Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 117

Wed, 29 Jun 2011

• 1. Jewish History (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: kulanu zadikim?? (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! (Ben Waxman)
• 4. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 5. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: yovel (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 7. Re: yovel (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Ten Tribes (was Yovel) (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: Ten Tribes (was Yovel) (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: kulanu zadikim?? (T6...@aol.com)
• 11. Four-Legged Chicken Sparks Debate over Kosher Status (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! (Micha Berger)
• 13. Minhog Scams (Richard Wolberg)
• 14. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! (Lisa Liel)
• 15. Re: Minhog Scams (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: Rakia, Maaseh Bereishis, Halachah (Lampel)
• 17. Re: Rakia, Maaseh Bereishis, Halachah (Hankman)
• 18. Re: Rakia, Maaseh Bereishis, Halachah (Micha Berger)
• 19. Re: R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader (T6...@aol.com)

Which is also true about the rishonim and the achronim. How many yeshiva
boys know the Chafetz Chaim's name?>>

I am not sure how inportant that is. How many of us know the real names of many
authors like the Taz, Pnei Yehoshua, Sma etc?

However, IMHO it is important to know approximately when they lived
and where (approximately) they lived etc.
I had a rebbe in yeshiva who everytime he quoted an achronim would
tell who was his rebbe.

OTOH I went to a shiur of a rosh kollel from Bnei Brak who didn't
understand that R. Yehuda Halevi and R. Yehuda HaChasid were two
different people.
Many talmidei chachamim get mixed up by the Rashba in Tosafot (Tosfot
Shantz=Rash) who was one of the 300 rabbis who went to Akko from
France and the Rashba from Spain a talmid of the Ramban and Rabbenu
Yona.

-- 
Eli Turkel

On 28/06/2011 8:44 PM, Harvey Benton wrote:
> if we are all tzadikim, then home come all of us do not get to go into olam haba??

Huh?  I assume you're quoting the famous mishneh; if so, you know that
we *do* all get into the Next World, precisely because we are all
tzadikim -- minus a few exceptions.  Those exceptions aren't tzadikim,
therefore they don't get in.  Now what was the question?

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

A couple of days ago on Radio Kol Chai, Rebbetzin Eliyahu spoke about her 
husband, Rav Mordechai Tz"l, on his yartzeit. One of the things that she 
spoke about was all the miracles that he performed, things she only heard 
about he died. One that I remember was that he completely cured a deaf mute 
with a quick prayer. He said the prayer and the boy started talking as if 
had been speaking all his life. And this was one example of a huge number.

I found it hard to believe.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org>
>>> BTW, do you say the same thing about stories about the the Besht and
>>> the Lubavitcher Rabbeim? That given that they're during galus, stories
>>> of miracles are more likely to be metaphoric than historical?
>
>> Open miracles are not non-existent during galus, they're just rare.
>> Tzadikim are not personally in galus...

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> I think that's only bayis rishon. Thus the common girsa is "10
> nissim na'asu la'avoseinu beVHMQ". OTOH, I did find examples of
> nissim during bayis sheini: the ...

It seems that my familiarity with the idiom isn't as thorough as it ought
to be. I don't understand why the phrase "10 nissim na'asu la'avoseinu
beVHMQ" would be presumed to be referring specifically to Bayis Rishon, to
the exclusion of Bayis Sheni. Could you elaborate? Thanks in advance.

Akiva Miller




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On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 10:19:07AM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: It seems that my familiarity with the idiom isn't as thorough as
: it ought to be. I don't understand why the phrase "10 nissim na'asu
: la'avoseinu beVHMQ" would be presumed to be referring specifically to
: Bayis Rishon, to the exclusion of Bayis Sheni. Could you elaborate? Thanks
: in advance.

Every mishnah was composed during bayis sheini or within 150 years
of the churban. (Rebbe was niftar in 188 CE.) The idiom "la'avoseinu"
is like "forefathers" in English, it doesn't likely to refer to more
recent history.

In any case, bayis sheini lacked the aron and the amud ha'anan. It was
after Esther and thus within the era when hester panim dominates. Thus,
the concept of galus overlapping bayis sheini. I think hester panim and
daily public miracles are mutually exclusive concepts.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

R' Eli Turkel wrote:

> Why would one assume that there are any remnants left of the 10
> tribes to bring back? By now they are intermarried over many
> centuries.

What does intermarriage prove? Half of all intermarriages result in Jewish children.

