Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 185

Wed, 14 Sep 2011

• 1. Re: patterns??? (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: is hachana worth it?? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Reverting vs. Converting ? The Halachic Basis For Returning To Lost Minhogim (Prof. Levine)
• 4. patterns?? (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 5. Re: ancient Ashkenazi Hebrew (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 6. Re: Reverting vs. Converting ? The Halachic Basis For Returning To Lost Minhogim (Micha Berger)
• 7. dropping tzistzis after Shema (shalomy...@comcast.net)
• 8. (no subject) (Harvey Benton)
• 9. Re: dropping tzistzis after Shema (Rich, Joel)
• 10. Re: (no subject) (Zev Sero)
• 11. maaseh satan and the zionists (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 12. kol yisrael yesh..... (beis/lamed) (Harvey Benton)
• 13. heard re: negotiations on shabbas (Harvey Benton)
• 14. maarit ayin at birchas levana... (Harvey Benton)
• 15. Re: heard re: negotiations on shabbas (Gershon Dubin)
• 16. Re: heard re: negotiations on shabbas (Joshua Meisner)
• 17. Re: maarit ayin at birchas levana... (Joshua Meisner)
• 18. Re: maarit ayin at birchas levana... (Zev Sero)
• 19. avoda//Re: maarit ayin at birchas levana... (Harvey Benton)
• 20. Re: ancient Ashkenazi Hebrew (S.)
• 21. Re: heard re: negotiations on shabbas (Zev Sero)
• 22. Re: kol yisrael yesh..... (beis/lamed) (Poppers, Michael)
• 23. Subject: dropping tzistzis after Shema (Allen Gerstl)
• 24. Re: dropping tzistzis after Shema (Micha Berger)
• 25. Sim shalom-Shalom Rav (Gershon Dubin)
• 26. ants (Eli Turkel)
• 27. Re: Sim shalom-Shalom Rav (Lisa Liel)
• 28. Re: Sim shalom-Shalom Rav (Zev Sero)
• 29. who came first? (Harvey Benton)
• 30. Re: Sim shalom-Shalom Rav (Micha Berger)

On Fri, Sep 09, 2011 at 03:01:05AM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: My response is that, as you wrote, *WE* know the damage that is done
: by playing favorites. But it seems that Yaakov Avinu truly did not
: understand this. We have learned and benefited from his mistakes.

Which I find difficult.

Yitzchaq had a favorite she'einah teluyah bedavar; Rivqah also had a
favorites, with more cause. Yaaqov saw how well that turned out.

Now it is quite common for someone to repeat all the scripts they
learned as children, and make many of the parenting mistakes their
younger selves were so sure they would be smart enough to avoid.

But Yaaqov, and moreso Yaaqov-the-biblical-archetype, was not quite
common. How did he repeat that error?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
mi...@aishdas.org        heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org   Love is not two who look at each other,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      It is two who look in the same direction.

On Fri, Sep 09, 2011 at 01:25:35PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: 3 hours before davening.....

They spent three hours: 1 hour prep before davening, 1 hour davening,
1 hour after.

Before you are overwhelmed by that prep time... Yamim Noraim are
coming. Many shuls spend at least one hour in pre-Amidah davening on Yom
Kippur. Doing this three times a day is amazing, but not incomprehensibly
so. The other two elements -- saying Shemoneh Esrei for an hour without
their minds drifting and requiring an hour to get their minds back into
the regular world -- I find far harder to imagine.

R' Aryeh Kaplan notes that with today's nusachos, spending an hour on
Shemoneh Esrei comes to something like 7 sec per word. Trying to just
say birkhas Avos (for which kavanah is most required) at that pace is
more like meditation than anything we usually do for davening.

: was this hachana better than learning (midoraisa vs. midora-
: bonnan??)

I think there is one of two possible misconceptions here:

Saying that talmud Torah (or tzitzis or yishuv Eretz Yisrael or bikurim)
is keneged kulam doesn't mean it's the best way to spend every hour. That
would be like making a meal of steak without drinks, side dishes, spices /
gravy, etc...

Second, there is no one Jewish ideal. We aren't all supposed to have the
same priorities. These were Chassidim haRishonim, they pursued the ideal
of chassidus. Chokhmah is a different ideal.

See my blog entry
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2007/10/anger-and-the-golden-mean.shtml>
where I discuss the contrast the Rambam makes in Hilkhos Dei'os between
the chokham (who always pursues the middle among middos) and the chassid
(who at times goes beyond).

And in my earlier post at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol27/v27n122.shtml#04>, I noted the
Rambam's possible maqor, Shabbos 125a:
    A beraisa was repeated before Rava bar Rav Huna: Someone who kills
    snakes or scorpions on Shabbos, the spirit of chasidim are not
    content with him. He said to him: And those chasidim, the spirit of
    chakhamim are not content with them.

