Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 100

Sun, 19 Jun 2011

• 1. Re: Mi Ban Siach (Arie Folger)
• 2. Re: Mi Ban Siach (Zev Sero)
• 3. bittul (Eli Turkel)
• 4. egg harvesting (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 5. Re: Mi Ban Siach (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: All Ye Into The Melting Pot! (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 7. Re: All Ye Into The Melting Pot! Melting Pot Minhogim Vs. Minhag Avos ? Minhogim Fads Vs. Mesorah (Lisa Liel)
• 8. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! (Lisa Liel)
• 9. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! (Joel Schnur)
• 10. Re: Ehrlachkeit, not Frumkeit (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: standard opinion (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Tznius (T6...@aol.com)
• 13. Re: Tznius (Micha Berger)
• 14. Minhagim and Siddurim (Richard Wolberg)
• 15. Re: Tznius (menucha)
• 16. Re: Minhagim Scams on the Rise... (Poppers, Michael)

RMB correctly identified the source of Mi Bon Siach in Shir haShirim
Rabbah on keshoshana bein hachochim. However, most posts see, IMHO, to
keep on repeating a mistake that shows up in some popular
translation(s): that it is a prayer.

AFAIU, and that is obvious from the midrashic source in question, this
is NOT A PRAYER, it is an invitation for the messader
kiddushin/chazzan who will recite 7 berakhot to step forward.

The words translates into [let the rabbi] who (minor case w) knows the
language of the lily among the thorns (i.e., the language of the Jews,
i.e. Torah) and understands the sublimity of Jewish love and marriage
(this explains why this language is not censured, the TC knows that
this is not about plain erotic love, but about a spiritual, sublime,
elevated expression thereof, in the service of the grand Divine plan)
step forward and bless the couple.

Good Shabbos,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Meditating on the Tragedy in Japan
* Ode an das Pessachfest und den Fr?hling
* Denkmal an den deportierten l?rracher Juden
* Holiday Art
* Will the Judge of the Entire World Not Do Justice?
* When Theodicy Is No Theodicy

On 17/06/2011 7:47 AM, Arie Folger wrote:

> The words translates into [let the rabbi] who (minor case w) knows the
> language of the lily among the thorns (i.e., the language of the Jews,
> i.e. Torah) [...] step forward and bless the couple.

This is what the sources I brought seem to say; but in that case, I have
to ask whether it has any relationship to the previous verse, "Mi Adir...".
I had always assumed that "mi von siach" was simply the second verse of
"Mi Adir".  It surely can't be a coincidence that they both end with the
same line.  And yet according to this understanding, in the first verse
the "Hu" is kodesh and in the second verse it's chol.  Which now that I
think of it shouldn't be a problem; first we invoke Hashem's blessings,
and only then those of a basar vadam.  But that would, I think, be the
source of the misunderstanding (if it really is one).  Especially since
the standard nusach nowadays is in the past tense, "he who understood"
rather than "understands", which sounds as if it refers to a time in the
past, presumably at yetzias Mitzrayim, and therefore to the One Who at
that time listened to and understood the Siach Shoshan Chochim.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

<<HaRav Sh Z, explains that although Chamets during Pesach is not Battel
1:1000, nevertheless it is Battel when it is not at all discernible. This
means that at 1:1000 it is still discernible. Consequently 1:60 is certainly
discernible. Now this is strange since 1:60 is the rule of thumb at which we
assume taste is no longer discernible.>>

I understood that RSZA meant that discernible meant detectable by
means available to chazal
not necessarily taste.

I have trouble understanding those that disagree. If Mashehu is taken
literally I am sure
that with a fine enough microscope one can find chametz in everything.
ie baking matzot there are chametz particles in the air from a nearnt
bakery in extremely small portions

-- 
Eli Turkel

http://www.amotherinisrael.com/freeze-egg-single-orthodox-women/
Rabbi Menachem Boorstein of the Puah fertility institute : We are 
recommending that every single woman over age 32 freeze her eggs 

on shidduch potentials  for older women w fresh eggs.  not clear  1] if 
the technology is reliable   2] if there would  be  poskim buying in  3] 
wide interest in actually doing it......


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On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 01:47:36PM +0200, Arie Folger wrote:
: AFAIU, and that is obvious from the midrashic source in question, this
: is NOT A PRAYER, it is an invitation for the messader
: kiddushin/chazzan who will recite 7 berakhot to step forward.

I already mentioned why I reached a different conclusion. The medrash
compares the mevareikh to the shoshan itself. So then why, "Mi bon"?
That plus RSZ's point about having the same closing line as "Mi adir"
led me to conclude Someone else was being described -- the One Who knows
the speech of the one-in-ten who can properly bless the couple.