Let's take a population of 100 Jews and 100 non-Jews, all of whom intermarried. So we have 100 families, half of whose children are Jewish, and half are not.

Let's use "N" as the average number of children per family. So in this
first generation of kids who have intermarried parents, there are a total
of 100*N children, of whom 50*N are Jewish, and 50*N are not.

Let's say they all randomly marry each other, either because they consider
themselves to be non-Jewish, or because they don't care. So we now have
50*N couples, and they will have 50*N*N children. Of those children, half
will have a Jewish mother and half will not, so the next generation has
25*N*N Jews, and 25*N*N non-Jews.

Do you see where this is going? Because we presume that each generation has
an equal number of fathers and mothers, and because of the halacha that a
child's religion follows exactly 50% of its parents, in the long run, the
Jewish population will never change. (At least, it won't vary beyond the
statistical limits of probability.)

And so whatever the Jewish population of the world (as a percentage) was at
some point in history, random intermarriages will not change that. Jewish
population might go up as a result of a high birth rate, and it might go
down as a result of persecution. But as long as the intermarriages are done
randomly (which I presume to be the case because they aren't even aware
that they are Jewish), it will not affect the numbers one way or the other.

Granted that these people are totally unaware that they are Jewish. But
I've never heard that that would make a difference. This is an issue of
*identity*, not belief or culture. My understanding has always been similar
to that of R"n Toby Katz, who wrote yesterday:

> I agree that it is highly unlikely that pockets of the Ten Tribes
> are still living somewhere ... but ... Eliyahu Hanavi will be
> able to point to specific Yehudim and say, "You are really from
> the tribe of Ephraim... or Shimon... or Naftali... ben achar ben."

If anyone sees an error in my math (or elsewhere), please correct me.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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Mom Reveals $5 Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors!
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On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 11:55:38AM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: What does intermarriage prove? Half of all intermarriages result in
: Jewish children.

In last year's iteration of the topic I wrote
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol27/v27n005.shtml#04>. RZS critiqued
some of my points, RAF defended them. RZS summarized Rav Aharon
Lichtensteins "Brother Daniel and the Jewish Fraternity" at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol27/v27n008.shtml#04>

Quoting part of RZS's post:
    His case boils down to the gemara on Yevamos 17a about the ten tribes.
    Assuming that Yirmiyahu didn't bring them back, and that they remained
    in the places named in Tanach, where they made up a majority of the
    population, the gemara first says that if a goy from those places
    is mekadesh a Jewish woman she needs a get. This is then rejected,
    for one of two reasons: 1) The women of that generation of the
    10 tribes miraculously became barren, so that they have no Jewish
    descendants; or 2) "They" [presumably the Sanhedrin of the time]
    "made them complete goyim", which the gemara bases on a pasuk in
    Hoshea that says they had goyishe children ("bnei neichar").

    RAL follows the second answer, and seems to assume that this was
    not a gezera but a psak din about anyone whose children are "bnei
    neichar", which he is medayek to mean that they feel like strangers
    to Am Yisrael, and therefore the same applies to anybody who is
    completely alienated from Am Yisrael....

But whether it was a one-time gezeirah or a general rule, the gemara
itself tells us that the 10 shevatim either no longer exist (no Jewish
descendents) or are no longer Jewish.

Which is why I think it makes more sense to focus on whether Binyamin,
Shim'on, Yehudah, and the refugees from the other shevatim who fled to
Yehudah are in their proper lands or not than whether the majority of
Israelites are hidden among other nations and thus in chu"l.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Life isn't about finding yourself
mi...@aishdas.org        Life is about creating yourself.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Bernard Shaw
Fax: (270) 514-1507

At 01:22 AM 6/29/2011, Eli Turkel wrote:
>Even if true why would they be Jewish anymore?.
> >
> > There was a time when some believed that the American Indian was descended
> > from the Ten Tribes.?  See
> >
> > Is the American Indian Descended From the Ten Lost Tribes?
> >
I am sure that it is not true. YL
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On 29/06/2011 1:22 AM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>>
>> There was a time when some believed that the American Indian was descended
>> from the Ten Tribes.

> Even if true why would they be Jewish anymore?.

If they only married among themselves (or with other such tribes) then
they'd still be Jewish, just like the Bene Israel of the Bombay area,
who were kept from intermarrying by the Indian caste system.


