the penultimate syllable, not the last one. But
the hypothetical "emenet" would have been segolate.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
mi...@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Rav Soloveitchik had a drasha on last week's parsha that Yehuda and
Yosef were fighting over "malchus". Yehuda repressents gevurah, one who
can sin and do teshuva and rise again after defeat. Yosef represents
"tzaddik" who
is able to resist temptation from the beginning.
G-d decided that the appropriate model for a king is yehuda and eventually
King David
who demonstrated the real teshuva after Bat Sheva.

Thus, the answer of a role model is that there are many types of role models
that
fit different personalities and situations. Yosef HaTzaddik is a beautiful
role model
but ultimately was not chosen to be king. Children (and adults) need to
learn that there are
many ways to worship G-d and not just what appears in gedolim books. I have
seen a
number of times the explanation that the Torah consists of 613 mitzvot to
give everyone
a chance to choose what area to specialize in. Thus, while everyone is
required to keep
all relevant mitzvot one can choose to be extra careful in some area that
fits each person.

I remember a story about some gadol that saw a rich charitable man starting
to get up early,
learn and eat little. The rav went to him and said that the rich man
provided goods for the
army. What happens if someone leaves the cavalry to join the artillery. The
rich man answered
that the soldier would be shot. The rav responded that the rich man was
assigned to give charity
and would be "shot" if he deserted to the poor scholar role.
The rav later explained to his students that he was afraid that if the rich
man started skimping
he would feel that the poor could do with even less.

Thus, IMHO the problem is not that role models are too rosy etc. but rather
that there is a lack
of choices in role models


-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 12/12/2010 9:26 AM, Micha Berger wrote:

> In Yiddish, this is why "sefer" (Heb) becomes "seifer" (Yid), but
> "emes" says "emes".

What is "sefer"?  A number?  Is this even a word in pre-modern Hebrew?
A book, of course, is "seifer" in Hebrew, and therefore also in Yiddish.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 10:35:26AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> What is "sefer"?  A number?  Is this even a word in pre-modern Hebrew?

Yeah, among Sepharadim. Bad example. Agreed.

Howabout Dovid haMeilikh?
Or attending a seider on Peisach?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 12/12/2010 4:35 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 10:35:26AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
>> What is "sefer"?  A number?  Is this even a word in pre-modern Hebrew?
>
> Yeah, among Sepharadim. Bad example. Agreed.
>
> Howabout Dovid haMeilikh?

Only in Polish and/or Hungarian Yiddish (one of those non-Litvish dialects,
anyway), AFAIK.  But OK.

> Or attending a seider on Peisach?

No, that's a tzeirei in Hebrew too.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 05:18:17PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
>> Or attending a seider on Peisach?

> No, that's a tzeirei in Hebrew too.

No, it's Pesach.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

R' ZS:
"Boruch Hashem Le`olom", which Nusach Ashkenaz and "Sefard" (in chu"l)
say every weeknight, includes "Elokeinu shebashomayim".  The discussion
here has not been about "whether" but about "why".
------------


Yasiv, Rava Achvi L'shmei T'lala, Abaya Nafak L'vra Achvi Klapei Shmaya.

KT,
MYG

R' YL: 
There was a large Jewish population living in Babylonia during the time
that the events of Chanukah played out. Yet, I have never seen any mention
of the Jews living in Bavel coming to the assistance of the Jews in EY
during their struggle with the Syrian-Greeks. Why is this? Surely at least
some of the news of what was transpiring in EY must have reached the Jews
in Bavel.  Why didn't they either come to help or at least send assistance?
--------------------



KT,
MYG

At 12:26 AM 12/13/2010, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
 >R' YL:
 >There was a large Jewish population living in Babylonia during the
 >time that the events of Chanukah played out. Yet, I have never seen
 >any mention of the Jews living in Bavel coming to the assistance of
 >the Jews in EY during their struggle with the Syrian-Greeks. Why is
 >this? Surely at least some of the news of what was transpiring in EY
 >must have reached the Jews in Bavel.  Why didn't they either come to
 >help or at least send assistance?
 >--------------------
 >
Who says they didn't?

KT,
MYG

I am looking for evidence to show that Babylonian Jewry did indeed 
assist the Jews in EY during their struggle with the Syrian/Greeks. 
WADR, I fail to see how your response sheds any light on the answer 
to my question.

YL
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On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 03:03:41PM -0500, Yitzchok Zirkind wrote:
: See Sdei Chemed, Kllolim, Ma'areches haMem Kllal 164. (I assume can be found
: on line @ hebrewbooks.org etc.)

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14145&;st=&pgnum=274
and the next page
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14145&;st=&pgnum=275

Just printed it up for the commute home, and thought someone else may
want to.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 02:49:20PM -0500, Yitzchok Zirkind wrote:
: See Rashi D"H Vlo Yachla Breishis 36:7.

Nu, so Yaaqov expected the galus.

What about Rashi on the title word of parashas VaYeishev, that Yaaqov
was hoping to be done with all the nisyonos in his life? Did Yaaqov
think the galus would start after his petirah?


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If a person does not recognize one's own worth,
mi...@aishdas.org        how can he appreciate the worth of another?
http://www.aishdas.org             - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef

On 13/12/2010 4:36 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 02:49:20PM -0500, Yitzchok Zirkind wrote:
> : See Rashi D"H Vlo Yachla Breishis 36:7.
>
> Nu, so Yaaqov expected the galus.
>
> What about Rashi on the title word of parashas VaYeishev, that Yaaqov
> was hoping to be done with all the nisyonos in his life? Did Yaaqov
> think the galus would start after his petirah?

Why not?  We know that he knew the ultimate Ketz, but what else did he
know?  Perhaps he thought the 400-year galus wouldn't start until 5371!
Alternatively, *we* know that the 400-year galus had already started
sixty years before Yaacov's birth; perhaps he knew this too, or at least
guessed that it might be so, and hoped that he had hit an easy patch
within it (as he eventually did, for the last 17 years of his life).


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

A chasidish acquaintance has told
me  (and this fits with an off-list email) that the minhag is to throw the towels at the menorah, although the person lighting is hit in the crossfire. 

The reason for the minhag is apparently to 'make a joke' of the shul hadlakah so that nobody mistakenly thinks they are yotze and don't need to light at home. 

-- SW

On 7 Dec 2010, at 14:53, "Arie Folger" <afol...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> RSW asked:
>> At hadlakas neiros, a crowd gathered, holding towels,
>> around the madlik and the menorah. As he is about to
>> start lighting, everyone throws the towels at him and the
>> menorah.
>> <SNIP>
>> 1- Is anyone familiar with this minhag and who it is practiced by?
> 
> Yes, Chassidim practice this. They would throw the towel on the
> shamash (the person). My late father opposed this practice, so one
> year, in the Pzsworzke Stiebl in Antwerp, he collected all the towels
> and hid them, so that the only towel left in the house was the
> rebbe's, Reb Itzikl. So, R'Itzikl took his own towel, and personally
> threw it on the shamash.
> 
> Unfortunately, I cannot help you with either sources or a rational. I
> understand Jeckische Minhoggim a lot better. ;-)
> 
> KT,
> -- 
> Arie Folger,
> Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
> * Basler Gymnasium experimentiert mit Chawrut?-Lernen
> * Where Will We Find Refuge ... from technology overload
> * Video-Vortrag: Psalm 34
> * We May Have Free Will, After All
> * Equal Justice for All
> * Brutal Women of Nazi Germany
> * Gibt es in der Unterhaltungsliteratur eine Rolle f?r G"tt?

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