Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 57

Tue, 12 Apr 2011

• 1. The Singular Way Of Saying Kaddish (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Re: women leaning at seder (Daniel M. Israel)
• 3. Re: women leaning at Seder (Doron Beckerman)
• 4. Re: women leaning at seder (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 5. Re: Chometz milking question (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 6. R. Chaim Volozhiner and Putting on Rabbeinu Tam Tefillin (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: Chometz milking question (S G)
• 8. Re: women leaning at seder (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 9. Re: R. Chaim Volozhiner and Putting on Rabbeinu Tam Tefillin (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: The Singular Way Of Saying Kaddish (SBA Gmail)
• 11. Re: Chometz milking question (SBA Gmail)
• 12. Re: Chometz milking question (Zev Sero)
• 13. Ovens (Rich, Joel)
• 14. Re: Women and Tallis (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Live Bird and Dead Bird (Micha Berger)
• 16. Torah Reading Without A Kohen (Prof. Levine)
• 17. Re: R. Chaim Volozhiner and Putting on Rabbeinu Tam Tefillin (Daniel M. Israel)

At 10:27 AM 4/11/2011, Chana Luntz wrote:

>Hold on, I detect some Ashkenocentric assertions here.  The custom (whether
>one regards it as mistaken or not) is only less than 200 years old *in
>Ashkenaz*.  It appears generally acknowledged (see eg Chatam Sofer chelek
>Orech Chaim siman 309 - who did not approve of introducing it) that this was
>always the case amongst the Sephardim.  Rav Ya'akov Emden (who did approve
>of it) IIRC records having seen it amongst the Sephardim when his father was
>Rav in Turkey. But I agree that in Ashkenaz it appears to have made its
>appearance late. Pischei Teshuva on Yoreh De'ah 376 s.k. 6 cites the
>existence of this view and it is also mentioned in the Kitzur Shulchan Arukh
>26:18 as being a way of avoiding machlokus, but I am not aware of anyone
>earlier.

Please see the detailed discussion on the development of Kaddish 
Yasom at http://tinyurl.com/64g7dlv and in particular the discussion 
under the heading SEPHARADIC ATTITUDES TOWARD KADDISH, ADOPTION OF 
GROUP KADDISH  YL
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Quoting Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>:
> Ashkenazi women usually don't lean at the seder based on the Raaviya.
> Since we don't pasken like the Raaviya does this mean that women should lean
> lechatchila and only bideved they rely on the Raaviya? My personal
> observations are that women do not lean lechatchila - what is the  
> justification?

I will, bli neder, try to find my source when I get home, but my  
recollection is that in fact we are not consistent: we say that women  
rely on the shita of the Raaviya, even though we don't pasken that way  
for men.  Of course, this only comes up because we also hold that all  
women today are chashuvah, otherwise they would be patur anyway.

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
dan...@cornell.edu

RSZA explains that in reality it isn't derech cheirus for anyone to lean
today, as per the Raavyah. . The other Rishonim hold that nevertheless the
Takanas Chazal was not cancelled.

Since men *uniformly* leaned in the time of Chazal, they can't make use of
what should be the baseline Halachah - like the Raavyah. They are bound by
the Takanas Chazal. But for women, who did not *all* lean in the times of
Chazal, since many were subservient, there is no Chazal-dated established
uniform minhag of women leaning, so, despite all being chashuvos
*today*, they can rely on the Raavyah lechatchila, who says that *today* it
isn't Derech Cheirus at all.

"V'davar Zeh Hu Emes La'amito B'pshat."
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R' Eli Turkel asked:

> Ashkenazi women usually don't lean at the seder based on the
> Raaviya. Since we don't pasken like the Raaviya does this mean
> that women should lean lechatchila and only bideved they rely
> on the Raaviya? My personal observations are that women do not
> lean lechatchila - what is the justification?

I saw this *exact* question over Shabbos in the Halichos Shlomo of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach.

IF I recall correctly, he said that at a certain point in history, the
status of women changed. And *if* they would have had this status earlier,
then Chazal would have required them to lean. But they didn't, and
therefore they were never included in the original takana, and technically,
they don't really need the Raaviya to begin with. But now that they do have
this status, Raaviya provides a convenient explanation of why they did not
voluntarily *begin* leaning.

