Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 96

Wed, 15 Jun 2011

• 1. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Rafi Hecht)
• 2. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Rafi Hecht)
• 4. Re: Halachic Analysis: The Hillary Photo Controversy (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Liron Kopinsky)
• 7. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Lisa Liel)
• 8. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Allan Engel)
• 9. Bittul of non-K food (Meir Rabi)
• 10. mi ban siach (Eli Turkel)
• 11. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Ben Waxman)
• 13. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Saul Guberman)
• 14. standard opinion (Eli Turkel)

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 10:14 AM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
>  From http://tinyurl.com/3uuyha3

> One of the more difficult challenges we face in keeping the holy minhogim
> of our Ashkenazic ancestors is posed by present day unrestricted imports
> from Eretz Yisroel, of Sepharadic minhagim posing as Ashkenazic ones.
...

Loaded question: When Jews were initially exiled to Germany many centuries
ago, which Minhagim did they originally practice? Did anyone say that their
Minhagim were an adulteration of ancient Israel/Babylonian Minhagim?

Is there a stop to Minhagim being developed over the years? We no longer
live in Germany, we now live in other countries, and it seems that in modern
Israel Sephardic minhagim are seeping into Ashkenazim as Ashkenazi minhagim
are into Sepharadim. This is simply the fact.

Best Regards,

Rafi Hecht
rhe...@gmail.com
www.rafihecht.com
---
Never Trust a Computer You Can't Throw Out a Window - Steve Wozniak

At 11:17 AM 6/15/2011, Rafi Hecht wrote:
>Loaded question: When Jews were initially exiled to Germany many 
>centuries ago, which Minhagim did they originally practice? Did 
>anyone say that their Minhagim were an adulteration of ancient 
>Israel/Babylonian Minhagim?

Rabbi Binyamin Shlomo Hamburger's 4 seforim Shorshe Minhag Ashkenaz 
deal with the historical origin and development of Ashkenaz minhagim.

YL

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
> Rabbi Binyamin Shlomo Hamburger's 4 seforim Shorshe Minhag Ashkenaz deal
> with the historical origin and development of Ashkenaz minhagim.

Ah, development of Minhagim! Just as I thought!

Many times customs abound from other customs.

Best Regards,

Rafi Hecht
rhe...@gmail.com
www.rafihecht.com
---
Never Trust a Computer You Can't Throw Out a Window - Steve Wozniak

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 09:11:11AM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
: So, here is something from R' Yehoshua Pfeffer's discussion
: of the permissability of hiring a performer to do a magic show
: <http://www.dinonline.org/2010/06/24/a-halachic-glance-at-magic>:
...

which I had hoped would prove that we worry lemaaseh about creating
a misimpression that has no impact on the person being mislead. It's
neither leading to hezeq nor geneivas mamon.

depends how you define non-consequential. If we speaking of
non-consequential changes like enhancing the lighting or contrast on a
photo, I would agree that there is no issur. Anything that creates no
impression at all can't create a false one.

But if it's something like a magic show, there the person in question is
fooled but it doesn't cost him anything, I did bring sources that say it's
assur. I brought the Bach, the Shach, the Chayei Adam, the CC and Diberos
Moshe on the gemara, as well as the original gemaros which list cases
where bending the truth is mutar (and "it makes no difference to them"
isn't there)... I also pointed you to mar'eh meqomos for further research.

Tosafos say that if someone was late and is asked why, and the real reason
happens to be that he was having relations, he may lie. Why require the
heter of puria, since the person asking has no financial or other stake
in the answer anyway?

Studying the sugya, too many rishonim are like this Tosafos -- they make
no sense if we assume midevar sheqer tirchaq is "merely" another form
of prohibited hezeq or geneivas mamon.



Aside from the cases of shinui (not outright saying something false)
already listed in the gemara, there is another case I would like to
exclude because it's not even geneivas daas. Se the Ran on the mishnah
on Nedarim 24b. If everyone involved understands that the norm is to
exagerate, exageration is mutar -- because it's like they have their
own commonly agreed upon language. I would think the same is true in any
situation where the person would not assume the statement was meant as
literal fact -- no different than story telling or a joke.

But in our case, while the buyers of the paper know that pictures are
edited, it is not so frequently done that most people, looking at a
picture (even one with an empty seat) even start to contemplate that
particular picture's truth. It's not like having a private language,
unlike the Ran's case.



Here are some more sources on the general topic:

 From Linas Tzedeq:
http://www.jewishvalues.us/uploads/101_Emess_vSheker.pdf
http://www.jewishvalues.us/uploads/102_Anochi_Esav.pdf
(The first veers in and out of court-specific situations.) And also to
some extent (althose these focus more on monetary loss):
http://www.jewishvalues.us/uploads/103_Hen_Tzedek.pdf
http://www.jewishvalues.us/uploads/104_Genevas_Daas.PDF

(I was in a chaburah that used those booklets for mar'eh meqomos. We
found at times that reading the longer quote inside rather than relying
on their snippet led us to different conclusions than the author. Good
stuff, very AishDas-y. See <http://www.jewishvalues.us/Sugyos.html>.)

