Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 99

Fri, 17 Jun 2011

• 1. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Bittul of non-K and Chametz during Pesach (Meir Rabi)
• 3. Re: Tznius for Men (Ben Waxman)
• 4. minhagim (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 6. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Ben Waxman)
• 7. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Ben Waxman)
• 8. Re: Minhog Scams - Kadish after Krias HaTorah (Akiva Blum)
• 9. All Ye Into The Melting Pot! Melting Pot Minhogim Vs. Minhag Avos ? Minhogim Fads Vs. Mesorah (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Ehrlechkeit, not Frumkeit (Prof. Levine)
• 11. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! Mislabeled, Cheap Middle Eastern Imports Flooding In, Threatening To Overwhelm Natives! (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! (Ben Waxman)
• 13. Tznius (Prof. Levine)
• 14. Re: Tznius for Men (kennethgmil...@juno.com)

At 02:44 PM 6/16/2011, Lisa Liel wrote:

>>  If it is true that  Minhag goes by makom, not by ancestry,  then 
>> why doesn't all of America follow the minhagim of the 
>> Spanish/Portuguese Jews who first came here?   All of the shuls 
>> founded in America until the middle of the 19th century followed 
>> the Spanish/Portuguese ritual.
>
>There was no distinct Sephardic community in the US the way there 
>had been in Europe.  An Ashkenazi immigrant to a neighborhood that 
>was overwhelmingly Sephardi should absolutely have taken on the 
>Sephardi minhag.  That's how it's been done since Golus began.

I do not understand what you have written.  The first Ashkenaz 
synagogue in America, B'nai Jeshurun, was established in 1825.  Until 
then all synagogues in America followed the Spanish/Portuguese 
ritual. There were synagogues in NY, Philadelphia, 
Newport,  Savannah, Charleston, and Richmond, and they all followed 
the Spanish/Portuguese ritual.  There synagogues were the Jewish 
communities in these cities.


>>Did not the followers of the GRA who came to EY follow their 
>>minhagim and not those of the Sephardim who were already in 
>>EY?  Shouldn't they have followed the minhagim that were in effect 
>>when they arrived, according to you?
>
>If they settled amongst the Sephardim (which I don't believe they 
>did), then yes, they should have.  More to the point, they would 
>have.  But they set up their own geographically distinct communities.

You are not correct.  Jerusalem was small at the time when the 
talmidim of the GRA came and all of the Jews lived in close 
proximity.  They all lived within the old walled city until 1860. 
 From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Montefiore

In 1854 his (Sir Moses Montefiore's) friend 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judah_Touro>Judah Touro, a wealthy 
American Jew, died having bequeathed money to fund Jewish residential 
settlement in Palestine. Montefiore was appointed executor of his 
will, and used the funds for a variety of projects, including 
building in 1860 the first Jewish residential settlement and 
almshouse outside of the old walled city of Jerusalem - today known 
as <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishkenot_Sha%27ananim>Mishkenot 
Sha'ananim. This became the first settlement of the 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Yishuv>New Yishuv. Living outside 
the city walls was dangerous at the time, due to lawlessness and 
bandits. Montefiore offered financial inducement to encourage poor 
families to move there. Later on, Montefiore established the two 
Knesset Yisrael neighborhoods, one for Sephardic Jews, one for 
Ashkenazim, which were even further away.

BTW,  the talmidim of the BESHT also came and they kept their 
Chassidic minhogim.


>The idea of Ashkenazim and Sephardim living in the same building and 
>maintaining separate halakhic minhagim is repulsive, and a false 
>understanding of Judaism.

I find the use of the word repulsive, to put it mildly, strange.  Is 
it repulsive that on Pesach in one apartment the Sephardic Jews are 
eating rice and in another next door the Ashkenazic Jews are not 
eating Kitnyos?

>  I've heard that when thousands of Jews began returning to Eretz 
> Yisrael at once, this question was addressed, and the decision was 
> that people should maintain their communities until a unified 
> halakhic authority could be set up.  Like the Israeli 
> "constitutional convention" mandated in the Declaration of 
> Independence, this body was not set up.  But the maintenance of 
> communities wasn't, either.  Instead, people maintained ancestral 
> minhagim while simultaneously mingling geographically, and split 
> the nation in a way that Korah and his community would have been proud of.
>
>Lisa

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HaRav Sh Z, explains that although Chamets during Pesach is not Battel
1:1000, nevertheless it is Battel when it is not at all discernible. This
means that at 1:1000 it is still discernible. Consequently 1:60 is certainly
discernible. Now this is strange since 1:60 is the rule of thumb at which we
assume taste is no longer discernible.
It seems that HaRav Sh Z is saying that at 1:1000 (which is not an exact
ratio - unlike 1:60) only the most finely attuned palates can discern. That
is enough to render Chamets during Pesach, not Battel.
At =>1:60 the average palate can discern flavour, that is enough to render
ordinary non-K foods a significant factor in the mixture thereby making the
mixture prohibited.
At <1:60 that average palate can not discern the flavour, that is enough to
render ordinary non-K foods an insignificant factor in the mixture thereby
making the mixture permitted.

