Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 63

Wed, 27 Apr 2011

• 1. Drinking water after fish (Akiva Blum)
• 2. What's the source for calling People for an Aliya to the T by their name ben father's name (Prof. Levine)
• 3. BaOmer vs LaOmer (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: What's the source for calling People for an Aliya to the T by their name ben father's name (Zev Sero)
• 5. Hallel in Maariv on Pesach night (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 6. Re: D'zabin or Diz'van? (Danny Schoemann)
• 7. Women and Matza (Saul Mashbaum)
• 8. Re: ashkenazi minhag (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Re: ashkenazi minhag (David Cohen)
• 10. Re: Whats the source for calling People for an Aliya to the T by their name ben father's name (Danny Schoemann)
• 11. Re: More food for your thought (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 12. Amaleinu - Eilu haBanim (SBA)
• 13. Re: ashkenazi minhag (Eli Turkel)

The gemora at the end of the first perek of moed katan says to eat fish close to it's rotting. It also says to drink water with fish.
Tosafos says that nowadays we hold eating such fish is dangerous.
Similarly, drinking water with fish. Tosafos answers (in the first answer)
that maybe things have changed, like other refuos in shas which are no good
nowadays.
R' Akiva Eiger SA (YD 116 on the Ramo in seif 5) paskens like this Tosafos not to drink water after fish.

Here's what I don't understand. RAE takes Tosafos as an absolute issur, not
to drink water after fish. But surely Tosafos is simply pointing out that
according to our present day understanding, we cannot drink water with
fish. However, in a time where this belief isn't held, there would be no
issue.

Was it believed in the time of RAE that there is some sort of danger of
fish and water? Is anyone familiar with such a belief in the times of
Tosafos, or any other time? What about today?

I have seen in a couple of modern halocho compilations the RAE quoted. But if we have no such belief of danger, this RAE should be irrelevant.

A GM

Akiva

At 10:58 AM 4/24/2011, R Meir Rabi wrote:

>Whats the source for calling People for an Aliya to the T by their name ben
>father's name
>What is the earliest source and why do we do it?
>I believe it is not a universal custom, in some places they just say YaAmod
>and point

I do not know the source. However, I believe that Chabad calls up 
according to the mother's name, not the father's, but I could be 
mistake on this.

IIRC, many years ago when I davened in the Chevron Yeshiva in 
Yerushalyim, they called me up, "Ya'amod Yitzchok Leib Ha Levi" 
without my father's name.  However, this was in the 80s, so I could 
be mistaken.
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At 11:22 PM 4/23/2011, R. Micha wrote:
>Someone who just calls himself "Dan" on hashkafa.com posted this
>clip from R' Moshe Mordechai Karp's Hilkhos Chag beChag. See
><http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/baomerVsLaomer.jpg>.

>R' Dan's summary: "the girsa machlokes is taluy on the machlokes whether
>the sfira now is min hatorah or dirabanan. min hatorah - Baomer, dirabanan
>- Laomer. He showed how it plays through thoughout the poskim."

Given that virtually everyone refers to the 33rd day at Lag B'Omer, I 
have always considered this an indication that one should count 
b"omer.  I did know someone who counted L'Omer and called the 33rd 
day Lag L'Omer. >:-}

YL

On 24/04/2011 11:13 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:

>I believe that Chabad calls up according to the mother's name, not the
> father's, but I could be mistake on this.

You are mistaken.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

I frequently hear the phrase "Hallel in shul on Pesach night", but I don't
understand why it is phrased that way. Why isn't it "Hallel in *Maariv* on
Pesach night"?

Someone once told me that if a person does have this minhag, but for some
reason is saying Maariv at home without a minyan, then he would NOT say
Hallel, even though it is the Seder night, because he is not in shul. Why
would this be?

My understanding is that the reason *for* saying this Hallel is to enable
reciting the bracha "likro es haHallel", which would then "cover" the
Hallel said at the Seder. If so, I can't imagine why it would be omitted by
someone davening alone.