Also, a summary by someone working anonymously out of Lakewood:
<http://halachafortoday.com/ArchivesHilchosMidvarShekerTirchak.aspx>.

RAZZivitofsky's treatment of the topic from Judaism, Summer 1993:
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/1993-Truthfullness-Judaism.pdf
posted as part of the thread
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=M#MIDVAR%20SH
EKER%20TIRCHAK>

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

1- The word "scam" is very emotionally loaded and in most of the cases
listed, objectively incorrect. Not every minhag you disagree with
qualifies as a "scam". "Scam" goes beyond "wrong".

2- Speaking of development of minhagim... Why was the development
of minhagim when various groups (mostly from EY, some directly, some
via Italy, some not from EY but Bavli in origin, etc...) converged on
Ashkenaz, but the same process is deemed invalid after the Maharil?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Live as if you were living already for the
mi...@aishdas.org        second time and as if you had acted the first
http://www.aishdas.org   time as wrongly as you are about to act now!
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

"People have to be aware of this serious problem, take a stand, and
refuse to go along with the adulteration of our holy Ashkenazic
heritage, which happens when people accept such customs."

Don't we have actually serious problems to deal with?
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At 09:14 AM 6/15/2011, Prof. Levine wrote:
>  From http://tinyurl.com/3uuyha3
>
>One of the more difficult challenges we face in keeping the holy 
>minhogim of our Ashkenazic ancestors is posed by present day 
>unrestricted imports from Eretz Yisroel, of Sepharadic minhagim 
>posing as Ashkenazic ones.

<snip>

Wow.  This whole Ashkenazi/Sephardi thing has gotten completely out 
of hand.  Not to mention the very concept of "the holy minhogim".

We're all Jews, for crying out loud.  My great-grandfather was born 
in Belarus, but his family came from Spain before that.  So what am 
I?  Where's the cut-off?  If I go back far enough, my ancestors came 
from Eretz Yisrael.  So did yours.  Do I go by Belarusian minhagim or 
Spanish ones?  Or since my father is still alive, B'H, should I 
follow his minhag and not keep kosher?

>People have to be aware of this serious problem, take a stand, and 
>refuse to go along with the adulteration of our holy Ashkenazic 
>heritage, which happens when people accept such customs.

I disagree that it's a serious problem.  I think the idea that some 
people consider it to be a problem at all *is* a serious problem.

And "adulteration"?  Honestly, that sounds like something out of Dr. 
Strangelove (PBF).  There's an abundance of cultural richness among 
Torah Jewry, and our "holy Ashkenazic ancestors" didn't adopt their 
minhagim in order to declare the minhagim of other Torah Jews to be 
treif, chas v'shalom.

Lisa 

The site also gives the misleading impression that the whole of 'Ashkenaz'
practised the same minhogim.

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 6:35 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> 1- The word "scam" is very emotionally loaded and in most of the cases
> listed, objectively incorrect. Not every minhag you disagree with
> qualifies as a "scam". "Scam" goes beyond "wrong".
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R Sh Z is explaining why our drinking water is Kosher for Pesach use even
though our reservoirs have had Chamets added to them during Pesach. We would
expect that such water ought to be prohibited according to the rule that
food contaminated with Chamets during Pesach will be Assur no matter how
minute the proportion of Chamets; thats the rule of Afilu BeElef Lo Battel.



R Sh Z explains that since the proportion is so tiny that it can not be
discerned by anyone, it is in fact Battel.

This means that R Sh Z understands that when Chazal say Afilu BeElef Lo
Battel, they mean although it is well below the proportion that is usually
Muttar, a special Chumrah has been imposed that nevertheless prohibits it.
However, there MUST be SOMEONE, and there may only be one such person in
every generation, the expert wine taster who can sample hundreds of samples
and discern which fields the grapes were grown in; who can discern the
Chamets in the water. But when there is NOONE who can discern the flavour of
the Chamets, then the water is permitted. A reservoir is so vast that we can
assume that there is no human who can discern the Chamets in it and it is
therefore KLP.

So in normal Issurim when we use the guide of taste we are NOT using this
singular expert taster, we are relying on the chefs who have a slightly
elevated sense of taste. This has been reduced to a rule of thumb, 1:60,
Shishim. So even where it is humanly discernible by the singular expert
tasters, it is nevertheless Kosher since the mixture is Battel BeShishim.



Does this not demonstrate that in Bittul of 60 we DO have the possibility
that it may be discernible by human tasting and yet it is Battel? R Micha I
don?t understand why you say, ?I don't see where you get that [i.e. we DO
have the possibility that it may be discernible by human tasting and yet it
is Battel] from what you cited besheim RSZA.?


R Micha also said, ?I understood RSZA to be saying the reverse -- bitul
be1000 does not work for pesach, but if the one-in-a-million taster could
verify it has no taste in the taaroves, it would be batel. IOW, that the
rule of thumb is not sufficiently reliable?



