Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 97

Thu, 16 Jun 2011

• 1. Re: mi ban siach (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: mi ban siach (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: mi ban siach (Gershon Dubin)
• 4. Re: Mi Ban Siach (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: mi ban siach (Micha Berger)
• 6. Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Prof. Levine)
• 7. minhagim (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 9. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Saul Guberman)
• 11. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Lisa Liel)
• 12. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Micha Berger)
• 13. Mi Ban Siach (Richard Wolberg)
• 14. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 15. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Rich, Joel)
• 16. Re: mi ban siach (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 17. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Danny Schoemann)
• 18. Tznius for Men (Prof. Levine)

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 10:22:07PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: At weddings I attend one rarely hears this. However, following Prof. Levine
: this may be an infiltration of non-ashkenazi customs

I dunno, I don't think I ever attended a wedding where "Mi Bon Siach" was
/not/ sung.

The words are based on Shir haShirim Rabba 2:4 and part of a longer piut
found in Machzor Vitri. They are (to the best of my transliterating
abilities):
    Mi bon siach shoshan chochim,
    Ahavas kallah, mesos dodim,
    Hu yivarech es hechasan v'es hakallah

My translation:
    The One Who knows the speech of a rose among thorns
    the love of a bride and the joy of lovers
    He will bless the groom and the bride.

Although the words seem to be saying that the "siach shoshan" is "ahavas
kallah" and "mesos dodim", the source medrash indicates that the sichah
in question is sheva berakhos. "The way of the world is that 10 people
enter the beis mishteh, and none of them can open his mouth to pless birkhas
chasanim. One comes and opens his mouth and blesses birkhas chasanim. What
is he like among them? Like a shoshanah bein hachochim."

Thus, it's a list: Hashem who knows three things: (1) 7 berakhos, (2)
ahavas kallah, and (3) mesos dodim, will bless the couple.



Personally, I think "sichah" has flirtatious overtones, as in "al
tarbeh sichah im ha'ishah". I would link this to the use of "lasuach
basadeh" when the Torah describes what chazal tell us is Yitzchaq's
tefillah. Yitzchaq's name is linked to this kind of Shir haShirim theme
when the Torah plays on it and tells us "Yitzchak metzachek es Rivqa
ishto..."

And that would explain its use here, as well. See 2:1, which describes
Rivqa as the shoshanah bein hachochim (Lavan haArami / ramai).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 04:18:00PM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
: The words are based on Shir haShirim Rabba 2:4 and part of a longer piut
: found in Machzor Vitri. They are (to the best of my transliterating
: abilities):
:     Mi bon siach shoshan chochim,
:     Ahavas kallah, mesos dodim,
:     Hu yivarech es hechasan v'es hakallah

Given my transliteration scheme, that sheva should make it "yevareich".
Reminds me of metaheir vs mitaheir...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Education is not the filling of a bucket,
mi...@aishdas.org        but the lighting of a fire.
http://www.aishdas.org                - W.B. Yeats
Fax: (270) 514-1507

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Micha Berger mi...@aishdas.org

<<I dunno, I don't think I ever attended a wedding where "Mi Bon Siach" was
/not/ sung.>>
I THINK the Sefardi (Syrian) weddings don't, hence my phrasing.

<<The words are based on Shir haShirim Rabba 2:4 and part of a longer piut
found in Machzor Vitri.>>
Did you see it in the MV?  The source I quoted IIRC couldn't find it.
<<   The One Who knows the speech of a rose among thorns
   the love of a bride and the joy of lovers
   He will bless the groom and the bride.>>
According to the Midrash cited, it is the mesader kiddushin (or other
people who say the sheva berachos) who are intended.  Not the RBSh"O. 
Hence the lack of satisfaction.  And what's with this ahavas kallah stuff? 
It would be banned if someone wrote it today.
IOW, I disagree with your interpretation but have no better, satisfying
one, which is where I came in (to use another
would-be-banned-if-"they"-knew-its-origin).
Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
____________________________________________________________
Groupon.com Official Site
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On 15/06/2011 9:21 AM, Gershon Dubin wrote:
> This prayer (?) is now fairly standard at Ashkenazi weddings.