I fail to see how that is less loyal to the medrash, and in fact I would
think that by describing the mesadeir qiddushin as the shoshan rather
than a "mi bon siach shoshan", it's /closer/ to it.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
mi...@aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R' Y. Levine wrote:

> But from what I am reading and hearing from some people, it
> seems that some frum Jews still adhere to the melting pot
> assimilationist model. They seem to believe that we all must go
> into a melting pot with regard to minhogim.

I admit that I may have given that impression of my views. Let me clarify.
In many ways, the melting pot produces worthless sludge, while the chulent
pot produces a glorious stew, where each member contributes to the union
*without* losing individuality. I don't mind if neighbors have different
minhagim, as long as they each keep strong to their own strengths. And I
don't see how that can possibly happen in a shul where a roll of the dice
will decide which minhagim we'll follow today.

But not every melting pot produces worthless junk. Done the right way, gold
will be even stronger when it is alloyed with the right partners. And so I
also endorse those who move permanently to a new area and adopt the minhag
hamakom which has been established there. Again, my push is towards the
strengthening of legitimate minhagim, whatever they might be, and not the
adbication thereof.

Akiva Miller

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At 06:34 AM 6/17/2011, Prof. Levine wrote:
>But from what I am reading and hearing from some people, it seems 
>that some frum Jews still adhere to the melting pot assimilationist model.

I think that's a bit offensive, actually.  To suggest that seeing Am 
Yisrael as Echad constitutes assimilationism is a bit over the line.

>They seem to believe that we all must go into a melting pot with 
>regard to minhogim. Everyone must accept the new frum commandments 
>of upsherin and the like. After all, it is a mitzvoh deoraysa of 
>orlah, right ? And chas veshalom that you refrain from dancing 
>around a bonfire on Lag Baomer. How can anyone have the chutzpah to 
>do such a thing after all? What are you anyway? Some type of kill joy?

There's nothing wrong with not dancing around a bonfire.  Even if 
you're Sephardi.

Lisa 

At 10:23 PM 6/16/2011, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
>On a practical basis, I wonder how it works at Mincha; do people pay 
>close attention to the chatzi kaddish after Ashrei, to see whether 
>the chazan says "v'yatzmach purkanei", so that they'll know whether 
>to say "N'kadesh" or "Nakdishach" at Kedusha?

You don't really have to pay such close attention.  That's pretty 
significant.  If people keep saying it after Mashiach comes, *that's* 
when we'll have a minhag problem.  (And I have no doubt that there 
will be some who will.)

Lisa

Regarding the Talmidei HaGra, there were instances where they adopted the
customs of the Sephardim and both are documented. The saying of tefilas Tal
before musaf SE, see siddur Eizer Eliyahu, and the saying of hallel on
Pesach nite, see Miliuim in back of Sefer masse rav, Weintreib(?) edition
(the thick one that came out a few years ago). The latter custom was only
some of them but the miluim also describes the machlokes if the Gra actually
followed that custom. It is mashma that he did not.

 

___________________________

Joel Schnur

Senior VP

Government Affairs/Public Relations

Schnur Associates, Inc.

1350 Avenue of the Americas

Suite 1200

New York, NY 10019

 

Tel. 212-489-0600 x204

Fax. 212-489-0203 

j...@schnurassociates.com 

www.schnurassociates.com
<http://www.schnurassociates.com/>  

 

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On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 06:20:55PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: I wholeheartedly agree with this, and would love to coin a new slogan
: to help us focus on that idea. Something which can help us to realize that
: our ehrlachkeit is lacking, but without casting aspersions on frumkeit.

So just don't mention it.

As I tell a friend who runs a popular blog (not that he's listened),
he would win more people to his derekh by focusing on what's right with
his derekh rather than spending the majority of his blog on what's wrong
with the faster growing communities...

As RSWolbe points out when he explains the title of "Zeri'ah uVinyan
beChinukh", we live in a generation that responds far better to buiding
up the positive than to pruning away the negative. Chinukh might have
historically revolved around breaking bad habits and trends, but RSW
believes we would get much further with today's children building up
proper habits, reinforcing positive neti'os. (I can't comment, as I
didn't actually raise my children this way.)

I think the same thing is true of the same people once they're no longer
chldren. Reinforce the ehrlachkeit they have, teach them to value it
more, and it will more naturally take the spotlight. Frumkeit doesn't
even need to be mentioned.