But I don?t see it that way. Firstly, if the ROTh is NOT sufficiently
reliable, then why bother making a new measure of 1:1000. Use the old rule
of 1:60 and say, it is NOT reliable for Pesach and any food possibly
contaminated with Chamets is Assur UNLESS ?the one-in-a-million taster could
verify? that no taste is discernible.



Secondly, the rule of thumb is that Bitttul does NOT work for Chamets during
Pesach, this means that there is No Bitttul EVER. At least that it is the
way it is understood by those who store water BEFORE Pesach to use during
Pesach, so that it WILL be Battel. It is this argument that R Sh Z is
demolishing. He re-defines Bittul BeElef: it does NOT mean that there is
NEVER a Bittul, it means no Bittul as long as it is humanly discernible. So
when we are sure that it is NOT humanly discernible, then we may use it.



Accordingly, foods cooked in clean factory machines, which many argue are so
massive that they are more than Shishim of the foods they are used to cook,
(we can also consider the boiler water which is contaminated with non-K
foods) and therefore make any foods cooked in them non-Kosher, when they are
BYoman; in fact are really Kosher since there is no human capable of
discerning any non-K taste in the cooked food.
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<<This prayer (?) is now fairly standard at Ashkenazi weddings>>

At weddings I attend one rarely hears this. However, following Prof. Levine
this may be an infiltration of non-ashkenazi customs

-- 
Eli Turkel
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At 03:10 PM 6/15/2011, Ben Waxman wrote:
>It's called kibbutz galiyot and bitul hagalut. Get onboard professor!

On board what?  Living in EY should not cause one to abandon 
Ashkenazic minhagim.  (BTW, the person who writes this blog lives in EY.)

Question:  In EY the Torah was read in a 3 or 3 and half year 
cycle.  If you want to follow the original EY way,  then why are you 
following the Babylonian yearly cycle?   The answer is because when 
they went back to EY they took with them their Golus minhagim.


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From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
> With so much travel these days between Eretz Yisroel and the diaspora 
> lands, instant worldwide communication, so many youngsters as well as 
> more mature students studying in the Holy Land, and massive amounts 
> of Judaica produced in and exported from there, we are faced with a 
> virtual invasion of foreign customs.

It's called kibbutz galiyot and bitul hagalut. Get onboard professor!

From: Prof. Levine 
> Question: In EY the Torah was read in a 3 or 3 and half year cycle.
> If you want to follow the original EY way, then why are you following
> the Babylonian yearly cycle? The answer is because when they went
> back to EY they took with them their Golus minhagim.

By the way, I never said that I want to follow the original EY
minhag. That is Machon Shilo's thing. I said that minhag changes and
there is nothing wrong with that. Certainly using the word "scam" to
describe the process is outrageous.



Professor do you know I don't speak Yiddish? Because my grandfather
moved to America.

Yes, moving causes changes. Living, working, marrying, with Jews from
all over the world causes changes. It is inevitable.

And I will repeat the question that has been asked to you several times
already: Minhag Askkenaz has changed/developed over the centuries. Why
do you (and this web site) want the process of change to stop?

Even the example that you give (reading the Torah) proves the point:
there was an original minhag and it changed!!!

If you want to go back to "original minhag" in everything, then drop
kitniyot. Pronounce ayins and chets. Allow yibum. The list is endless.

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 13:45, Allan Engel <allan.en...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 6:35 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>> 1- The word "scam" is very emotionally loaded and in most of the cases
>> listed, objectively incorrect. Not every minhag you disagree with
>> qualifies as a "scam". "Scam" goes beyond "wrong".

> The site also gives the misleading impression that the whole of 'Ashkenaz'
> practised the same minhogim.

Not even the whole of Germany practiced the same minhagim.

<<It seems to me that the Maharitz Chajes is talking about a shift from when
acharei rabim lehatos went from being a hard-and-fast rule to being a rule
of thumb, a factor to consider but could be outweighed by other factors.>>

The Mahartz Chajes is quite long and so I can't quote it. However, my
reading is that he
claims that in the days of the Sanhedrin if one had his own opinion and was
sure that the Sanhedrin was wrong he should continue with his own views.
This is because maybe he could have convinced the majority of his opinion.
However, if the Sanhedrin debated the issue with him and voted against him
then the minority must follow the majority.

However, where there is no Sanhedrin there is no such thing as a majority or
a minority since that requires a debate in person ( be-maamad echad peh el
peh)

One of the proofs is from the Ralbach who opposed the re-enactment of
Semicha in Safed and stated that even though he was a minority since he was
not consulted he does not have to go along.

The Mahartz Chajes seems to deny the concept of minority and majority
outside of a frontal debate we occasionally hold like the minority for a
great loss or if the minority is greater (eg bet shammai except for other
reasons). In a Sanhedrin it is clear we follow a straight majority and dont
take other things into account however, otherwise the minority opinion is
always acceptable.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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