I found it very interesting that RSZA specified the time period of this new
status for women as being the time of Rabbenu Gershom. In retrospect, it
makes perfect sense. But I don't recall Rabbenu Gershom being mentioned in
this context before. (Or maybe it's just my memory that's going bad. I hope
I'll remember to check all this tonight, and to post the exact cite in the
Halichos Shlomo.)

Akiva Miller

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R' Eliyahu Grossman asked:

> Ok, here in Israel, starting this week, all cows will be given
> only kitniyot to eat - no chometz.
> Around the rest of the world, they don't do that.

You are presuming that if the cows would eat chometz right up until Pesach
then there would be a problem with the milk that they produce. And maybe
there would be. Or maybe it is just a practical step in the process of
cleaning the area to insure that no chometz grains fall into the milk on
Chol Hamoed.

R' Zev Sero wrote:

> Around the rest of the world, milk is not produced for the Jewish
> market on Pesach.  We buy all our milk before Pesach, so that
> anything that might somehow have got into it will have become
> batel.  Those who are super-careful strain it to be sure that
> there is no solid foreign matter in it, which would not be batel.

In my part of the world (New Jersey) those who drink Cholov Hacompanies can
find plenty of it during Chol Hamoed with an OUP on it, and my (totally
ignorant) guess is that it is pretty fresh.

Those who drink only Cholov Yisroel can also find plenty of certified
Kosher L'Pesach milk in the stores on Chol Hamoed, though I suppose it's
possible that it was all stored at the dairy from Erev Pesach, with the
Chol Hamoed prodiction being released only after yom tov.

Which communities strain their milk? I remember some people in Yerushalayim
who stored large quantities of drinking water prior to Pesach (so that any
chometz would be batel) but I never heard of straining milk.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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Someone sent me the following:

A famous story about R. Chaim Volozhiner, when asked why he didn't 
put on Rabbeinu Tam t'fillin: "The din says that unless one is a 
chosid, he shouldn't, because it's mechazei k'yuhara.  If I'll come 
before the Beis Din shel Ma'ala and be asked, 'Chayim, you were a 
chosid, why didn't you put on Rabbeinu Tam's t'fillin?,' I'll have an 
excuse: I didn't think I was a chosid.  But if I were to be asked, 
'Chayim, you weren't a chosid, why _did_ you put on Rabbeinu Tam's 
t'fillin?,' what excuse will I have?"


Yitzchok Levine 
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From: Eliyahu Grossman <Eliy...@KosherJudaism.com>
Subject: [Avodah] Chometz milking question

Ok, here in Israel, starting this week, all cows will be given only kitniyot
to eat - no chometz.

Around the rest of the world, they don't do that.

I have asked around and I get a blank stare from people who have never heard
that we do this, and from a few people who are mashgichim that I know (I let
them know up front that even though I live in Israel, I eat non-cholav
Israel from non-Israel products very often) I don't really get a definitive
answer. I will query some more authoritative poskim here, but I thought I'd
toss that out there as an interesting Pesach question.

Eliyahu Grossman
Efrat, Israel

------------------
My son has a supermarket in Flatbush. The other day a Russian woman was in
the store and she was
reminiscing about life in Russia, and she mentioned this, that a week before
Pesach they stoped giving Chometz
to the cows.

S. G.
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This is a followup to my previous post, where I mentioned that Rav Shlomo
Zalman Auerbach mentions the question of why women seem to rely on Raaviya
but men don't. Having double-checked, I think I summarized his view fairly
well. Those who have the Halichos Shlomo can see it in the "D'var Halacha"
section there, 9:40.

The "Orchos Halacha" section there, 9:131, seems to say this can also be
found in Halichos Bas Yisrael, chap. 23, footnote 50. One error I made was
that the connection to Rabenu Gershom was made not by RSZA, but by his son
Rav Avraham Dov, the Gaava"d of Tiverya.

Akiva Miller


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On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 06:05:18PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Someone sent me the following:
> A famous story about R. Chaim Volozhiner, when asked why he didn't put on 
> Rabbeinu Tam t'fillin: "The din says that unless one is a chosid, he 
> shouldn't, because it's mechazei k'yuhara...."

Does this mean the Gra, who his talmidim (including RCV) called "HaGaon
haChassid" (sometimes "haGaon haChassid haAmiti", in true misnagid style),
*did* wear Rabbeinu Tam tefillin?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com"
R' Zev Sero asked:> Mino hani mili?  Where is such a requirement written?  I
know that
> kaddish requires the presence of a minyan, but I have not yet seen
> it written anywhere (well, except in the previous email) that one
> needs even one listener, let alone nine.

