Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 121

Thu, 30 Jun 2011

• 1. swimming lessons (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 2. R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 3. conformity vs emes (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 4. Re: conformity vs emes (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Baruch sheamar (D&E-H Bannett)
• 6. Re: Ten Tribes (was Yovel) (T6...@aol.com)
• 7. R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Re: Four-Legged Chicken Sparks Debate over Kosher Status (Akiva Blum)
• 9. Re: swimming lessons (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: swimming lessons (Goldmeier Family)
• 11. Re: R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: yovel (Micha Berger)
• 13. R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader (Prof. Levine)

http://matzav.com/rav-shteinman-advis
es-mechanchim-not-to-take-talmidim-to-bodies-of-water-due-to-sakanah

does anyone know maran 's explanation of the gmara requiring fathers to 
teach swimming to their children?

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>>> If it is assur to join apiqursim even on community-survival
matters, the founding of the state doesn't make it mutar.

------in which case the meikilim may have it backwards---RSRH might 
actually hold  extreme anti-zionism, a la NK is more proper-----  no 
taking their money,stamps, power.....   one can't be an Ausritt-nik while 
enjoying  the forbidden fruit.....


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in re a discussion with some about how RSRH  would opine today,  may it be 
asked if there is  in  O judaism , or in certain communities, a preference 
for conformity over emes?

ie if  rav X     feels that  Y  is a correct  practice/value/machshava   , 
is it better to suppress that opinion for the sake of unanimity.  i think 
there is some evidence that in certain communities, opinion especially on 
modern day practice , has  changed----when there was uproar  over a 
'minority' opinion. is this to be seen as due the   value  of -conformity- 
as  a supreme value--- exceeding even emes at times?


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On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 11:30:03AM -0700, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: in re a discussion with some about how RSRH  would opine today,  may it be 
: asked if there is  in  O judaism , or in certain communities, a preference 
: for conformity over emes?

I think it's survival over nuance. Conformity is a derived value, being
a consequence of survival strategy.

And they aren't neglecting what they believe to be emes. They are
narrowing eilu va'eilu to exclude positions they disagree with that
others (including you and I) might believe to be emes.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When one truly looks at everyone's good side,
mi...@aishdas.org        others come to love him very naturally, and
http://www.aishdas.org   he does not need even a speck of flattery.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabbi AY Kook

Re my question on version of barukh she'amar on the pitka, 
RMB wrote <<The Rambam is a daas yachid in believing that 
there are no machloqesin
in halakhos leMoshe miSinai. (And the Rambam requires dochaq 
teirutzim to
fit the data.) If machloqesin could emerge in HlMmS, why not 
divergent
drift in traditions about the original content of the 
peteq>>

While I agree that changes in nusach can occur, methinks 
that RMB is playing the role of the tam.  He knows me and my 
style and cannot think I was being serious or that I believe 
in the pitka story.  I'm happy that my e-mail rated a 
comment but would have been happier if the reply was that 
there were  a multitude of pikaot and nuschaot and each one 
fell in the place where it was decided above that it was the 
appropriate place for that nusach.


David 

From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
i

>> The  gemara asks what about the descendents
of the daughters of the 10  shevatim?

Answer 1: There is a mesorah that they went  sterile....

Answer 2, given by R' Yehudah besheim Shemu'el: Chakhamim at  the time
declared them non-Jews....

....But in any case, chazal know  as from a pasuq that they are non-Jews. 
There
is no hidden identity here to  be revealed.



-- 
Micha  Berger              
mi...@aishdas.org       





>>>>
 
There is a mesorah that [some?  many? most?] converts to  Judaism are 
people who were really already part of the Jewish people, they  just didn't know 
it. Their neshamos want to be Jewish.  Someone  could be Jewish by 
matrilineal descent going back centuries and not be aware of  it.  They could even go 
all the way back to the Ten Tribes, theoretically,  or they could be 
descendants of forced xian converts from the Spanish  Inquisition or from any one 
of many countries in many centuries.
 
 

--Toby Katz
================







_____________________  




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At 03:40 PM 6/30/2011, R. Micha  wrote:
>From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
>To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org
>Subject: Re: [Avodah] R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader
>Message-ID: <20110630102136.GA21...@aishdas.org>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 05:24:48AM +0300, Ben Waxman wrote:
>: From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
>:>   1--R Hirsch  would clearly not be comfortable in a  DL/RZ  setting
>
>: Yes, Rav Hirsch opposed a movement back to Zion, but that does not
>: mean that he would feel the same after the Shoah, and when the medina
>: is a reality.
>
>This is empty speculation, but then so is opining about tzadiq vera lo...

