Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 95

Wed, 15 Jun 2011

• 1. pikuach Nefesh (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: Re Bittul of non-K food (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Yom Tov Sheni for Olim LeReget to the Beit Mikdash (Simon Montagu)
• 4. Fw: Rioting Over Food (Ben Waxman)
• 5. Re: kimu v'kiblu, purim, (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Yom Tov Sheni for Olim LeReget to the Beit Mikdash (Micha Berger)
• 7. Milchemes Mitzvah today (Micha Berger)
• 8. Rav Moshe Feinstein: Going To College In The Summer (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: Rav Moshe Feinstein: Going To College In The Summer (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Rav Moshe Feinstein: Going To College In The Summer (Liron Kopinsky)
• 11. standard opinion (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: standard opinion (Micha Berger)
• 13. Debreciner Rov - Do Children Need To Wait Between Meat & Milk? (Prof. Levine)
• 14. Mi Ban Siach (Gershon Dubin)
• 15. Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Prof. Levine)

<<Both arguments are right; some passengers might have survived a crash and
the terrorists might have decided not to crash the plane.  But based on
hindsight we know that the odds are strongly against both those scenarios.
 What if the the person making the decision has enough expertise to know
that the odds are long that there will be any survivors on the plane no
matter what happens and that the odds are short that if the plane isn't shot
down there will be many deaths on the ground and all the passengers on the
plane will also die.  He still has to make a decision.  What should he do?>>

R Bleich has an article in a recent Tradition and concludes that there is
absolutely no heter to shoot down a plane with innocents on board.
R Zilberstein in discussing similar cases seems to hold like the Meiri that
the threatened person can shoot the plane but not an outsider. R. Bleich
quotes an opinion that the Meiri is a daas yachid.

For the case of a terrorist holding captives R. Zilberstein says that
perhaps the captives can be considered dead already (gavra katila) and is
worse than an enemy surrounding a city. He seemed to recall that Rav
Elyashiv held this opinion. Finally he pointed out that a terrorist is like
a war and the laws of a war are different. One can certainly bomb an enemy
fortification even though there may be civilians there who would be killed.
Since he did not discuss 9-11 I don't know if R. Zilberstein would equate Al
Quadi terrorists on 9-11 to terrorists in Israel who are bent on destroying
the country

-- 
Eli Turkel
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I am massively quoting since I don't expect people to remember a thread
of conversation from over a month ago.

On Sat, May 07, 2011 at 07:43:14PM +1000, Meir Rabi wrote:
:>: HaRav Sh Z Auerbach Paskens that Chamets that is not Battel during Pesach
:>: (even in parts per thousand) IS in fact Battel when it is so dilute that it
:>: can not be discerned by human tasting.

:>: Does this not point towards a most remarkable observation - that if a non-K
:>: food flavour is transferred to a Kosher food, if it is not at all
:>: discernible by human tasting, then the food ought to be Kosher.

:> The topics of nosein taam and bitul beshishim are old ones. What's
:> remarkable in your extension?

: there are a number of points that make the Pesak remarkable.

: It implies that in Bittul of 60 we DO have the possibility that it may be
: discernible by human tasting and yet it is Battel

I don't see where you get that from what you cited besheim RSZA.

To use your own analysis:
: What seems to emerge is that there are 3 categories 1) what can be tasted by
: any ordinary chap 2) what can be tasted by a chef 3) what can be tasted by
: one in a million who have an extremely sensitive palette. In normal Bittul
: we use the Chef which today is the value of 60. Pesach we use the one in a
: million measure who seem to be able to discern taste at 1:1000. When even
: these unusually sensitive palette can not discern the taste it is Battel
: even during Pesach

: Accordingly if we can not find one in a million who can discern that food
: which is cooked in a non-Kosher vat that is tainted with non-K flavour, such
: food ought to be Kosher, in spite of the fact that by our calculations there
: is no Bittul Be60.

Except that bittul be60 is, as you just wrote, a rule of thumb for
"that which would be tastable by a chef", just as bitul be1000 means not
tastable by anyone -- not even by yechidei segulah blessed with virtuoso
tongue. Thus, we can't make a chiluq between 1 in 1000 and taam, even
by what RSZA said. Your taking him that way isn't consistent with the
entire principle behind the bitul.