Thanks to R' Doron Beckerman's post of last April
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol28/v28n053.shtml#05>, I revisited
RSW's essay on frumkeit. (In fact, that thread was also about chumeros
and how frumkeit relates.) I have 3/4 of a blog post written about
it, and had my plan for the blog post in mind when I brought up the
topic in this thread.

In any case, here is a key segment from the currently existing piece of
the forthcoming blog entry:
    ...
    It is the original derogatory usage which is clearly the starting
    point for Rav Shelmo Wolbe's essay on Frumkeit, in Alei Shur II
    pp 152-155 <http://www.aishdas.org/as/frumkeit.pdf>. R' Wolbe takes
    the informal usage of yore and gives it a robust, specific, technical
    meaning. In his hands, the word "frumkeit" refers to an etiology
    for a specific kind of cul-de-sac on the path of religious growth.

    As you may have noticed following this blog, I am a strong advocate
    for a thoughtful and passionate approach to religious observance. As
    the name says, a fusion of passionate aish with the rigor of das's
    law-based rite forming a new thing, a new word, "AishDas". But in my
    discussion of thoughtful Judaism, I have always presumed the antonym
    of thoughtless Judaism, observance based on habit, on culture. Putting
    on tefillin merely because "that's what is done."

    Rav Wolbe notes a different alternative to thoughtfulness --
    instinct. To Rav Wolbe, frumkeit is an instinctive drive to be close
    to the Creator. It is not even specific to humans; the frumkeit
    instinct is what King David refers to when he writes, "kefirim
    sho'agim lataref, ulvaqeish meiKeil ochlam -- lion cubs roar at
    their prey, and request from G-d their food." (Tehillim 104:21) And,
    "nosein lavheimah lachmahh livnei oreiv asher yiqra'u -- He gives
    the animal its food, before the ravens who cry." (147:9)

    What can go wrong with something that draws us to the Almighty,
    even if it is instinctive? Instincts are inherently about survival,
    self-preservation. As we see in the pesuqim cited in Alei Shur, the
    lion cub and the raven calls out to Hashem to get their food. Rather
    than being motivated by thoughtfulness, frumkeit is the use of
    religion to serve my ends.
    ...

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
mi...@aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 10:20:19PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: One of the [Mahartz Chajes's] proofs is from the Ralbach who opposed
: the re-enactment of Semicha in Safed and stated that even though he
: was a minority since he was not consulted he does not have to go along.

The fact that he had to rule out following the rov to me implies more
what I asserted -- that rov without being in the same room for "nimnu
vegameru" has /some/ weight, but isn't a hard-and-fast rule.

Or, IOW:
: The Mahartz Chajes seems to deny the concept of minority and majority
: outside of a frontal debate we occasionally hold like the minority for a
: great loss or if the minority is greater (eg bet shammai except for other
: reasons). In a Sanhedrin it is clear we follow a straight majority and dont
: take other things into account however, otherwise the minority opinion is
: always acceptable.

Are we not in agreement?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507

 
From: "Prof. Levine"  <llev...@stevens.edu>
5"



>> Moving from the neck to the feet, one sees the tznius  requirement
that a woman must wear stockings (and not "see through  stockings").
However, this is not universally accepted. According to some  poskim if
a woman is wearing an ankle length skirt or dress, then her ankles  and
feet need not be covered. I once asked R. Avigdor Miller if a  woman
had to cover her feet, and he replied, "We are not noheg this  way."
According to this, a woman who wears an ankle length skirt or  dress
could wear sandals without wearing stockings. <<

Yitzchok  Levine

 
>>>>>
 
 
There is no /requirement/ for women to wear ankle-length skirts.   In some 
communities, stockings are not required.  Nothing to do with  skirt length.
 
It doesn't matter what you find in books or teshuvos, I'm telling you  
reality -- whatever they base themselves on, this is what women do:
 
The RW community tends to davka avoid ankle-length skirts, considering them 
 too trendy and too eye-catching.  They wear skirts a little below the  
knee.  They always wear stockings, but the stockings are not necessarily  
non-see-through.  The degree of thickness varies with the community, the  Satmar 
being most stringent: they require not only very thick stockings, but  also 
a seam up the back of the leg, to make it even more obvious that the woman  
is wearing stockings.  In Meah She'arim, it has to be black tights.
 
RZ in Israel and some Lubavitchers and some borderline RW in America  often 
wear ankle-length skirts, but mainly for fashion.  Most MO don't  consider 
stockings to be a halachic requirement and truth to tell, neither do  I.  (I 
could tell you of at least one other RW rav besides R' Avigdor  Miller who 
permitted sandals without stockings, though he didn't necessarily  think it 
was the most preferred or eidel look.)  The only halachic  requirement is 
that you not dress in a manner that your community considers  un-tzniusdik, 
and for this reason alone, a woman has to wear stockings if she is  part of a 
community that considers that normative.  In contrast to the  requirement to 
cover elbows and knees, the requirement to wear stockings is only  a "das 
Yehudis" kind of thing -- community-dependent.
 
