Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 60

Mon, 18 Apr 2011

• 1. Re: The RAMBAM on Studying Algebra, etc. (Poppers, Michael)
• 2. The Development of Kaddish Yasom -- part II Recent developments (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Re: gas stove controversy (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: live bird and dead bird (Micha Berger)
• 5. Seed Oil on Pesach (Meir Rabi)
• 6. Aruch HaShulchan, Help (Meir Rabi)
• 7. The Development of Kadish Yasom ? part II Recent developments (Prof. Levine)
• 8. assur l'ha'alos al hada'as (David Riceman)
• 9. Tzarich Iyun: Using Horseradish for Maror (Prof. Levine)
• 10. FWD: "What Goes Up..." (Project Genesis, "The Timeless Rav Hirsch") (Poppers, Michael)
• 11. Re: assur l'ha'alos al hada'as (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: assur l'ha'alos al hada'as (David Riceman)
• 13. Re: assur l'ha'alos al hada'as (Zev Sero)
• 14. Hallel in Shul on Pesach night ? The Ashkenaz Minhag to refrain (Prof. Levine)
• 15. Re: Hallel in Shul on Pesach night - The Ashkenaz Minhag to refrain (Ben Waxman)
• 16. The Imrei Emes - Kibud Av Wins Over The Mah Nishtana (Prof. Levine)
• 17. Re: Hallel in Shul on Pesach night - The Ashkenaz Minhag to refrain (Ben Waxman)
• 18. Re: Hallel in Shul on Pesach night - The Ashkenaz Minhag to refrain (Micha Berger)
• 19. Re: Hallel in Shul on Pesach night - The Ashkenaz Minhag to refrain (Rich, Joel)

In Avodah V28n56#1, RDrYL listed the nimshal of his RaMBaM-quote post:
> The NY State Regents Exams in algebra, geometry and trigonometry will be given in June. I trust that rebbeim in yeshivas will make the 
above clear to those of their talmidim who will be taking these Regents. <
I'm not sure why they should, assuming they don't/their tradition doesn't agree with the deiah-centric hashqafah of RaMBaM. 

A gut'n Shabbes "haGadol" and best wishes for a Chag Pesach Kasher v'Sameach from
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

Please see http://tinyurl.com/3cpq7lk  YL

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 03:59:10PM -0700, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: http://muqata.blogspot.com/2011/04/banning-gas-stove-tops-for-yo
: m-tov.html

The safety switch was around in RMF's and RSZA's day. And unless
neither ever needed their stoves repaired, they knew about it. To
me it sounds like this "expert" misled RSYNQ and RCQ, both about the
nature of the design, and that it's a new thing not answered by their
predecessors. (Unsurprising, as RYR of Zomet says the same, although a
little more politically sensitively.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:40:38PM +0000, Elazar M. Teitz wrote:
...
:      Sh'vuas shav is never bein adam lachaveiro.  Sh'vuas sheker can be,
:      but its most common manifestation is sh'vuas bituy, which generally
:      is not.	Ga'ava need not have an effect on anyone else.	If by
:      aveira bein adam lachaveiro one means an act committed against
:      another, then giluy arayos is not an aveira bein adam lachaveiro; it
:      is an aveira bein adam lamakom whose commission requires two people.

I quoted you at
http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2011/04/two-birds.shtml/comment-page
-1#comment-56829

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

The following observations from the Mishneh Berurah regarding oil from
Kitniyos that may be used as fuel to provide light at the eating table
without taking precautions that some may drip into food at the table


   1. 453:11
      1. A Chametz grinder may be used to crush the sesame seeds; even if
      some Chamets may thereby be incorporated into the oil, since it
is prior to
      Pesach and is therefore Battel be60.
      2. This suggests that the oil was (as is to be expected) thick and
      murky with actual specks of sesame in it. In such a mixture the Chamets
      would not be identifiable and would be Battel. A speck of Chamets, and I
      don?t mean on the molecular level, in our modern day refined oil
would not
      be Battel since it can be seen and removed.
      3. This being the case, it appears that the problem with Kitnitot oil
      is not the oil but the solid sesame matter in suspension or
settled at the
      bottom of the oil. People using such oil would easily see little to no
      difference between using sesame seeds or sesame oil, since in
both cases one
      is consuming the sesame seed solid.
      4. MBerua adds that neither is there a suspicion that Chamets flavour
      absorbed in the crusher has been transferred to the sesame, and
this would
      apparently not be Battel Be60; since the sesame seed crush is a cold
      process.
      5. Accordingly, our clear refined oil extracted from seeds, appears to
      be Muttar.
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ArHaShulchan 461:7, discussing the measure of when Matza is baked.