I understood RSZA to be saying the reverse -- bitul be1000 does not work
for pesach, but if the one-in-a-million taster could verify it has no
taste in the taaroves, it would be batel. IOW, that the rule of thumb is
not sufficiently reliable, but the actual lack of taam it approximates
would be batel.

The original paragraph (triple-quoted behind ":>:" at the top of this
post) speaks about bitul when there is no taam, not about bitul when
there is a taam but the proportion wasn't met.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
mi...@aishdas.org        of instincts.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 11:13 PM, Hankman <sal...@videotron.ca> wrote,
quoting  Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/vedibarta-bam/foreword.htm:

> According to the?Gemara (Shabbat?87b) the Jews left Egypt on Thursday.
> Consequently, since the first?Pesach?was celebrated on Thursday, the
> following?Rosh Hashanah?was on a?Shabbat. Therefore the Torah does not
> mention the actual sounding of the?shofar?but only?"zichron
> teruah"?-?"a?remembrance?of?shofar?blasts."
>
> ________________________________
>
> A difficulty that may be raised with the explanation is that the rule of
> knowing from?Pesach?on what day of the week a given holiday will fall,
> applies only nowadays when the new month is established?al pi
> hacheshbon?-?according to a pre-calculated calendar. Accordingly, one month
> is complete (thirty days) and the following month is incomplete (twenty-nine
> days), and everything is known in advance. However, when the new month was
> derived based on the testimony of witness who saw the moon's appearance,
> this rule would not be applicable since there can be a few successive full
> or incomplete months.
>
> An answer to this difficulty may be the following: Rabbeinu Bachya
> (Shemot?12:2) writes in the name of Rabbeinu Channaneil that throughout the
> forty years the Jews sojourned in the wilderness, the new month was in fact
> established according to a pre-calculated system and not by testimony of
> witness. The reason is; Hashem covered the Jewish camp in clouds during the
> day and a pillar of fire during the night, (Shemot?13:21) which made it
> impossible for them to see the sun during the day or the moon during the
> night.
>
> Thus, the first?Rosh Hashanah?the Jews celebrated was indeed on?Shabbat?and
> they did not blow the?shofar.

I find all this very problematic.

Firstly, right there in Shabbat 87b, there is a mahloket, among other
things, whether Iyyar was haser or male; in fact the whole sugya seems
to presuppose the possibility that the calendar wasn't exactly the
same as the current fixed calendar.

Secondly, we know from the Mishna in RH 4:1 that in the Mikdash they
did blow the shofar on Shabbat. Why would they not blow the shofar in
the Mishkan?

Maybe not. I lived in a place where people ate the same thing 365 days a year, twice a day. If that is what you expect, than it is no big deal. 

Although I doubt that Bnei Yisrael had all the delicacies that they listed
here (at least not all the time) I assume that the Egyptians gave them
enough to eat because they wanted their slaves to work. You can't send a
slave out to work if he is starving. However they probably gave them the
simplest food possible which had the required calories.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: T6...@aol.com 

I'm not much of a meat eater myself but I would probably have been one of the complainers in the desert, just being tired of eating the same thing every day.
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On Fri, Jun 03, 2011 at 12:38:23PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: > 1. Why is the Torah binding if given to us by force? ... ...

: and 

: > 2. Is an agreement forced upon or given to, or made by a soul
: > binding upon a body, or even a body associated (whole or in
: > part) to a given soul at a later date? ...

: To answer these and similar questions, we first need to understand
: what we mean by the concept of "obligation" to begin with...

Perhaps, although I think my answers work without this.

In any case, I agree with this thesis:
: This is not an "obligation" in a legal and technical sense, but in a
: natural sense. Or you can call it "natural law" if you like...

See the first essay in my Yamim Noraim reader
<http://www.aishdas.org/10YemeiTeshuvah.pdf>, where I cite a number of
sources giving two basic approaches that link sechar va'onesh causally
to the mitzvah or cheit.

This allows a total reversal of the causality: An onesh is not meted
out in response to an aveirah, but rather an aveirah is something HQBH
warns us to avoid because it is self-injurious and will cause pain (onesh).

Mitzvos as "Doctor's Orders" rather than "General's Orders". And onesh
is more like the child who gets burned touching the stove than the one
whose hand is slapped before they reach it.