I would imagine that this might be similar to one who is davening on Rosh
Hashana morning without a minyan. I honestly don't know what the proper
procedure would be, and I ask the chevra for their ideas.

My wild guess is this: The tekios of musaf are the ikar, and therefore he
would blow the shofar for himself during his own silent musaf, even if
that's not his usual minhag, because there's no other option. He would also
blow the shofar before Musaf, just like everyone does, simply to enable
recital of Lishmoa Kol Shofar and Shehecheyanu. If I'm wrong, please show
me my error; and if I'm correct, why would Hallel be different?

Akiva Miller

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On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 7:50 PM,  R' Simon Montagu mentioned

> My family always sang "D'zabin abba bitrei zuzei, chad gadya-a-a-a,
> chad gadya", but several haggadot today print it as "Diz'van abba".
>
> Grammatically, "diz'van" is probably more correct, assuming that abba
> bought the kid rather than selling it, and one of my haggadot brings a
> text from a 13th-14th century manuscript (not part of a haggada) which
> spells it that way. My question is, does anybody here have a masora to
> pronounce it "diz'van", or is it a modern correction?

"We" always pronounced it D'zabin - but the Rodelheim Haggada (over
100 years old) has it as Diz'van - as do the 3 Haggadot that "Sabba
HaGadol" Rav MM Kasher zt"l published. (The Hagada-Sheleimah, The
"Kasher" Hagada EretzYisrael, and the Leil Shimurim)

All other Haggadot of various vintage that I checked had D'zabin

- Danny, Isru-Chag Pessach 5751, 8th Day of the Omer, Jerusalem.

I wrote
>>

In fact, the exceptions to the rule that "mitzvos asei shehazman gerama
nashim pturot" are few
indeed : pesach (sh'chitato vachilato), matza, kiddush on Shabbat, and
simchat yom tov. See Rambam AZ 12:3.
>>
In an offlist communication, a chaver pointed out that I incorrectly omitted
Hakhel from this list.

Although the Rambam in the Mishne Torah AZ 12:3, explicitly lists only 5
mitzvot as exceptions to the rule that  "mitzvot ashe shehazman grama nashim
pturot", there is some indication that there is a further category of
time-bound positive mitzvot women are obligated in.
In his Sefer Hamizvot, mitzvot aseh 154-171, the Rambam list many mitzvot
aseh
related to Shabbat, YK, and YT: To refrain from work on these days (each
chag is a separate mitzva), to make kiddush on Shabbat, to rid oneself of
the possession of chometz,
 sippur yetziat mitzrayim, to eat matza,  and the mitzvot of sfirat haomer,
daled minim, succa, and shofar. Regarding the last four mitzvot, the Rambam
explicitly says that women are exempt. He says this about none of the other
mitzvot in this group. We know that women are obligated in at least two of
them (matza and kiddush hayom) and it does seem that the Rambam implies that
women are obligated in the other ones as well. The Chinuch, who generally
follows the Rambam, definitely holds this (See mitzva 297 and the Minchat
Chinuch there) . Thus it is possible that RMB's reference to "numerous
exceptions" to the general rule  was not as far off the mark as I indicated
in my previous posting.

Saul Mashbaum
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IIRC Rav Shachter writes in Nefesh HaRav that RYBS did stay in shul when
Hallel on Yom Atzamot was said, even though he didn't say it. However when
they did a k'ilu Qriyat Hatorah, he left.

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Eli Turkel 
  OTOH RYBS brings that his uncle, the Griz, walked out of shul when they said 
  Hallel Pesach night in shul. This was justified in that one should not be
  in shul if one is not particpating. RYBS uses this as a jusitification
  that one who has parents should leave when
  yizkor is said.
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R' Eli Turkel wrote:

> I would go a step further. Given that there are minhagei of EY I dont
> understand the
> heter for anyone to say but that is not there original minhag. I dont know
> the stand of
> Machon Moreshes Ashkenaz. However, there are many halachot that EY accepted
> the
> Machaber over the Ramah. Some examples include "shehechiyanu" at a Brit
> Milah and
> not wearing tefillin on chol hamoed. As far as I know there is no heter for
> an Israeli
> (not a visitor from chul) to wear tefillin on chol hamoed because that was
> his ancestors
> minhag. Minhag hamakom trumps that.
>

The question is which of the minhagim of the Perushim have taken on the
status of "minhagei Eretz Yisrael."