I have always assumed it to be the second verse of "mi adir...".


> Does  anyone know what it means?

The translation seems simple enough: "He who understood the speech
of the Rose Among the Thorns (i.e. Knesses Yisroel), the love of a
kalloh, the joy of union, may He bless the chosson and kalloh.
The reference in the first clause is obvious; I don't know whether
the second and third clauses are also references to something, or
just meant literally (note that the Shaar Hakolel I cite later
doesn't have these clauses).

Ad kan my own understanding.  For actual mekoros, see the following:

Shaar Hakollel 35:4
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=16002&;pgnum=99

Shulchan Ho'ezer, Simlo Latzvi 7:4:9
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8556&;pgnum=68
(see also 7:4:6, on the previous page:
   http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8556&;pgnum=67 )

Shu"t Devar Moshe #109
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=687&;pgnum=382


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 08:38:07PM +0000, Gershon Dubin wrote:
: From: Micha Berger mi...@aishdas.org
:> I dunno, I don't think I ever attended a wedding where "Mi Bon Siach" was
:> /not/ sung.

: I THINK the Sefardi (Syrian) weddings don't, hence my phrasing.

I thought RET said it wasn't commonly done in his circles. And "Turkel"
is an Ashkenazi. I was replying in surprise to that.

:> The words are based on Shir haShirim Rabba 2:4 and part of a longer piut
:>  found in Machzor Vitri.

: Did you see it in the MV?  The source I quoted IIRC couldn't find it.

I didn't. I saw the shu"t Siach Yitzchaq (Bar Ilan edition) cited the MV.
Now that I reopened it, I see he was where I saw the linkage to ShS Rabba 2
as well.

:>   The One Who knows the speech of a rose among thorns
:>   the love of a bride and the joy of lovers
:>   He will bless the groom and the bride.

: According to the Midrash cited, it is the mesader kiddushin (or other
: people who say the sheva berachos) who are intended. Not the RBSh"O.

I don't see that. It's the One Who knows the speech of the mesader
qidushin, the rose among thorns. Two levels of knowing: The mesader
qidushin is the one-in-ten of the medrash who knows how to bless the bride
and groom, and is thus the shoshan. Second, Hashem is the One Who
understands that shoshan's sichah.

And so I see the poem saying that the true blessing is not what the couple
receive as sheva berakhos, but when HQBH responds to those berakhos with
His own.

: Hence the lack of satisfaction. And what's with this ahavas kallah stuff?
: It would be banned if someone wrote it today.

You need it frummed up? I don't think it's the intent, but try:
    The One Who knows the speech of a rose among thorns,
    the Beloved of a bride and the Joy of lovers,
    He will bless the groom and the bride.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them,
mi...@aishdas.org        I have found myself, my work, and my God.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Helen Keller
Fax: (270) 514-1507

At 03:49 PM 6/15/2011, avodah-requ...@lists.aishdas.org wrote:

> > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 6:35 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> >> 1- The word "scam" is very emotionally loaded and in most of the cases
> >> listed, objectively incorrect. Not every minhag you disagree with
> >> qualifies as a "scam". "Scam" goes beyond "wrong".
>
> > The site also gives the misleading impression that the whole of 'Ashkenaz'
> > practised the same minhogim.
>
>Not even the whole of Germany practiced the same minhagim.

Believe it or not, I agree with all of the above.  YL
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<<Question:  In EY the Torah was read in a 3 or 3 and half year
cycle.  If you want to follow the original EY way,  then why are you
following the Babylonian yearly cycle?   The answer is because when
they went back to EY they took with them their Golus minhagim.>>

According to academics (TaShma, Grossman etc) original Ashkenazi minhagim
are an amalgam of laws from the Bavli together with many customs of EY that
came
from southern Italy (under Byzantine rule) to Northern Italy and then to
Mainz.

As many have pointed out minhagim constantly evolve as populations move and
circumstances changes. I am not clear why this stress on German minhagim. On
a personal level my minhagim are a mish-mash of chassidic customs from home
and Litvishe things I learned in yeshiva. I can attest that I am not a
solitary example.