OTOH, in a later essay, "The Gift of Justice", I argued that the two
perspectives are actually both simplified models describing the same
thing:

    ...
    Hashem is the both the One Who created the system of supernatural
    law that would cause any automatic sechar va'onesh, as well as the
    One Who would be imposing it personally. When he set up the law,
    Hashem did it cognizant of every outcome of it. The law would include
    knowledge of each instance, no less than if Hashem intervened at each
    instance. The difference is merely when the decision was made. And
    since Hashem has no time, no "when", do they really differ?

    The same resolution that would explain how miracles can exist while
    the rules don't need second-guessing would explain who personal
    reward and punishment can exist even while being automatic. Each
    option is a simplification of the Divine Truth whittled down to fit
    into the human mind. It seems possible to get a glimpse of how they
    could be describing the same reality.

    The duality is one central to our perception of Hashem: The imminence
    of the personal Giver verses the transcendence of the One Who set
    up perfect rules of justice.

    This, in turn, is the product of a basic paradox in the human
    condition....

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
mi...@aishdas.org        of instincts.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 04:42:17PM +0300, Simon Montagu wrote:
: On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 11:13 PM, Hankman <sal...@videotron.ca> wrote,
: quoting  Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky
: http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/vedibarta-bam/foreword.htm:
: > According to the Gemara (Shabbat 87b) the Jews left Egypt on Thursday.
: > Consequently, since the first Pesach was celebrated on Thursday, the
: > following Rosh Hashanah was on a Shabbat. Therefore the Torah does not
: > mention the actual sounding of the shofar but only "zichron
: > teruah" - "a remembrance of shofar blasts."

: > A difficulty that may be raised with the explanation is that the rule of
: > knowing from?Pesach?on what day of the week a given holiday will fall,
: > applies only nowadays when the new month is established?al pi
: > hacheshbon...
...
: > An answer to this difficulty may be the following: Rabbeinu Bachya
: > (Shemot?12:2) writes in the name of Rabbeinu Channaneil that throughout the
: > forty years the Jews sojourned in the wilderness, the new month was in fact
: > established according to a pre-calculated system...

: Firstly, right there in Shabbat 87b, there is a mahloket, among other
: things, whether Iyyar was haser or male; in fact the whole sugya seems
: to presuppose the possibility that the calendar wasn't exactly the
: same as the current fixed calendar.

As I posted already, there is no reason to believe that the fixed
calendar of Hillel Nesi'ah was the one anyone is claiming was used
beforehand. In fact, we proved otherwise, since Rava fasts for 2 days
because he didn't know if Elul was made full (RH 21a, c.f. Or Samayach on
Qiddush haChodesh 5:3). The OS also brings raayos from the nasi wanting to
add an Adar (Sanhedrin 12a) and Abayei having a Fri 9 beAv (Taanis 29b).
And Abayei was niftar 5 years into Hillel's nesi'us!

If we take it for granted that the Sanhedrin would close its doors to
force re'iyah was in order to fit a given calendar algorithm, the choice
of algorithm was in flux in Abayei veRava's days. And yet Abayei also
says "minhag avoseihem beyadeihem" -- that YT sheini shel galiyos was
no longer necessary. It stopped being in flux in his day too.

IOW, there is a difference between saying they fit a computation and saying
that people would know in advance which computation they would choose to
fit.

Which brings us back to Shabboss 87b, being explained given the
presumption that the calendar in question was Hillel II's. For that
matter, isn't that compelled by the belief that the avos kept kol haTorah
kulah even "davar shetalmid asid lehischadeish..."? The avos used the
final pesaq on the calendar, but MRAH didn't???

: Secondly, we know from the Mishna in RH 4:1 that in the Mikdash they
: did blow the shofar on Shabbat. Why would they not blow the shofar in
: the Mishkan?

For that matter, it's a derabbanan not to blow shofar on Shabbos. The
din didn't exist yet regardless of which calendar was used or whether
the BHMQ's exemption -- which was based on the yir'ah one has even within
an anan-less bayis sheini -- applied to the Mishqan.

Which brings us back to how one understands that medrash.

Li nir'eh the whole thing has to do with the rules of midrashic stories.
They aren't historical claims, they are Torah ones. Stories repeated
without regard to historicity or any claims about whether they did or
didn't occur.