Ayen KSA 15:7 saying there should be 9 'oynim' - but at least 5 (or 6?)

SBA
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From: Zev Sero
Around the rest of the world, milk is not produced for the Jewish market
on Pesach.  We buy all our milk before Pesach, so that anything that
might somehow have got into it will have become batel.  Those who are
super-careful strain it to be sure that there is no solid foreign matter
in it, which would not be batel.  So what goes on during Pesach is of no
concern to us.  The goy will produce milk as he usually does, and will
sell it to his fellow goyim, and after Pesach we will resume buying from
him as usual.  But if you have a Jewish dairy farm, it can't just shut
down during Pesach; it's producing milk, in which any chametz would not
be batel, so the situation is quite different.
--



http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=news&;id=49099
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On 12/04/2011 10:54 AM, SBA Gmail wrote:

> See RM Landau's reasoning here:
> http://www.sh
> turem.net/index.php?section=news&;id=49099 <http://www.sh
> turem.net/index.php?section=news&;id=49099>

This is about something else, a new chumra that R Landau introduced for
his hechsher this year.  According to the article, all the hechsherim
have always required the cows to go off chametz a month(!) before Pesach;
I don't know whether that's accurate.  RMYL became worried that this
chametz-free hay, because it's made from the stalks of grain plants,
might contain chametz after all, so this year he got the farmers to use
a new kind of feed that has no cheshash of chametz.  This doesn't explain
what the problem with chametz is in the first place.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

Pat Palter and using ovens belonging to nonbnai brit to bake matzot are
well known elements of Jewish life in old Europe.  Is it the assumption
that there was ongoing kashrut supervision and/or the ovens were kashered
before use.  If so, how did it work for chassidim who bake matzot on leil
seder when it falls out on motzai shabbat? They did libbun and baked and
had time for the seder on a timely basis?  Any historical information
rather than -" well they must have" would be appreciated.
KT
Joel Rich
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On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 12:52:43AM +0100, Chana Luntz wrote:
: RMB writes:
: > But as in the example of tying the minhagim of the omer and the 3 weeks
: > to the forms of aveilus, RYGB doesn't actually always require that
: > the obligation be halachic. Rather, that it follows the forms established
: > by halakhah.

: > Which is arguably true for women who put their hands on the cow without
: > the ability to actually move its head any.
: > But not of the woman who wears a 4 cornered garment without tassles.

: Of course it follows the forms established by the halacha.
: 
: The minhag is for (a man) to perform the mitzvah of davenning in an
: enwrapping (probably white with black stripes) thing with four corners on it
: (which for halachic reasons therefore needs tzitzis)...

I would have said the minhag is for a man to make a point of performing
the mitzvah qiyumis with a tallis of that description. If you reduce the
minhag to the tallis, not the tallis as a way to wear tzitzis, then the
minhag for men wouldn't fit the action of a mitzvah either.

There is no mitzvah to wear a tallis -- only the tzitzis on it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
mi...@aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sat, Apr 09, 2011 at 09:31:44PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: What is the significance of dipping a live bird in the blood of its chaver (or 
: at least a fellow bird/ of the same or similar species) and then setting it 
: free?

Perhaps, just thinking out loud because I didn't want this to go any
longer without discussion...

YK is for a kaparah between man and HQBH.

In contrast, tzaraas is to spur teshuvah on a list of issues that come
up bein adam lachaveiro. (Most famously LH, but R' Shmuel bar Nachmani
(Eirukhin 16a) also lists retzhichah, shevuas shav and shevuas sheqer,
gilui arayos, gaavah, geneivah and tzarus ayin. All bein adam lachaveiro.

So, the person needs to get the lesson in empathy that perhaps can be
obtained by watching one bird feel the panic of smelling the other's
death.

But empathy is less of an issue for the aveiros bein adam laMaqom that
YK is mechaper.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507

[2 emails. -micha]

The following is from Rabbi Aharon Ziegler's JP column Halachic Positions
of RYBS, ZT"L. I do not know when it appeared.