There are some charedi communities in EY that don't mix with other groups.
However, in many communities sefardim and ashkenazim marry not to speak of
chassidim and litvaks. In theory minhagim follow the husband but in real
life the kids are brought up with some mixture. As I already said
differences between home and yeshiva life lead to further dilution of strict
minhagim.

RMF already points out that New York and many other places no longer have a
minhag hamakom which affects many laws.
BTW I was confused by the original post. Many of the examples given are not
Israeli/Sefardi customs but Chassidic customs like saying Hallel in shul on
Pesach eve. True the original chassidim adopted some sefardi customs but
that is another whole game.
-- 
Eli Turkel
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R' Yitzchok Levine quoted "Treasures of Ashkenaz":

> One of the more difficult challenges we face in keeping the
> holy minhogim of our Ashkenazic ancestors is posed by present
> day unrestricted imports from Eretz Yisroel, of Sepharadic
> minhagim posing as Ashkenazic ones.

This is nothing new. As I see it, it is merely an extension of Chassidic
minhagim posing as universal ones. Two items from my personal experience
include: (1) When my son was to get married, we asked our rav about wearing
the kittel over or under his jacket. We were surprised to hear that in Lita
they didn't wear a kittel at all. (2) For our tenth anniversary, my wife
bought a beautifil silver atara for my Shabbos tallis. In the days that
followed, I was told that the misnagdic minhag is to specifically *not*
have such an atara.

I suppose I'm contributing to the phenomenon that "Treasures of Ashkenaz"
is objecting to, because my son did wear a kittel, and I'm still wearing my
atara. I'm not sure if this is a bad thing or a good thing.

But I *am* fairly certain that there was a point in time when no one wore a
kittel, and no one had an atara. There was even a time when no one said any
kind of kaddish after Krias Hatorah, and some people lit 8 neros on the
first night of Chanukah.

My point is that it is the nature of customs to develop and change over
time. In fact, it could be argued that if the nature of a given society
changes, then it *needs* to change its minhagim as well.

We have discussed before, on these pages, that the separation of "Minhag
Avos" from "Minhag Hamakom" is a very recent one, and it is not clear to me
why one should automatically trump the other. We shall see how it turns
out, or perhaps our great-grandchildren will see.

> People have to be aware of this serious problem, take a stand,
> and refuse to go along with the adulteration of our holy
> Ashkenazic heritage, which happens when people accept such
> customs.

I can't help but wonder how things might have turned out if such protests had been made when the "holy Ashkenazic heritage" was just beginning.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Mom Is 55, Looks 30...
Her clever $5 wrinkle therapy angers Botox Doctors. Find Out How!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4df911106d5ec507efast02vuc

At 03:37 PM 6/15/2011, Ben Waxman wrote:
>And I will repeat the question that has been asked to you several 
>times already: Minhag Askkenaz has changed/developed over the 
>centuries. Why do you (and this web site) want the process of change to stop?

Because I do not think that the recent changes are a plus for 
Yahadus.  I am not pleased with where I see things going vis a vis 
Yiddishkeit today, and, from other things that you have written, I do 
not think that you are either.

And again, for the record, I did not write this post on this web site 
and I do not agree with everything that is in it.  However, I felt 
that people would find it of interest, and I see that I was not wrong.  :-)

Yitzchok Levine 
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Why shouldn't place determine the minhag?  Minhag Lita, Poland, Ashkenaz,
these are all places.  If you move and do not adopt the minhagim of the
current place, are you not porush min hatzibbur?



On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 15:18, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

>  At 03:10 PM 6/15/2011, Ben Waxman wrote:
>
> It's called kibbutz galiyot and bitul hagalut. Get onboard professor!
>
>
> On board what?  Living in EY should not cause one to abandon Ashkenazic
> minhagim.  (BTW, the person who writes this blog lives in EY.)
>
> Question:  In EY the Torah was read in a 3 or 3 and half year cycle.  If
> you want to follow the original EY way,  then why are you following the
> Babylonian yearly cycle?   The answer is because when they went back to EY
> they took with them their Golus minhagim.
>
>
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At 02:18 PM 6/15/2011, Prof. Levine wrote:
>At 03:10 PM 6/15/2011, Ben Waxman wrote:
>>It's called kibbutz galiyot and bitul hagalut. Get onboard professor!
>
>On board what?  Living in EY should not cause one to abandon 
>Ashkenazic minhagim.  (BTW, the person who writes this blog lives in EY.)