They therefore have to work according to the rules of those who repeated
the meshalim and melitzos. Otherwise the medrash fails to do what it was
told to do -- teach a religious truth. The tzadiqim have to be doing
the right thing by the rules in place by those telling the story, and
resha'im's actions have to fit how we view them -- also given those rules.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
mi...@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

Just to up the ante on the discussion started on Areivim:

Anyone know a heter for Jews living in chu"l to refrain from serving
in Tzahal, or any other army committed to defending Jewish lives? You
have a chiyuv during war time, and it's useless to join once was is
declared. Maybe one could argue that today's army is better off with
fewer and better equipped soldiers than all these volunteers. Also,
volunteers who pose language and cultural issues.

But in a hypothetical where volunteering means a greater likelihood of
more Jews surviving the next war, is there a heter for benei chu"l?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

 From http://revach.net/article.php?id=4333

Rav Moshe Feinstein: Going To College In The Summer

In 1972 Rav Moshe Feinstein was asked (Igros Moshe YD 4:34) by a Rosh 
Yeshiva if he should allow his talmidim to go to college in the 
summer during Bein HaZmanim. Rav Moshe answered that going to college 
at all was not a simple matter.  However we don't protest it because 
many  boys will not listen, either because they have too much 
parental pressure, or they need to go to college to be able to earn a 
living.  There are also boys who aren't learning Torah 
anyway.  Regardless of the justification, says Rav Moshe, it must be 
made clear to anyone going to college that it is not a simple matter.

Regarding going to college in the summer, says Rav Moshe, since there 
are women on campus who do not dress in modest attire, the Rosh 
Yeshiva should enforce an absolute ban on going.  Many boys will 
claim that it is better for their learning since they can receive 
many more credits in a much shorter time and it will free up more 
learning time during the year.  Their arguments should not be heeded, 
says Rav Moshe, and even if they are permitted to go during the year, 
they should not be allowed to go in the summer.

Important Note: We bring this tshuvah as a starting point for 
discussion and not to convey any halacha.  We try to convey the 
Tshuva to the best of our ability. We admit that our understanding 
may not be accurate. One should learn the tshuva to verify the 
accuracy of our interpretation.  Please understand that this Tshuva 
may not be the final word on this topic. One should consult a Rav 
before drawing any conclusions.

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On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 08:00:45AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> From http://revach.net/article.php?id=4333
>
> Rav Moshe Feinstein: Going To College In The Summer
>
> In 1972 Rav Moshe Feinstein was asked (Igros Moshe YD 4:34) by a Rosh  
> Yeshiva if he should allow his talmidim to go to college in the summer 
> during Bein HaZmanim...

It's written in 1972, unfortunately addressed only to "yedidi", so we
don't know the audience. Our only clue is that it's a yeshiva where
macha'ah against going to college altogether won't help at a time when
some yeshivos were successfully doing just that.

For some audiences, the chiddush would be the tzad heter -- that RMF
feels that the other semesters are merely "eino pashut", and that it only
pays to overcome the problems of macha'ah for the additional problems
of summer attire and behavior.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507

"Regarding going to college in the summer, says Rav Moshe, since there are
women on campus who do not dress in modest attire, the Rosh Yeshiva should
enforce an absolute ban on going."

Maybe it was true in 1972 that on most college campuses there was a
difference in dress between summer and winter, but I did not find that to be
true when I was in college in 2001-6. On the contrary, in fact, as there
were less people around during the summer, and in general, they were more
studious.

This obviously does not deal with going to an all-male school or taking
internet classes (assuming that is muttar of course...)

As a side note, would a professor have a hetter similar to how musicians see
both sides of the mechitza at a wedding?
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<<But of greater importance is defining under what circumstances must you
follow the majority even in halacha. It seems from the Get Poshut and
many others that this is only when the parties are meeting face to face
and take a vote.>>

To add to Daniel's demonstration that we don't follow the majority even for
halachic decisions is the Maharatz Chajes (kol kitvei) Mishpat Horaah
374-394 see also drashot haRan and RE Wasserman
kovetz shiurim 87-116

Maharatz Chajes states that the opinion of the Sanhedrin is binding only if
a formal vote was taken after considering all opinions


-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 07:40:48PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Maharatz Chajes states that the opinion of the Sanhedrin is binding only if
: a formal vote was taken after considering all opinions

Binding, yes. But something pushed R' Yosef Caro to suggest his triumverate
of rishonim.