What happens if we have food produced in machinery which has non-K BeliOs,
which by calculation are =>1:60 yet are not discernible by even the most
finely honed palate?

I therefore believe that these perspectives of HaRav Sh Z are remarkable.
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So:

1) Non-erotic nude pictures (a nude in a museum, or lhavdil, a Holocaust picture) is OK?
2) Things like a couple holding hands in public is OK?

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Prof. Levine 

  Mandatory laws
  There are several levels to the observance of physical and personal
  modesty (tznius) according to Orthodox Judaism as derived from various
  sources in halakha.
    a.. Avoid looking at pictures or scenes that will be sexually arousing. 
    b.. Do not erotically hug (chibuk) or kiss (nishuk) your spouse unless you are in private and when the wife is definitely not a niddah ("menstruant"). 
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<<> Lisa wrote:  Minhag goes by makom; not by ancestry.>>

When the Rosh moved from Germany to Spain he kept most of his Ashenazi minhagim
and discusses his preference for Ashkenazi minhagim in detail.
It would also seem that his direct descendants also did at least for a while.
I am not sure if it is known how many generations his descendants kept
their ashkenazi customs.
Interestingly in mentioning various differences he does not list a
different accent as being one of the difference.

As to Rav Kook many assume his position is that changing pronunciation
leads to many mistakes and so does not apply to the next generation
that is brought up in EY

-- 
Eli Turkel

R' Saul Z. Newman wrote:

> it's not clear to me the objective criterion on when to raise
> the threat of cherem, calumny etc  to new minhagim/practices.

My opinion is that these threats were rarely if ever used because there was
any real problem with the new practices. More often it was simply a way of
enforcing community standards, and a geder against people leaving Torah
altogether.

> let me ask this. i know in some DL communities, the nusach
> haShatz is determined by the Shatz [ie nakdishach for shacharis
> may be followed by naaritzcha for mussaf].

I have seen this practice but I have very little understanding of it. To me
it seems less like adoption of a new minhag, and more like an abdication of
the old minhag.

On a practical basis, I wonder how it works at Mincha; do people pay close
attention to the chatzi kaddish after Ashrei, to see whether the chazan
says "v'yatzmach purkanei", so that they'll know whether to say "N'kadesh"
or "Nakdishach" at Kedusha?

What happens on Sukkos, if an Ashkenaz chazan skips Hoshanos at shacharis,
and then the Nusach Sfard chazan omits it at Musaf? (My guess is that these
shul have a standard practice for such situations. But then isn't that a
violation of the very procedure? Why not just go all the way?)

Moreover, when a child grows up in such a shul, what nusach does he consider his own?

My guess is that if any poskim actually endorse such a procedure, it is
with the logic of the poskim who allow Kaddish Yasom to be said by many
together. Namely, that there is no sense to it at all, but the only
alternative is machlokes. How sad that we can't just be unified by whoever
is the majority.

R"n Lisa Liel wrote:

> The idea of Ashkenazim and Sephardim living in the same building
> and maintaining separate halakhic minhagim is repulsive, and a
> false understanding of Judaism. ... Instead, people maintained
> ancestral minhagim while simultaneously mingling geographically,
> and split the nation in a way that Korah and his community would
> have been proud of.

Well put!

Akiva Miller

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Some of the changes are based on the below, but many other changes (like the 
downplaying of the importance of nusach) are being driven by the ingathering 
and mixing of the different groups. People from different groups live 
together and get married and then the way they live differs from how their 
grandparents live. And all of the above is a good thing.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org>
>
> I agree to this point, but not because the change in itself is
> bad. Rather, it's because of the mechanism of change. We live in an
> era that has a shortage of erev Shabbos Jews, where there is too much
> focus on frumkeit rather than ehrlachkeit and yesodei haTorah. And so
> our new minhagim are coming from places of textualism and (in the more
> aggregious cases) out-frumming the Cohens.
> 

There are things that I might change but my starting point is not "what bubby and tzeidi did was the absolute best and it has all gone bad since then". 

The German community was just one more community in the galut (yes I write
galut and not galus). It has its pluses and minuses, just like every other
community. 

IMO the author of the web site is trying to bring a dead horse to life and is fighting a lost battle. 