Here is a (by no means exhaustive) list (let's call it "LIST A") of
originally Sefaradi practices that have been accepted by all "mainstream"
Ashkenazi kehilos in EY, whether they daven nusach Ashkenaz or nusach Sefard
(chasidi):
-- no tefilin on chol hamoed
-- no "baruch Hashem le'olam" at weekday maariv
-- "barechu" at the end of davening
-- saying "morid hatal" (okay, that might actually have an intrinsic
connection to EY)
-- duchening every day (at least south of the Galil)
-- "Ein Keloheinu" every morning
-- "shecheyeyanu" at a beris

On the other hand, here is a (equally non-exhaustive) list (let's call it
"LIST B") of practices that the Perushim adopted, and are recorded in R'
Tukachinsky's luach, but in reality were adopted only by a certain
percentage of nusach Ashkenaz kehilos, and by an even smaller percentage of
nusach Sefard (chasidi) kehilos:
-- no "veshamru" at Shabbos maariv
-- no kerias haTorah on Simchas Torah night
-- Abridged Tal/Geshem before musaf, rather than inside chazaras haShatz
-- kerovos for shacharis of yom tov an 4 parashiyos after kaddish shalem,
rather than inside chazaras hashatz  (in places where they are said at all,
that is...)
-- shir shel yom according to minhag haGra
-- aseres hadibros read in taam tachton on Shabbos of Yisro and Vaeschanan

As far as I can tell, there is no inherent reason why the items in List A
were universally accepted and the items in List B were not.  It's simply a
matter of history that that is what happened, whatever the reason, so most
of those Ashkenazim in EY who prefer to keep the traditional Ashkenazi
practice are perfectly comfortable not adopting the Perushi practices in
List B, but would feel that to deviate from List A would be to violate what
has become a de facto "minhag EY."  Mechon Moreshes Ashkenaz is simply
saying that the very existence of List B proves that the Perushim did not
define "minhag EY" for all Ashkenazim, so there's no reason that all
Ashkenazim in EY need to feel bound to List A either, given that there is no
categorical difference between them.  That being said, I believe that there
are cases in which even they do not want to deviate from list A.  For
example, I think that they do all duchen every day, and that the rabbanim of
the different MMA-affiliated shuls have paskened different ways regarding
wearing tefilin in public on chol hamoed.

-- D.C.
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On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 5:58 PM,  R' Meir Rabi <meir...@gmail.com> asked"

> Whats the source for calling People for an Aliya to the T by their name ben
> father's name
> What is the earliest source and why do we do it?
> I believe it is not a universal custom, in some places they just say YaAmod
> and point

I saw this done in the Slabodka Yeshiva in Bnai Brak: only your first
name is used. I'd imagine that in case of ambiguity, they may point -
but this is an issue even with the "ben" system. :-)

Apparently, when calling up the Roshei Yeshiva, they say YaAmod and
point, not wanting to call the RY by name, but I never saw this
actually happen.

- Danny, Isru Chag Pessach 5771, 8th day of the Omer, Jerusalem.

R' YL:
This issue is a debate between Rav Moshe Feinstein zt?l on one side and the
Brisker Rav zatzal and ibl?t Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky Shlita on the other
side.? Rav Moshe Feinstein in Igros Moshe OC Vol. II #94 writes that if
someone finds himself in a shul that recites Hallel it is preferable to
recite the Hallel and not act differently so as to avoid Machlokes.?
Although, ideally he should do so without a blessing, if it will be readily
apparent that he is not reciting a blessing ? then he should even recite a
blessing rather than appear to act differently!

Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky, however, is of the opinion that it is preferable to
leave the shul earlier rather than recite the Hallel earlier and fulfill the
opinion of the Ramah.? His opinion is cited in Kovetz Hilchos Pesach 18:4 by
Rabbi Daniel Kleinman.? Rav Kamenetsky advises that it is preferable to
sneak out of shul undetected.? If this is not possible, he advises to recite
Tehillim instead ? also in a manner that is not detected.
--------------------


the shul leaves and the other half stays to say Hallel. So there's a two
minute or so break, during which anyone who does not want to say Hallel
leaves.

KT and GM and GY,
MYG

From: Micha Berger 

Someone at the seder pointed out that this derashah, "'ve'es amaleinu' --

eilu habanim", seems tenuous. Isn't ameilus about toil? Why then do we

darshen it to refer to the infant boys being taken away and drowned?

>> 

 

This query made me look into a few of my (50-60!) hagodos.

 

The best pshat that I found (until now) comes from the Hagodo Birchas Hashir
from the

"Plotzker gaon" - Rav Aryeh Leib Tzintz zt'l. 

 

He indeed teitches 'Amoleinu' as 'toil'.

 

He explains that one of the 2 reasons given for the Yidden being able to
depart Mitzrayim 190 years earlier than the originally decreed 400, was that
as they had unnatural population growth ('shisha bekeres echad') the extra
numbers made up the missing years by providing so much extra manpower.

 

Thus, by ordering the drowning of the male babies - and future additional
slaves - Paroy reduced the number of workers thereby increasing the 'kishui
hashibud' (the other reason for their early departure) and the time that
they had to remain in Mitzrayim to complete the 400 years worth of Shibud.

 

(Ayen shom as he also explains the 'gezeira' of 'kol habas techayun'.)

 

An associated cute vertel that I saw today - beshem the "Yalkut Hagershuni":

 

When Paroy asked the 'meyaldos ha'ivriyos': "Madua asisen hadavar hazeh
vet'chayena es hayeladim?", he was asking: "What about 'dina demalchusa
dina'?"

 

They replies "ki lo kanashim hamitzriyos ha'ivriyos" = ie, "you only ordered
the drowning of Jewish babies - and DDD is only applicable when the rules
are equal for all."

 

Upon hearing that, "Vaytzav Paroy >>LECHOL<< amoy - kol haben hayilod
haye'orah tashlichihu." 

VPChCh

 

(Of course this is pure drush - as (presumably) even this worthy list's most
obedient and law-abiding citizens - accept that DDD doesn't apply to orders
of murder..)

 

SBA

 

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David Cohen begins by stating that all mainstream Ashkenazim have taken on
List A:.
As far as I know that defines minhag hamakom. What are the historical
reasons behind it are irrelevant. If someone did a study and came
up with reasons would that make any difference.

The origin of the halacha is that a community should not be split (lo
titgodedu). In the old days if an Ashkenazi would
move to Bagdad would he start investigating what are original local minhagim
or not? As far as I know anyone who wears tefillin in shul
in EY on chol hamoed violates lo titgodedu. Even a visitor from chul should
put on tefillin at home.

In practice many minhagei haGra as given in list B are not generally
practiced outside of shuls that minhagei haGra. As such as in most places
around the world there co-exist different customs.

kol tuv

Eli Turkel

---------------------


> were universally accepted and the items in List B were not.  It's simply a
> matter of history that that is what happened, whatever the reason, so most
> of those Ashkenazim in EY who prefer to keep the traditional Ashkenazi
> practice are perfectly comfortable not adopting the Perushi practices in
> List B, but would feel that to deviate from List A would be to violate what
> has become a de facto "minhag EY."  Mechon Moreshes Ashkenaz is simply
> saying that the very existence of List B proves that the Perushim did not
> define "minhag EY" for all Ashkenazim, so there's no reason that all
> Ashkenazim in EY need to feel bound to List A either, given that there is no
> categorical difference between them.  That being said, I believe that there
> are cases in which even they do not want to deviate from list A.  For
> example, I think that they do all duchen every day, and that the rabbanim of
> the different MMA-affiliated shuls have paskened different ways regarding
> wearing tefilin in public on chol hamoed.
>
> -- D.C.
>
>
>
>


-- 
Eli Turkel
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