Can anyone help me read this Aruch HaShulchan?

After mentioning the Shiur of Chutin Nimshochim - that when the Matza
is torn there are no doughy stringy threads, he says, "and even if when
it is moved it crumbles one fulfills ones obligation since there are no
stringy threads."

It appears as though the words "does not"are missing; i.e. and even though
it "does not" crumble when moved, it is properly baked since there are
no stringy threads. He would be speaking possibly to those who were
unfamiliar with soft Matza, reassuring them that it is Kosher.

-- 

Best,
Meir G. Rabi

Please see http://tinyurl.com/3cpq7lk  YL


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How does one harmonize H. AZ 2:3 (shelo l'ha'alos al libeinu v'lo nasiah 
da'ateinu ...) with H. Yesodei HaTorah 1:2 (v'im ya'ale al hada'as 
...)?  Is there a distinction between "l'ha'alos al hada'as" and 
"l'ha'alos al halev"? Is it possible to read (or was it possible for the 
Rambam to compose) H. Yesodei HaTorah 1:2 without violating H. AZ 2:3? How?

My tentative hypothesis is that I don't know what "l'ha'alos al hada'as" 
means.  Any suggestions?

Does anyone discuss this?

David Riceman

 From http://www.ou.org/torah/article/tzarich_iyun_using_horseradish_for_m
 aror

Misconception: Horseradish (chrain) is the preferred item to use to 
fulfill the mitzvah of eating maror at the Seder.

Please see the above URL for the rest of this interesting and 
informative article by Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky.

YL


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http://www.torah.org/advanced/ravhirsch/5771/achareimos.html

I thought some listmembers would be interested in the implicit criticism of
hewing to only one concept in Mussar (see the paragraph which begins "By
turning every removal..."). 

Best wishes for a Chag Pesach Kasher v'Sameach from
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

On 17/04/2011 11:28 AM, David Riceman wrote:
> How does one harmonize H. AZ 2:3 (shelo l'ha'alos al libeinu v'lo
> nasiah da'ateinu ...) with H. Yesodei HaTorah 1:2 (v'im ya'ale al
> hada'as ...)? Is there a distinction between "l'ha'alos al hada'as"
> and "l'ha'alos al halev"? Is it possible to read (or was it possible
> for the Rambam to compose) H. Yesodei HaTorah 1:2 without violating H.
> AZ 2:3? How?

The difference seems obvious to me: it's the difference between
"leha`alos" and "ya`aleh".   As Pirkei Ovos says, "ad sheyeshev viysirem
milibo"

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

On 4/17/2011 1:47 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> The difference seems obvious to me: it's the difference between
> "leha`alos" and "ya`aleh".   As Pirkei Ovos says, "ad sheyeshev viysirem
> milibo"

But why isn't the Rambam over on lifnei iver? Surely I'm being ma'aleh 
al hada'as by reading the halacha.

David Riceman

On 17/04/2011 3:10 PM, David Riceman wrote:
> But why isn't the Rambam over on lifnei iver? Surely I'm being ma'aleh
> al hada'as by reading the halacha.

Not at all.  Accidentally forgetting is not exempted because oness
rachmana patreih, it's exempted because the issur is deliberately
removing the words from your heart.  Here too, the issur is
deliberately considering that these things might be true; there's no
issur in the thought occurring on its own, because of what you read
beheter.  Compare to "maksheh atzmo loda`as", or "me'abed atzmo
loda`as"; it's the intention that counts.  (BTW, putting oneself in
danger is *not* a violation of "es dimchem lenafshoseichem edrosh",
but of "venishmartem"; i.e. it's the danger itself, not the result,
that's the problem.  If there were no "venishmartem" there'd be no
problem in taking even reckless risks.)

Consider also the closely related issur on studying AZ ("eichocho
ya`avdu").  In that case the passuk itself explicitly limits the issur
by saying that it's only forbidden if the intention is ch"v "ve'e`eseh
chein gam oni"; if it's for any other purpose it's permitted.