-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

 
From: Harvey Benton <harvw...@yahoo.com>
"

if we are  all tzadikim, then how come all of us do not get to go into olam 
 
haba??

 
>>>>>
 
 
 
When we are all together we are tzaddikim as a whole, which is why your  p
rayers are more likely to be heard if you daven together with a tzibbur and 
not  by yourself.
 
 

--Toby Katz
================




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 From http://tinyurl.com/3qvx6cj


Mea Shearim - A four-legged chicken born in a Jerusalem slaughter 
house has started a religious debate regarding its kosher label, 
which can only be determined once it is slaughtered, according to local media.

The twelve-toed chicken awaited its fate in a cage on the floor of 
Yoel Kroish family's slaughter house, waiting for local rabbis to 
decide whether or not the animal was kosher, the Internet news agency 
NTN24 reported.

If the legs are tied together, according to local rabbis, the chicken 
is not kosher. This they said could only be determined by 
slaughtering the animal.

"I don't know, for now we will give it to the rabbis to check if it 
is kosher or not. If it's kosher, we will slaughter it, if not, we 
will see what to do," Kroish said.

However, the chicken may survive if Kroish decides to go ahead with 
his plan and sell the chicken to the highest bidder, media reports said.

See the above URL for a picture of this "rare bird." >:-}

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On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 09:12:43PM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: It's the other way around. People are in galus -- Am Yisrael is in galus -- 
:  and the Shechinah is in galus with us, in sympathy with us you might say, 
: "imo  Anochi vetzarah."  

As Lisa already cited, the Seder Olam says that the four galios are one
after the other, meaning that the latter part of Paras uMaddai and nearly
all of galus Yavan refer to times in which we had a functioning BHMQ.

The kohanim doing avodah in bayis sheini were in galus, and the Shechinah
departed in sympathy?

: "Veshavti es shvus Yakov."

A more precise quote would be Yirmiyahu's reference to "lekhol galus
Yehudah asher beVavel" (29:22), or his opening words "ad gelos Y-m
bachodesh hachamishi" (1:3).

I'm not sure about cause and effect. The tokhachah seems to say that
HQBH would abandon us to miqreh and being subject to natural law would
lead to our exile. Which I would take to mean that galus haShechinah is
the cause, not the sympathetic response.

But in either case, I think that when we speak of "galus" we're referring
more to the metaphysical state of separation from the Almighty than any
of its physical manifestations.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
mi...@aishdas.org        I do, then I understand." - Confucius
http://www.aishdas.org   "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites

> If there were a neis during bayis sheini that lo ira qeri lekohein gadol
> bayom yakippurim, why did they did they need to keep him up all night?

Ein somchin al hanes.

To say "ein somchin al hanes" is like the cat chasing its tail. This is circular reasoning. 
It's like saying the reason you have to stop at a red light is not to have an accident with another vehicle.
So someone asks: If you are driving at 3am and there isn't a single vehicle anywhere in sight, do you have
to stop then when there is no chance whatsoever that you will have an accident. The response is "Yes, you
have to stop." So you ask: "Why?" And the response: "Because it's RED."    

> I didn't think people were in galus. I thought galus was a state the
> Shechinah was in

Wouldn't the state the Shechinah is in to which you refer be the concept of "hester panim?"

At 05:15 PM 6/28/2011, Zev Sero wrote:
>On 28/06/2011 5:46 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>>On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 05:15:05PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>>>                                          Yavan occupied the BHMK and
>>>turned it into a pagan temple.
>
>>For a couple of decades out of the entire galus. Alexander took over
>>from Paras uMadai, and Yavan was in charge until a century or so before
>>the churban.
>
>Since when is Galus Yavan more than the short time they occupied the
>BHMK?  And since when does Galus Madai extend beyond the building of
>Bayis Sheni?

See Seder Olam Rabbah.  I assume R' Yose ben Halafta is of sufficient 
authority?

>On 28/06/2011 5:42 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
>>I believe he meant Paras and Yavan.  You can't say that the 34 years of
>>Paras "bifnei habayit" weren't bifnei habayit.
>
>They weren't galus.
>
>>And the mikdash was there during Galut Yavan, which lasted beyond the
>>cleansing by the Chashmonaim.
>
>Since when?  Who told you such a thing?

A Tanna by the name of R' Yose ben Halafta.  You should read his stuff.