Of course it should.  Minhag goes by makom; not by ancestry.

Lisa 

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 03:18:40PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Question:  In EY the Torah was read in a 3 or 3 and half year cycle.  If 
> you want to follow the original EY way,  then why are you following the 
> Babylonian yearly cycle?   The answer is because when they went back to 
> EY they took with them their Golus minhagim.

As RET already noted, most academics who study the history of halakhah
(including the O ones) feel that Ashk has a richer mix of people who
left EY among some Bavliim, as opposed to Seph whose roots are more
exclusively Bavli.

RRW posted numerous examples to buttress this, numerous times. Cases
where Ashk minhag diverges from shas in ways that follow the Y-mi or
the midreshei halakhah.

So, if you want to follow the *original* Ashk minhag, do what your
ancestors and Teimanim did and lein in a Shavuos to 3rd Shavuos 3
year cycle!

Minhagim changed before, and they ought to change again.

We live in a rare time, when immigrant communities are still merging to
form new ones. We are in a situation not seen since the days when Ashk
and Seph first got started. And we won't be around to see how things
turn out -- it takes generations. We pray the process will be derailed
by the effects of having a Sanhedrin.

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 04:08:22PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Because I do not think that the recent changes are a plus for Yahadus.  I
> am not pleased with where I see things going vis a vis Yiddishkeit today,
> and, from other things that you have written, I do not think that you are
> either.

I agree to this point, but not because the change in itself is
bad. Rather, it's because of the mechanism of change. We live in an
era that has a shortage of erev Shabbos Jews, where there is too much
focus on frumkeit rather than ehrlachkeit and yesodei haTorah. And so
our new minhagim are coming from places of textualism and (in the more
aggregious cases) out-frumming the Cohens.

I would be happier if we looked around at our new locations, lifestyles,
and the zeitgeist, and thought about which practices would actually aid
our work at acheiving qedushah, sheleimus and deveiqus, and adopted those.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You will never "find" time for anything.
mi...@aishdas.org        If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Charles Buxton
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R' E.T. wrote:
At weddings I attend one rarely hears this. However, following Prof. Levine
this may be an infiltration of non-ashkenazi customs.

I chant it at every wedding following the Mi Adir paragraph.
I learned it years ago as sung by Mordechai Hershman z"l.

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 04:08:22PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Because I do not think that the recent changes are a plus for Yahadus.  I
> am not pleased with where I see things going vis a vis Yiddishkeit today,
> and, from other things that you have written, I do not think that you are
> either.

R' MB:
I agree to this point, but not because the change in itself is
bad. Rather, it's because of the mechanism of change. We live in an
era that has a shortage of erev Shabbos Jews, where there is too much
focus on frumkeit rather than ehrlachkeit and yesodei haTorah. And so
our new minhagim are coming from places of textualism and (in the more
aggregious cases) out-frumming the Cohens.
--------------------


new minhagim is not so much because they are new minhagim - as I'm sure
he'll agree, and like R' MB said earlier, minhagim changed before and will
change again. But the sheer volume of change makes it seem like there's a
qualitative difference between the changes now and earlier changes. In
earlier times, because of lack of mobility and communication, it might have
taken a hundred years for a minhag to be adopted in a community, while today
new practices (whether or not they rise to the level of minhag) are adopted
in a matter of years. But the truth is that this isn't a qualitative change
but a quantitative one - just compressing the timeline. 

KT,
MYG

 


I think that one of the reasons people like R' YL are uncomfortable with
the new minhagim is not so much because they are new minhagim - as I'm sure
he'll agree, and like R' MB said earlier, minhagim changed before and will
change again. But the sheer volume of change makes it seem like there's a
qualitative difference between the changes now and earlier changes. In
earlier times, because of lack of mobility and communication, it might have
taken a hundred years for a minhag to be adopted in a community, while
today new practices (whether or not they rise to the level of minhag) are
adopted in a matter of years. But the truth is that this isn't a
qualitative change but a quantitative one - just compressing the timeline. 