Following this, here's an even straighter answer to your original
question: the issur the Rambam brings in Hil' AZ is to *seriously*
*consider* the possibility that the idolaters may be right.  Bringing
up their arguments for the purpose of refuting them, or even just to
provide an example in an unrelated argument,  is not assur at all.
In Hil' Yesodei Hatorah he brings up the possibility of two gods
only for the purpose of demonstrating how it logically contradicts
itself, "if we were to consider it we would have to immediately
dismiss it", and that was never assur.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

Please see http://tinyurl.com/3qcb8tp

On what basis does the author conclude that Ashkenazim were compelled to 
follow Nusach Separd? Is there historical proof to this or is this merely 
his own conjecture?

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Subject: [Avodah] Hallel in Shul on Pesach night - The Ashkenaz Minhag to 
refrain 

 From http://revach.net/article.php?id=5038

The Imrei Emes - Kibud Av Wins Over The Mah Nishtana

In days gone by the Mah Nistana was a much more innocent affair. Kids 
were not taught the Mah Nishtana in school, but rather it was up to 
the kid to notice strange things going on at the Seder and asking on 
his own volition.

[I have felt for a long time that the yeshivas "wreck" the seder by 
priming thier students with all sorts of information about the 
seder.  They come to the seder with booklets and haggadahs that 
explain everything and often give esoteric insights into things.  To 
me it seems clear from the gemara that kids are not supposed to know 
beforehand what to expect so that they will ask.  I wonder why the 
yeshivas have taken this approach. YL]

On Seder night when the Imrei Emes was a little boy, his father the 
Sfas Emes of Gur started his Seder and waited expectantly for his 
young son to start inquiring about odd happenings. The Imrei Emes sat 
quietly without the slightest hint of a puzzled look on his face. The 
Sfas Emes started to do more strange things in order to get the boy 
to ask, but to no avail. He even started to move things on and off 
the table, turn the table over, and other wild antics just to break 
the boy's calm demeanor, but nothing would make the Imrei Emes flinch.

Finally the Sfas Emes asked his son if he noticed anything different 
about that night's meal. The Imrei Emes said that of course he did. 
Then why, asked the Sfas Emes, di you not seem alarmed and ask any questions?

The little boy answered with pure innocence, because I know my father 
is a smart man and whatever he does he has a very good reason for 
doing. That is why I am not the slightest bit disturbed.

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My wife told me that at Maimonides (where the Rav davened) they did/do say 
Hallel at night. I wonder if he did this based on the tradition of the Gra.

Ben 

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 06:10:11PM +0300, Ben Waxman wrote:
> My wife told me that at Maimonides (where the Rav davened) they did/do 
> say Hallel at night. I wonder if he did this based on the tradition of 
> the Gra.

Interestingly, though, the blog entry cites the Griz as leaving the room
when caught in a minyan that said Hallel at night.

I don't think it's likely to have been minhag haGra, in the literal sense.
As RRW has often pointed out, in the Gra's day, minhagei haGra were
uniquely the Gra's. His talmidim didn't veer from Litvisher norms until
have their rebbe's petirah.

A minhag that would involve a minyan of other Vilna-ites would therefore
be unlikely to become a minhag haGra. And if he said it beyechidus, why
would it have been in shul?

That's, aside from the fact that -- as the "Treasures of Ashkenaz"
blog entry noted -- it's not in Maaseh Rav.

RBW's evidence does appear to weaken the blogger's claim that it was
due to talmidei haGra's exposure to Sepharadim in Israel. It has to be
tracable to the Gra's students who weren't in the yishuv hayashan as well.

More likely, LAD, is that the Gra gave a strong sevara for doing so, such
that it became minhag talmidei haGra before a subset of them made aliyah.

:-)|,|ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I long to accomplish a great and noble task,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it is my chief duty to accomplish small
http://www.aishdas.org   tasks as if they were great and noble.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Helen Keller

My wife told me that at Maimonides (where the Rav davened) they did/do say Hallel at night. I wonder if he did this based on the tradition of the Gra.

Ben 

_______________________________________________

I also heard that they followed his shita (in general) about birchat hallel and the chazan did not say it out loud.
KT
Joel Rich
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