I do not think that it is a stretch of the 
imagination to think that RSRH's views on Zionism 
and the State of Israel after the Holocaust would 
be similar to those of Rav Dr. Joseph Breuer and Rav Shimon Schwab.

Below are some thoughts regarding the founding of 
the Jewish State from A Unique Perspective: The 
Essays of Rav Dr. Joseph Breuer.

Page 358

Anyone who is imbued with the eternal truth and validity of
God?s Torah will have to be aware that a state on God?s holy soil
will only be able to endure if the conditions that God has set down
for a Jewish state on His holy soil are met. These conditions apply
to the Jewish entity and to the life of every individual who declares
himself a member of God?s People.

Every word in our Torah is ironclad testimony to these facts.

Page 359

We have expressed it repeatedly in all clarity and intensity: This
state will have a future only if, and as long as, it is organized as a
Jewish state, i.e., a state of God, rising on sacred soil. It will be a
state of God if it proclaims the Torah as the fundamental law of its
constitution and propagates its practical realization in the life of our
people.

Page 365

There must live in us this unshakeable conviction: This State
will last only if it will rise as God?s State on God-holy soil. This
alone will prevent it from suffering the fate of the previous Jewish
States. Will this State live up to this condition? It is still a question,
a source of terrible worry. We wished it were no longer a question!
As certain as it is that this State, the mere fact of its formation,
does not mean that the Ge?ulah has arrived, just as potent is its
ability ?as perhaps never before in our Galus-history?to hasten
the coming of the Ge?ulah. What a tragedy if this State, either by
delusion or folly, were to prolong the Galus and provoke new and
terrible catastrophes! May Hashem prevent this from happening.

Furthermore,  below are some selections from Rav 
Dr. Joseph Breuer's essay Israel ? A Challenge 
that appeared in the Mitteilungen, Vol. 24, 
December 1962/January 1963 and is reproduced in A 
Unique Perspective: The Essays of Rav Breuer, 1914 -1973.

A trip to Israel has become routine in our time. The amazing
technological progress in the speed of air travel has helped in the
enormous rise of volume of travelers bound for Israel. The Holy
Land has become a focal attraction for the Diaspora. We would
rather not analyze whether it is longing for the ancestral land which
motivates the travelers? plan ? a longing which all but consumed
the heart of a Yehudah Halevi. Undoubtedly, the existence of a
Jewish state in the Holy Land, recognized by a majority of the
world?s nations, draws many thousands into its orbit, who then
return home warmed by the glow of the numerous achievements
which the State has accomplished in the brief period of its existence.

As for us Torah-true Jews, we must be permeated by the following
thoughts:

 From the beginning the Jewish people was assured possession
of Eretz Yisrael only as God?s nation. Every page of the Torah
proclaims this irrevocable truth. To deny it would mean a denial of
God?s Torah itself. Only he who no longer recognizes the truth of
the Divine creative pronouncement of ?I shall take you as My
people? ?with which God called our people into existence?will
fail to grasp the absolute interdependence between the ?I shall
bring you to the Land? (Shemos 6:8) and the emergence of the
Jewish people as God?s nation. The disruption of the sole tie that
bound this nation to its land inevitably sealed the fate of nation and
land.

Similarly, the future of this land is intimately and forever tied to
the future of this nation. Redemption of the Jewish people also
means redemption of the Jewish land. Thus, a true ingathering of
our people into its land is not possible without our return to God
and His life-shaping proximity. For the Land, too, longs for the
return of God?s Shechinah.

<snip>

For God guided His people, which His creative Will awakened
to life and which can exist only through Him, and implanted it ?in
the Mountain of His heritage, in the site of His presence on earth,
in the Sanctuary founded by God?s hands? (Shemos 15:17). Through
God?s nation the Divinely sanctified soil was to be transformed into
one singular Mount of Sanctity, looming high above a humanity
estranged from God, as a symbol of the Divine claim of inheritance
to His realm of earth and mankind. Who can then measure the
gloom of the Prophet?s mourning (Yirmeyahu 2:7): ?. . . but you
came and desecrated My land and turned My heritage into abomination?!

Have we who tread upon the soil of our homeland still an ear
for this stirring plaint? Do we feel shame for our brethren who
respond with derisive laughter to this heart-rending pain; who feel
no compunction to demonstrate to a world, which is familiar with
the Book of the Prophets, how the very descendants of this people
ridicule their own leaders?

<snip>

Let us face it: The Jewish State in its present form is far from
being a State of God. This realization is the basis for the desperate
struggle of Torah Jewry in Israel for the salvation of Torah in Israel.
Are not the establishment of the State and the resurrection of the
land from the decay of millennia Divine challenges to our people?
Are you ready for your ultimate redemption? That is why every
truly Jewish man or woman must tremble for the future of the State,
for the future of our land.