It seems to me that the Maharitz Chajes is talking about a shift from when
acharei rabim lehatos went from being a hard-and-fast rule to being a rule
of thumb, a factor to consider but could be outweighed by other factors.

There is also yachid verabbim, which has more weight than if the mi'ut is
more than one rav.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507

 From http://revach.net/article.php?id=1384

Debreciner Rov - Do Children Need To Wait Between Meat & Milk?

The Be'er Moshe (8:36) paskens that before the age of 3 years old 
there is no reason to wait between meat and milk. You may give a 
child milk as soon as the child finishes eating meat as long as their 
mouth is clean from meat. After age 3 he says you should wait one 
hour gradually increasing to 2 and 3 hours until age 6. At age 6 a 
child should wait the full 6 hours if that is his family's Minhag, 
unless the child is weak and only wants milk as opposed to other 
beverages. In that case he says 3 hours is enough until age 9.

He quotes the opinion of the Yagel Yaakov (2:88) that until the age 
of 9, three hours is enough. More lenient yet is the Chelkas Yaakov 
(2:16) who says that a child need not wait the full six hours until 
age 12. However, says the Be'er Moshe, it is not the Minhag today to 
follow these lenient opinions.

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This prayer (?) is now fairly standard at Ashkenazi weddings.  Does anyone
know what it means?  The closest I got was this http://www.kipa.co.il/ask
/show/111826which is less than satisfactory.  Also, a source for the
actual words and when it began to be sung at weddings would be helpful

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
____________________________________________________________
57 Year Old Mom Looks 27!
Mom Reveals $5 Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4df8b232bb9704eff6ast02vuc
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 From http://tinyurl.com/3uuyha3


One of the more difficult challenges we face in keeping the holy 
minhogim of our Ashkenazic ancestors is posed by present day 
unrestricted imports from Eretz Yisroel, of Sepharadic minhagim 
posing as Ashkenazic ones.

With so much travel these days between Eretz Yisroel and the diaspora 
lands, instant worldwide communication, so many youngsters as well as 
more mature students studying in the Holy Land, and massive amounts 
of Judaica produced in and exported from there, we are faced with a 
virtual invasion of foreign customs.

<Snip>

So first and foremost, people have to be alerted about this dangerous 
phenomenon. And then hopefully they will take steps to counter this 
dangerous fad, and reject the foreign adulterated customs, " .

I will list here a few examples of such dangerous foreign imports, 
the mislabeled practices that need to be exposed for what they are, 
Sepharadic minhagim posing as Ashkenazic minhogim. Some of them have 
been written about previously, while others will perhaps " will be 
the subjects of future posts.

1) Chalaka (a word of Arabic origin), also known as Upsherin in Yiddish.

2) Bonfires and other questionable Lag Baomer activities.

3) Expanded version of the last part of Rosh Chodesh Bentching <snip>

4) Kaddish after Krias HaTorah being given to any aveil, rather than 
being said by the baal Kriah, as per the classical minhog.

5) Cheap Judaica trinkets, e.g. Sepharadic/Oriental 
<http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%95%D7%95%D7%99%D7%AA%D7%99
>Shivisis 
and <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamsa>Hamsas. The former are 
sometimes purchased by well meaning people and given to Shuls, where 
sometimes unwittingly they are accepted and hung, usually at the 
amud, despite being against Ashkenazic practice. The latter may be 
hung or worn by individuals.

6) Finger pointing (pinky or other) at the sefer Torah during hagbah. 
The minhag Ashkenaz is to bow toward the sefer Torah then, an earlier 
recorded minhog mentioned in the Shulchan Aruch, a gesture of 
reverence and respect toward the holy Torah. But now one sees quite a 
few people in some places doing the easier finger pointing which 
lacks the type of giving of kavod to the Torah that bowing shows.

7) Hallel in Shul on Pesach night. Minhag Ashkenaz is only to say it 
at the seder later.

People have to be aware of this serious problem, take a stand, and 
refuse to go along with the adulteration of our holy Ashkenazic 
heritage, which happens when people accept such customs.

See the above URL for the entire article.

Yitzchok Levine 


------------------------------


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