Lisa  

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 07:53:47AM -0400, Richard Wolberg wrote:
:> I didn't think people were in galus. I thought galus was a state the
:> Shechinah was in

: Wouldn't the state the Shechinah is in to which you refer be the
: concept of "hester panim?"

Isn't being elsewhere (galus) and effective way to hide (hesteir)? Who
said they're distinct concepts?

In any case, hester panim could be a moment within a larger story, eg
in Shofetim when HQBH would let one of the Kenaani nations have the upper
hand for a while. Maybe the definition of "galus" that I'm fishing for
is "longterm hesteir panim".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
mi...@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Tue, 28 Jun 2011 17:37:13 -0400 From: Micha Berger
>> >  if your reshus would be directly under a
>> >  star, would you own it?
> No star is stationary over one point on the earth.
> <http://www.fourmilab.ch/yoursky>
You're right; I missed the "stationary" requirement. There's also the 
Gemora Pesachim 94a that says the entire yishuv is located under one 
star, which would, if we include that as "ad harakia"  make it owned by 
all, and thus nobody. But this is all over my head, so to speak.

BTW, it was smart and altruistic, despite what I'm sure was painful for 
you, to spell "raqia" as you did in the subject line, I'm guessing for 
archive purposes. Y'yashar kochacha!

And thanks for that valuable link!

On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 02:03:54PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> Well, first there's a question of whether it's ad v'ad bichlal or ad  
> v'lo ad bichlal.  And then there's the nafka mina question.  Zeh neheneh 
> v'zeh lo chaser.  How are you affected by a satellite being in your 
> reshut even if it is?

Salvage rights?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha


also 

> On 6/28/2011 3:53 PM,From: Micha Berger<mi...@aishdas.org>
>
> ...Reshus hayachid olah ad laraqia (Shabbos 52b, Eiruvin 7a).
>
> So, whether or not that sattelite is on my reshus would depend on whether
> ad laraqia is the top of the clouds, or ad infinitum. (Unless the universe
> is finite, in which case...)
>
RZL reponded:
The Rambam also says that the Torah uses the words rakia (cloud region) 
and shamayim (celestial region) interchangeably, using each one for the 
other. So, another nafka meena: if your reshus would be directly under a 
star, would you own it?

RMB responded:
No star is stationary over one point on the earth.
<http://www.fourmilab.ch/yoursky>

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha


CM notes to all the above:

Given that certainly a star whose distance is many (maaaaany) light years
away and even a satellite is certainly not in a chatzer hamishtameres nor
the owner betzidoh.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster


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On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 10:29:53AM -0400, Hankman wrote:
: Given that certainly a star whose distance is many (maaaaany)
: light years away and even a satellite is certainly not in a chatzer
: hamishtameres nor the owner betzidoh.

How do you know if my yard is mishtemeres of if I am betzidahh? Are you
arguing these are requirements for the cheftzah, not (as the idiom seems
to indicate) the chatzeir?

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 09:51:30AM -0400, Lampel wrote:
> You're right; I missed the "stationary" requirement. There's also the
> Gemora Pesachim 94a that says the entire yishuv is located under one
> star, which would, if we include that as "ad harakia"  make it owned by
> all, and thus nobody. But this is all over my head, so to speak.

an oddity... The star is a sphere, so "under one star" could refer to as
much as half the universe. I think the gemara is just acknowledging that
stars are bigger than planets, or at least the settled part of this one.

But because of that sphere thing, "above my chatzer" refers to a wedge
(I don't know the word for the 3D equivalent of a wedge) that gets larger
and larger with altitude.

Below a point on the moon or a particular star is similarly a wedge that
gets larger and larger as you get further away from the moon.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The thought of happiness that comes from outside
mi...@aishdas.org        the person, brings him sadness. But realizing
http://www.aishdas.org   the value of one's will and the freedom brought
Fax: (270) 514-1507      by uplifting its, brings great joy. - R' Kook

 

In a message dated 6/29/2011 8:01:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
llev...@stevens.edu writes:

Please  see  http://vbm-torah.org/archive/modern/11modern.htm




>>>>>
 
completely anachronistic to call him "modern Orthodox"
 
he was Orthodox, a Torah Jew -- his enemy was Reform, not chareidim  
(another term that would be anachronistic if applied to 19th century Torah  Jews)
 
He is the father and exemplar of all modern Torah-observant Jews,  MO and 
chareidi, if by "modern" you mean currently alive.

--Toby Katz
================






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