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Prof. Levine 
  Because I do not think that the recent changes are a plus for Yahadus.  I
  am not pleased with where I see things going vis a vis Yiddishkeit today,
  and, from other things that you have written, I do not think that you are
  either. 
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org [mailto:avodah-
> boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Prof. Levine
> Sent: Wednesday 15 June 2011 5:14 PM
> 
> 4) Kaddish after Krias HaTorah being given to any aveil, rather than
> being said by the baal Kriah, as per the classical minhog.
> 

Some say that this kaddish davka belongs to the aveilim. See Sdei Chemed.
Shaar Ephraim, Gesher Hachaim say the minhag is to give it to an ovel when
he received the preceding aliya.
Ishei Yisroel (chap. 38, footnote 120) quotes RSZA that this is correct, but
the aveilim should not go up specifically for this reason.

Akiva

Caveat:  Just because I am pointing to this URL does not mean that I 
subscribe to or agree with all that is there.  Nonetheless, I do 
think that it is of interest to see what is there. YL

 From http://tinyurl.com/433zhyg

In the Western world in recent decades (e.g. in the USA, Western 
Europe, and Australia), the melting pot model, encouraging the 
assimilation of immigrants into the dominant white culture, formerly 
the prevailing approach, has been dropped (a similar thing has 
happened in Eretz Yisroel, to a degree). In it's place, a more 
enlightened approach of cultural pluralism was adopted. People of 
different backgrounds could still (or were even encouraged to) 
maintain their culture, language, links to homeland, etc.

But from what I am reading and hearing from some people, it seems 
that some frum Jews still adhere to the melting pot assimilationist 
model. They seem to believe that we all must go into a melting pot 
with regard to minhogim. Everyone must accept the new frum 
commandments of upsherin and the like. After all, it is a mitzvoh 
deoraysa of orlah, right
;-)
 ? And chas veshalom that you refrain from dancing around a bonfire 
on Lag Baomer. How can anyone have the chutzpah to do such a thing 
after all? What are you anyway? Some type of kill joy?

Please see the above URL for the rest of this post.  YL

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At 09:23 PM 6/16/2011, R. Akiva Miller wrote:
>In the "Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise!" thread, R' Micha 
>Berger wrote:
> > We live in an era ... where there is too much focus on
> > frumkeit rather than ehrlachkeit and yesodei haTorah.
>
>I wholeheartedly agree with this, and would love to coin a new 
>slogan to help us focus on that idea. Something which can help us to 
>realize that our ehrlachkeit is lacking, but without casting 
>aspersions on frumkeit.
>
>But I want to be prepared for arguments and backlash...

Please see my article <http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/19683>
"Frum or Ehrliche?" 
The Jewish Press, October 20, 2006, page 1

YL

At 01:32 AM 6/17/2011, Ben Waxman wrote:
>There are things that I might change but my starting point is not 
>"what bubby and tzeidi did was the absolute best and it has all gone 
>bad since then".
>
>The German community was just one more community in the galut (yes I 
>write galut and not galus). It has its pluses and minuses, just like 
>every other community.

I would have thought that you would prefer the term galus,  since 
from your standpoint it is the galus pronunciation and more 
poignantly points out what this term refers to.

>
>IMO the author of the web site is trying to bring a dead horse to 
>life and is fighting a lost battle.

To paraphrase Mark Twain, "The reports of the death of Nusach and 
minhog Ashkenaz have been greatly exaggerated."

Please see http://www.moreshetashkenaz.com/ , 
http://tinyurl.com/3vfp956,  http://tinyurl.com/3qhdk4b and 
http://tinyurl.com/3lqqjjc

Yitzchok Levine 
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From: <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
> My guess is that if any poskim actually endorse such a procedure, it is 
> with the logic of the poskim who allow Kaddish Yasom to be said by many 
> together. Namely, that there is no sense to it at all, but the only 
> alternative is machlokes. How sad that we can't just be unified by whoever 
> is the majority.

Actually I know of a small yishuv, that didn't have enough people for every 
minhag, and they went to R. Eliyahu Tz"l and he told them to simply go by 
the SZ, be it Sephard, Ashkenaz or Eidut HaMizrach. For RH and YK they were 
told that they should try and have a seperate EM minyan but for the rest of 
the year, daven together.


From: <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
> On a practical basis, I wonder how it works at Mincha; do people pay close 
> attention to the chatzi kaddish after Ashrei, to see whether the chazan 
> says "v'yatzmach purkanei", so that they'll know whether to say "N'kadesh" 
> or "Nakdishach" at Kedusha?

From what I can tell, most people simply say their own nusach regardless of 
what the SZ say. Some, like myself, don't say either unless they are 
absolutely sure what the SZ is saying.

Ben

At 09:23 PM 6/16/2011, Sarah Green wrote:
>I would like to thank Dr. Levine for the link to rulings of several Rabbonim.

>However, it should be pointed out that the Rabbonim from Eretz Yisroel have
>different guidelines than some of those in America.