Torah Reading Without A Kohen

It is a very common practice in many congregations that when a need arises
for two "Yisraelim" to be-called for an aliya to the Torah on Monday,
Thursday or Shabbat afternoon, we ask the Kohanim present to either
"forgive" their due honor in favor of the lay Israelites, or to step
outside so that, in their absence, a Yisrael can be called in their place.
This practice of circumventing the Kedushat Kohen is not suggested in
the Shulchan Aruch and is certainly not recommended. As a matter of fact,
Rema emphatically states (Orach Chayyim 135:1) that it is preferable to
add a fourth aliya under certain circumstances rather than circumvent
the mitzva of "Vekiddashto" the Kohen deserves, True, the Mishna Berura
(ad loc.) adds that today we do not follow the practice of the Rema;
however, he [the Chafetz Chaim] does not suggest an alternative solution.

According to Rav Soloveitchik, today's common practice is absolutely not
in conformance with Halakha and, therefore, not advisable. The Gemara
(Megilla 21b) asks, "What do the three [who read, i.e. the aliyot]
represent?" Rav Assi says, "The Torah, the Prophets and the Writings."
This means that the Torah incorporates within itself all three kedushot
- Kedushat Torah, Kedushat Nevi'im and Kedushat Ketuvim. Rava says that
the three aliyot correspond to Priests, Levites and lay Israelites.

We see from the above that the reason for calling a Kohen to the Torah
first is not only the commandment of "Vekiddashto," as suggested in
Tractate Gittin, but.rather the fact that it is an absolute, integral part
of the mitzva of Keriat HaTorah. Therefore, according to Rav Soloveitchik,
if (for any reason) there is no Kohen for the first aliya,the completeness
of Kiyyum Kriat HaTorah Bishelemut is not fulfilled.



The following is 
from  http://www.dinonline.org/2010/12/22/asking-the-cohen-to-leave/

The Question:

Is it permissible for the Gabboim to ask a Cohen to leave the shul
so they may call up a non Cohen for the first Aliya, during Leining,
in order to accommodate congregants who would otherwise possibly not
receive an Aliya,and may have an entitlement in terms of a yohrtzeit
or possibly that a Levy is not present,or that there may be 2 or 3 non
Cohanim who might be commemorating a Yohrtzeit.

Answer:

It is permitted to request this from the Cohen, but not on a regular
basis, and only in times of need, such as the presence of a chiyuv who
would otherwise not receive an aliyah.

Sources:

Maharam Schik (59) writes that it is permitted to ask a Cohen to forego
the first aliyah, upon which the Cohen can leave the shul, or forego
the aliyah (the gabbai should call up somebody else with the consent
[mechilah] of the Cohen) ? it is better that he should leave the shul
for the aliyah. However, he writes (61) that one should not do this on
a regular basis, but only in a special time of need, a ruling echoed in
Daas Sofer (18). The Chazon Ish used to be particular in this matter,
and would not permit requesting a Cohen to leave (hanhagos Chazon Ish,
chap. 5).

Several authorities write that on Mondays and Thursdays it is permitted
to ask the Cohen to leave where there are chiyuvim in the shul (see
Toras Chaim 135:8; Iggros Moshe vol. 3, no. 20; Minchas Yitzchak, vol. 2,
no. 41; see also Mishnah Berurah 18). Kaf Hachaim 135:14 writes that where
there are many guests in the shul, it is permitted to call one up for the
first aliyah, and there is no need for the Cohen to leave, because it is
clear that he is not receiving the aliyah on account of the presence of
many guests. I think this halachah would be hard to apply today, because
the general custom is to always give the first aliyah to the Cohen.

Teshuvah Meahavah (91) stresses that the Cohen cannot be forced to forego
his place, and a number of authorities therefore write that the first
aliyah should not be sold (see Aruch Hashulchan 135:23; Shivas Tzion
(6); Beis Shearim (6); Avnei Tzedek (9); see also Mishnah Berurah 135:18
concerning calling up a non-Cohen where the custom is to do so).

For more on Reb Moshe's opinion on this issue, see
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/r_moshe_kohanim.pdf


Yitzchok Levine

Quoting Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>:
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 06:05:18PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
>> Someone sent me the following:
>> A famous story about R. Chaim Volozhiner, when asked why he didn't put on
>> Rabbeinu Tam t'fillin: "The din says that unless one is a chosid, he
>> shouldn't, because it's mechazei k'yuhara...."
>
> Does this mean the Gra, who his talmidim (including RCV) called "HaGaon
> haChassid" (sometimes "haGaon haChassid haAmiti", in true misnagid style),
> *did* wear Rabbeinu Tam tefillin?

Certainly his talmidim called him a chassid, but what makes you think  
he would not have hesitated to call himself a chasid?

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
dan...@cornell.edu



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