In the past ten or twenty years, there has been a kind of fashion  movement 
among certain groups of RZ in Israel who have been influenced by  the 
chareidi community.  Their conscience no longer lets them go  bare-legged, 
because of the way chareidi women and chardal women dress, but they  don't want to 
wear stockings either, so in this group you do see the pattern  you've 
mentioned -- long skirts with sandals, no stockings.  In America  you rarely see 
this at all.  MO don't wear stockings, period.   They don't wear long 
skirts, either.
 
For myself, anywhere I go where women are expected to wear stockings, or  
where what I wear were to affect my children's shidduchim, I wear  stockings. 
 You may wonder what kind of standard is this?   All I  can say is, yesh 
raglayim ladavar....
 

--Toby Katz
================




_____________________





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On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 03:27:33PM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: There is no /requirement/ for women to wear ankle-length skirts.   In some 
: communities, stockings are not required.  Nothing to do with  skirt length.

In a community where ankle-length skirts are the norm, it might be. So,
doesn't this comment depend on knowing the author's intended audience?

In any case, I find this thread interesting... RYL raised the question of
why so much more attention is paid to hilkhos tzeni'us WRT women, and the
thread takes a detour -- to pay attention to hilkhos tzeni'us WRT women!

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is a glorious thing to be indifferent to
mi...@aishdas.org        suffering, but only to one's own suffering.
http://www.aishdas.org                 -Robert Lynd, writer (1879-1949)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Regarding the recent posting question: 
Is it repulsive that on Pesach in one apartment 
the Sephardic Jews are eating rice and in another 
next door the Ashkenazic Jews are not eating Kitnyos?

That was exactly the point of my statement of what one does in privacy as opposed to communal.
Interestingly, Zunz counted up fifteen hundred different authors whose words of prayer were 
used in various communities and at various times.

Just think of the history of prayer books. We have never had one prayer book unchangingly used by 
all congregations everywhere. Rambam in Egypt had his prayer book. Rashi had his prayer book in 
France. Germany had its prayer book and what is more, some of the little communities in Germany
had their special siddurim. Sabato Morais who was born in the city of Leghorn, said that in his native
city there were four congregations and four different siddurim. We should remember "eilu v'eilu..."

ri

sorry to confuse your speculation with the facts but the reason we wear
long skirts is halachic. based on the more machmir opinion of definition
of shok.

am i repeating myself? yes. probably as many times as i state this
(with or without sources) people prefer to make up reasons for this
chumra rather than accept it as a case where those who they feel "less"
than them are more machmir than them.

shavua tov,
menucha (who is seriously wondering whether she should give up......)

> RZ in Israel and some Lubavitchers and some borderline RW in America 
> often wear ankle-length skirts, but mainly for fashion. 

> In the past ten or twenty years, there has been a kind of fashion 
> movement among certain groups of RZ in Israel who have been influenced 
> by the chareidi community.  Their conscience no longer lets them go 
> bare-legged, because of the way chareidi women and chardal women 
> dress, but they don't want to wear stockings either, so in this group 
> you do see the pattern you've mentioned -- long skirts with sandals, 
> no stockings. 

> --Toby Katz

In Avodah V28n98, RCRW replied to RnLL:
>> Minhag goes by makom; not by ancestry. <<
> I would think that would not apply to private stuff.... <
and asked about one's personal t'filos. 
Another two examples of ancestry/family minhag: whether one washes before
or after Qiddush; how many hours one waits after eating fleishig before
eating milchig. 

I still remember a shiur by RMFeldman (I think he gave it before making
aliyah) on eating basukkah on Shmini Atzeres -- he noted one family which
had a tradition contra the BT's "sit [but don't make a b'rachah]"....

As I mentioned privately to a few members of the chevrah, lots more can be
said on the subject, including noting ancestral minhagim which can
temporarily trump minhag hamaqom by establishing their own "maqom" (e.g.
the specially-scheduled minyan I held in the JEC Main Shul prior to my
son's b'ris -- with the permission of the Mara d'Asra, REMT, it featured
Minhag Ashk'naz nusach like a duet between me [the SHaTZ] and the mohel for
the Shiras haYam and immediately-preceding p'suqim)....

Gut Voch/Shavua Tov and all the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

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