KT,
MYG

_______________________________________________
To me it's also in some cases  the (unknowing?) pretense that there is no change and that the prior generation "forgot" that in "the alte heim" everyone did X.
KT
Joel Rich
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R' GD (I think!):
: Hence the lack of satisfaction. And what's with this ahavas kallah stuff?
: It would be banned if someone wrote it today.
-------------



KT,
MYG

>> The site also gives the misleading impression that the whole of 'Ashkenaz'
>> practised the same minhogim.
>
> Not even the whole of Germany practiced the same minhagim.

No kidding. The Rodelheim Siddur is full of "in Metz they [don't]
say", or Frankfurt or other places.

I recall when somebody brought us - in the Adas Yeshurun in Jo'burg -
a copy of Breuer's Chazzan Siddur. It was impossible to use; they have
a lot of Nussach changes.

I suspect that each community had it's own [slowly evolving] Minhogim
and Nussach, meant to keep the entire community together and avoid "Lo
Thisgodedu". If you moved to a new city you adapted; when in Rome...

It's somewhat amusing - and rather tragic - that this "unifying force"
has become the cornerstone of most of the visible divisions in Klal
Yisroel.

It's also disconcerting to see people wage war over a deviation in
Minhag, whereas flagrant violations of Halocho are ignored. (Not to
mention that these arguments themselves are a Torah prohibition of
"Machlokes; being like Korach").

- Danny

The following if from today's Hakhel email bulletin.

Special Note Four:  With the summer fast approaching in the Northern 
Hemisphere, the heat and humidity could pose a challenge to the most 
basic standards of Tznius.  We asked Rabbi Dovid Weinberger, Shlita, 
who has given outstanding Shiurim for Hakhel and Bnos Melochim on the 
topic of Tznius, whether he could provide us with the minimum rules 
so that no one was nichshal c'v due to lack of knowledge, by 
regarding a real halacha as 'only a chumra'.  By the following 
link  --  <http://tinyurl.com/6d5p76x>http://tinyurl.com/6d5p76x  -- 
we provide the basic rulings of our Gedolim, and a previous appeal 
issued by the then Va'ad HaRabonim of Far Rockaway.  Any help you can 
provide in spreading the word (and giving chizuk to others) would 
most certainly serve as a Torah counter-measure to the to'eva law 
referred to above.

While one hears much about tznius for women,  I personally have heard 
almost nothing about this issue when it comes to men.  I have from 
time to time wondered why this is the case, particularly in light of 
the following  from http://www.davening.net/tznius.html

Humility is a paramount ideal within Judaism. Moses is referred to as 
"exceedingly humble, more than any man in the world" (Bamidbar 12:3). 
The Jewish people, as a whole, are said to be humble (Talmud, 
Tractate Yevamot 79a.)

Tznius includes a group of laws concerned with modesty, in both dress 
and behavior. It is first mentioned in this context by the prophet 
Micah (6:8): "[...] and to walk humbly (hatzne'a leches) with your God".

Men must wear shirts, with sleeves. Modern Orthodox men will wear 
shorts, but Haredi men will not, and many will not wear short sleeves at all.

Mandatory laws
There are several levels to the observance of physical and personal 
modesty (tznius) according to Orthodox Judaism as derived from 
various sources in halakha.
    * A person should not dwell on lascivious or immoral thoughts.
    * Avert one's eyes from staring at members of the opposite sex, 
particularly at any part of the female anatomy.
    * Keep most of one's body clothed in respectable clothing. Avoid 
the company of uncouth individuals and where an atmosphere of levity 
and depravity prevails.
    * Avoid looking at pictures or scenes that will be sexually arousing.
    * Avoid touching a person of the opposite sex (i.e. by observing 
negiah), especially in a lingering arousing manner (shaking hands 
very quickly in greeting between sexes is a point of dispute, and 
depends on customs).
    * Do not wear the clothing of a member of the opposite sex.
    * Do not erotically hug (chibuk) or kiss (nishuk) your spouse 
unless you are in private and when the wife is definitely not a 
niddah ("menstruant").
Is there perhaps a double standard regarding this issue within the O 
community?  YL

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