Yet we need not tremble for the future of God?s Torah. Our
anxiety is directed to our people and its God-willed destiny. Despite
the fateful significance of the tasks confronting Torah-true
Jewry in the Holy Land, it would be of even greater fateful consequence
were we to underestimate the importance of strengthening
Torah-true Jewry in the Golah.

We applaud him who chooses to make his permanent domicile
in Israel, in order to support and strengthen the cause of Torah in
the Holy Land. However, in view of the regrettable state of affairs,
a visitor to Israel will be burdened by the experiences which may
be expected in the Golah but which are unbearable in the Holy
Land.

See  Rav Shimon Schwab's article Zion or Zionism 
that appears in Selected Writings for his views 
on Zionism and the State of Israel. It may be read at

http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/zion_or_zionism.pdf



Yitzchok Levine 
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org [mailto:avodah-
> boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Zev Sero
> Sent: Wednesday 29 June 2011 7:54 PM
> To: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] Four-Legged Chicken Sparks Debate over Kosher Status
> 
> 
> 
> > kosher label, which can only be determined once it is slaughtered,
> > [...]
> > If the legs are tied together, according to local rabbis, the chicken
> > is not kosher. This they said could only be determined by slaughtering
> > the animal.
> 
> What does this mean?  Tied together with what?  String?
> 
> Perhaps someone can explain what is the shayla here.  I thought it was
> black letter law that "kol yeter kenatul dami", and therefore this
> chicken should be clearly treif.  What is the sevara to rule it kosher,
> and what has it got to do with the legs being "tied together", whatever
> that is supposed to mean?
> 

The Ramban holds Kenatul domi means that the entire extra limb is removed
including its connecting base. Therefore, if the result after removing the
extra legs leaves a treifa, the bird is already now a treifa. Rashi holds
that both the extra limb plus the original limb are removed. However, even
Rashi agrees that the limb needs to be complete, not just an extra piece of
meat. See Taz and Shach Y.D. 41:10. The only way to know what these extra
legs are is by opening up the bird.
Having seen the video, it certainly looks as if these are real legs. They
move, and the toes open and close, though when walking, the chicken stands
only on its front legs.

Akiva

On 30/06/2011 2:23 PM, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
>
> http://matzav.com/rav-shtei
> nman-advises-mechanchim-not-to-take-talmidim-to-bodies-of-water-due-to
> -sakanah
> does anyone know maran 's explanation of the gmara requiring fathers to teach swimming to their children?

I do know that it's the only item in that list that's not brought down
lehalacha.


-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

I am sure that in a situation of specific sakana caused by the swimming 
itself, the sakana would take precedence over the precept of teaching 
swimming.

Kol tuv
Rafi Goldmeier

---------


On 30/6/2011 9:23 PM, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
>
> http://matzav.com/rav-shtei
> nman-advises-mechanchim-not-to-take-talmidim-to-bodies-of-water-due-to
> -sakanah
> does anyone know maran 's explanation of the gmara requiring fathers 
> to teach swimming to their children?
>
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On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 04:06:22PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
>> This is empty speculation, but then so is opining about tzadiq vera lo...

> I do not think that it is a stretch of the imagination to think that 
> RSRH's views on Zionism and the State of Israel after the Holocaust would 
> be similar to those of Rav Dr. Joseph Breuer and Rav Shimon Schwab.

But it's still imagination. I was just saying that there is nothing in
what he actually did say that ceased being true once that battle was
lost.

Unlike the thrust of most of the Lithuanian opposition. And in fact,
Agudah went from anti-Zionism to a-Zionism.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 07:22:46PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
:> If we ask, in purely descriptive terms, whether anyone born of
:> Jewish parents is a Jew, the answer must be yes. As an epithet, the
:> terms "Jew" remains applicabe to any individual who was ever endowed
:> with Jewish status - even to a meshumad. Hence, he is obligated to
:> pursue a Torah life, and should he decide to return, he would
:> perhaps require no new conversion.(38) However, if we ask whether a
:> meshumad has anything of a Jewish personality and character, and
:> whether therefore, he continues to be endowed with the personal
:> status of a Jew, the answer is a ringing no. He remains a Jew
:> without Jewishness. What he retain is simply the descriptive
:> epithet: shem Yisrael. Of kedushat Yisrael, however - of the
:> sacredness of the Jewish personality, that which essentially
:> constitutes being a Jew - he is bereft. And let us remember that
:> kedushat Yisrael is not simply a psychological condition or even a
:> legal status. It is also a metaphysical state. Of this, the meshumad
:> is divested completely. As he has renounced Jewry, so Jewishness is
:> divorced from him.
:>...
:> Footnote 38: The first point, that the obligation remains, is
:> certain. The second, that reentry would not necessitate gerut, is
:> open to question. One might argue that even for one who is endowed
:> with shem Yisrael, the recovery of kedushat Yisrael requires full
:> gerut. It may also be contended that gerut would not be required,
:> but only because the return to the fold would retroactively cancel
:> the earlier renunciation.