>For example, a 'right-wing' Lakewood posek told me regarding necklines:
>The neck is vertical and need not be covered. The shoulder is horizontal and
>must be completely covered. For the sloping area in between, more 
>than half must
>be covered.

>I am also curious if anyone has a source for the collarbone guideline.

Please see http://tinyurl.com/23jj27a for the "Official Haredi Guide 
to Modest Necklines."

Moving from the neck to the feet, one sees the tznius requirement
that a woman must wear stockings (and not "see through stockings").
However, this is not universally accepted. According to some poskim if
a woman is wearing an ankle length skirt or dress, then her ankles and
feet need not be covered. I once asked R. Avigdor Miller if a woman
had to cover her feet, and he replied, "We are not noheg this way."
According to this, a woman who wears an ankle length skirt or dress
could wear sandals without wearing stockings.

In most of the proclamations about tznius one sees only the strictest 
view with no mention of the opinions that are more lenient.


At 09:23 PM 6/16/2011, R. Joel Rich wrote:
>> The following if from today's Hakhel email bulletin.

>A few questions on the handouts:

>1.who added the handwritten piece about always needing stockings, and
>what is the source?

I have the same question regarding who added this and would contact the
people who sent this out if I knew how to.

It seems to be an accepted opinion that a woman has to wear stockings
unless she wears an ankle length dress or skirt. I have posted some
parts of the sefer Halichos Bas Yisrael by Rabbi Yitzchok Yaakov Fuchs
at http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/areivim/covering_body.pdf that
deal with modesty. Please have a look at what is there.

The following is from the footnote on page 73:

Clearly, many opinions require a woman's dress to be ankle-length.

In spite of the weight of so many contrary views, most Jewish communities
today have adopted the more lenient definition of the Mishnah Berurah. It
is, however, a widely accepted practice to wear non-transparent stockings,
and a woman is obligated to do so in a community which follows this
practice.

Minchath Yitzchak, Vol. 6, No. 10, rules that a woman should wear
stockings at home because strangers or visitors may come at any
time. Nevertheless, HaGaon Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach writes, "According
to the letter of the Law, a woman is not required to wear stockings in
her husband's presence, yet she is still required to wear a dress that
accords with the minimum standards of modesty." According to Shevet
HaLevi, Vol. 5, No. 77, a woman who wears an ankle-length dress need
not wear stockings.

Yitzchok Levine

R' Y. Levine asked:

> Is there perhaps a double standard regarding this issue within
> the O community?

My understanding is that parts of Hilchos Tznius are requirements of halcha
which apply to everyone, and other parts are dependent on community
standards? If so, then most certainly, Yes, there are multiple standards,
varying by which segment of the community one is part of. And there's
absolutely nothing wrong with that.

With that starting point, let's take a look at one of the sources posted by
RYL, http://www.davening.net/tznius.h
tml --

> In the more liberal Modern Orthodox community, women have a more
> relaxed dress code, and often wear sleeveless shirts, shirts
> with low necklines, or tight pants, and cover their knees with
> opaque tights, skirts, or sometimes pants.
> Stricter Modern Orthodox practice is for sleeves to reach the
> elbows and shirts to cover the collarbone, skirts to cover the
> knees, and to eschew pants in the presence of men.
> In the Haredi community, all married women cover their hair
> whenever non-family members are present. Women cover their
> elbows; wear skirts which reach a few inches below the knee,
> often mid-calf; generally avoid skirts with slits, preferring
> instead kick-pleats; cover their collarbones; wear stockings
> and closed-toe shoes; avoid certain colors, especially bright
> red.
> In some communities such as the Haredi community of Jerusalem,
> women wear loose vests over shirts.
> Men must wear shirts, with sleeves. Modern Orthodox men will
> wear shorts, but Haredi men will not, and many will not wear
> short sleeves at all.

I am vary intrigued by all this. With the exception of one short sentence
("Men must wear shirts, with sleeves.") this entire section consists merely
of observations about various parts of the community. At no point do I see
any attempt at telling people how to act. It is all merely a description of
the current status quo.

Given that this website could not possibly have intended to say lashon hara
about any parts of the community, I must conclude that the usefulness of
their observations must be to show us the wide variety of practices.

Based on my understanding of the halachos which apply to everyone, and are
NOT dependent on community standards, I am very surprised that the authors
of that website would have such a casual attitude towards a community where
the Jewish women
> have a more relaxed dress code, and often wear sleeveless shirts,
> shirts with low necklines, or tight pants, and cover their knees
> with opaque tights, skirts, or sometimes pants.

My only conclusion is that just as they merely made this observation without commenting on its standing in halacha, so too, their observation that
> Women ... wear stockings and closed-toe shoes
must also be a mere observation, not commenting on its standing in halacha.

Akiva Miller

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