: To me this sounds like a contradiction. Clearly, RAL is trying to
: describe a very subtle point, but I am lost on it. I hope someone can
: explain it to me.

You see a contradiction in the words of someone whose mesorah runs
through Brisk. Obviously, look for a chiluq that involves tzvei dinim.
Here is how I read the quotes from RAL:

There is the din of bein a ben beris, and a seperate din of qedushas
Yisrael. Individual qedushah and collective qedushah.

The 25th generation descendent of Morranos may remain a ben beris, a
"Jew" as RAL puts it, but he lacks the "qedushas Yisrael" of being part
of the tzibbur.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
mi...@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

At 03:40 PM 6/30/2011, R. Micha wrote:

>On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 07:26:39AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> > In fairness, I am sure that RSRH would be comfortable with someone like
> > Rabbi Yaakov Yosef Reinman, co-author of One People, Two Worlds: A Reform
> > rabbi and an Orthodox rabbi explore the issues that divide them, who
> > resides in Lakewood.
>
>You think that the leading proponent of Austritt would be comfortable with
>someone who coauthored a book with a Reform rabbi? I very much don't.
I said someone like Rabbi Reinman, not necessarily Rabbi Reinman.  I 
was referring to someone who has the comprehensive Torah and secular 
knowledge that Rabbi Reinman has. My evaluation of him is based on 
his writings.

The following is from 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosef_Reinman#Book_collaboration

In 2000 a literary agent introduced Rabbi Reinman to Rabbi Ammiel 
Hirsch, a <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism>Reform rabbi 
and executive director of the Association of Reform Zionists of 
America (ARZA), with the idea of collaborating on a book airing the 
Orthodox and Reform viewpoints on various issues. Their 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email>email correspondence over the 
next 18 months resulted in the book One People, Two Worlds: A Reform 
rabbi and an Orthodox rabbi explore the issues that divide them. The 
book was hailed by the religious left as a breakthrough in Orthodox 
recognition of religious pluralism, while generating criticism in 
Orthodox circles for Reinman's willingness to conduct an official 
rabbinic dialogue with Reform.  The book was denounced by the 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moetzes_Gedolei_HaTorah>Moetzes Gedolei 
HaTorah of 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agudath_Israel_of_America>Agudath 
Israel of America  and the heads of 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beth_Medrash_Govoha>Beth Medrash 
Govoha, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakewood,_New_Jersey>Lakewood, 
New Jersey, where Reinman received his rabbinic ordination.  Reinman 
subsequently pulled out of a 14-city promotional tour after two 
appearances, leaving Hirsch to continue the tour on his own.

See http://www.jlaw.com/Commentary/dontjudge.html  Don't Judge a Book 
by its Cover by R. Reinman.  There R. Reinman writes

So why did I co-write the book when I knew that our revered sages 
disapproved of sharing platforms with Reform rabbis? Was I breaking 
away and setting out in a new direction? Heaven forbid.

There is a deep sense of desperation in the Orthodox community at the 
disintegration of the non-Orthodox world. There is a feeling that 
time is running out and something must be done. The rabbis who 
authorized and supported this project decided, based on several fine 
distinctions, that it was an exception to the rule. To mention just 
one of these distinctions, since I am an independent scholar and 
writer rather than a member of the rabbinate, my participation was 
considered "individual" rather than "official" contact; I mention 
this distinction in the book several times. We felt we could thus 
circumvent the rabbinate and speak directly to the people.

We were wrong. The media completely ignored my explicit distinctions 
and depicted the exchange as a breakthrough, a breach in the Orthodox 
wall of rejection, which it was never meant to be. Most did not even 
bother to read the book. They just looked at the cover and, to my 
horror, painted me as the Rosa Parks of interdenominational dialogue. 
I have yet to see one serious, in-depth review of the book.

The declaration of the Council of Sages simply reaffirmed what we 
already knew - that the distinctions had failed to register with all 
those people eager to portray the book in a light that suited them 
better. Under these circumstances, the tour would just compound the error.

What could I say? They were right. And so, I withdrew.

Yitzchok Levine 
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