About which I conjectured:
> This in turn might be related to the Chassidim haRishonim and their
> initial refusal to fight with the Makabiim on Shabbos (Makkabiim I 2:39),
> although they did later join (v. 43).
...
> ...           [T]he defining feature of a Chassid wasn't only his
> davening 9 hours a day, or his shemiras Shabbos. It was also his concern
> for others, "The early Chassidim would hide their thorns and broken
> pieces of glass in the middle of their fields 3 tefachim [roughly one
> foot] deep, so that it would not [even] stop the plowing." (BQ 30a)

> It appears the Chassidim haRishonim and the Rambam Hil Dei'os were
> describing the same ideal.

There is also the possibility that the preparation and ramp-down time
/was/ spent learning, although that doesn't fit Berakhos 39b (to which
RZS already referred) very well. "But once they rest for nine hours
per day in prayer, their Torah, how was it preserved, and their work,
how was it done?"

The gemara answers, "Only, since they were chassidim, their Torah was
guarded and their work blessed." Notice this isn't necessarily phrased
as through Hashem aided their Torah study. It could well mean that since
they were chassidim, they cherished every word, and that motivated them
in a way that more got through in less time.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A sick person never rejects a healing procedure
mi...@aishdas.org        as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what
http://www.aishdas.org   other people think when dealing with spiritual
Fax: (270) 514-1507      matters?              - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Please see http://tinyurl.com/3shyxce

YL

>>>My response is that, as you wrote, *WE* know the damage that is done by 
playing favorites. But it seems that Yaakov Avinu truly did not understand 
this. We have learned and benefited from his mistakes.


--------  is this the same as saying  noge'ah badavar?   i could see two 
ways of looking at it.  any rational person [today]  would say 'of course 
the brothers will be  jealous'.  so was the issue  he is noge'ah badavar, 
or  no-in fact  he analyzed the situation , allowing for his relationship 
as father,  and felt his  sons are on too high a level to have petty 
jealousies, and  therefore  favoritism is apparent , yet benign?
did he under estimate his negiah, or overestimate his  boys?

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    In responding to a comment about the pronunciation of ayin by Ashkenazim, "S." wrote

> . . . we see that (some?) Ashkenazim had a problem with two pasachs
in the beginning of a word, second letter ayin, hence "mayriv," 
"tayna,"
and so forth. Interestingly, the other thing Ashkenazim do is remove
one altogether when it's an aleph, hence "bal" instead of "ba'al" and 
so
forth. Following this pattern, Ya'akov should have became "Yaykov" (or,
really, "Yaykev). Say it out loud. I daresay "Yaykev" doesn't work as 
well
as "mayriv." It's not so difficult to see how it changed into something
sounding more like "Yankev" for ease of pronunciation. Unfortunately I
do not know the proper linguistic terminology, but I'm fairly certain
the difference between yud-ayin with two pasachs and other consonants
followed by an ayin can be explained in a reasonable way. So it is at
least possible that "Yankev" has nothing to do with a faintly preserved
ayin per se, and is just the exact same thing as "mayriv" only adjusted
for pronunciation. Of course since there is apparently a difference
between what Ashkenazim did with letters in such a pattern, between
an aleph and an ayin, perhaps *that* - "mayriv - is the residue of a
vocalized ayin.<

     I believe S. has confused Yiddishisms with Hebrew pronunciation. 
     Ashkenazim, as far as I am aware, have no problem pronouncing
     consecutive patachs at the beginning of a word.  The use of "mairiv"
     and "taina" is the Yiddish pronunciation of the Hebrew words "ma'ariv"
     and "ta'ana," just as, e.g., "cholem" is not a mispronunciation of
     "chalom," "yontef" is not a mispronunciation of "yom tov' (and,
     parenthetically, therefore "gut yontef" is not a redundancy, though
     "gut yom tov" would be), "balebus" is not a mispronunciation of "ba'al
     habayis), etc. The proof is obvious: the same person who will say
     "It's time for mairiv" will, a minute later, have no problem saying
     "hama'ariv aravim."  Indeed, I have never heard anyone say "hamairiv
     aravim" in his davening, nor does anyone say "bal g'vuros" rather than
     "ba'al g'vuros," even though that same person will talk about the "bal
     tfila."  Yiddish incorporated many Hebrew words within itself, but
     changed their pronunciations, just 
 as it changed grammatiical construction, as in the plural of "bar-mitzva"
 (bar-mitzvas, not b'nei mitzva) or the female counterpart of "balebus"
 (balebusta, not ba'alas bayis, or even balas bayis). It is also why "bal
 koyre" and "bal toikeya" are not incorrect; they are the proper Yiddish
 terms fro those who leien and blow shofar, respectively.

     As for the "n" sound in "Yankev," that it is an attempt to pronounce
     ayin can be seen from the halacha that if a Ya'akov is called Yankel,
     the name is written in a get without a nun

     BTW, since when is "ba'al" spelled with an aleph?

EMT.


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On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 07:38:20AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Please see http://tinyurl.com/3shyxce

His source, though, it IM OC 2:24. Which is a teshuvah to someone whose
family davens Nusach "Sfard" and he got used to Nusach Ashkenaz, and now
wants to know if he has to switch back to the family's minhag. There RMF
writes that no, he doesn't, because his family was certainly davening
Ashkenaz first, before they became Chassidim. It's a heter, bedi'eved,
not to switch back to one's minhag after one left. It is not discussing
a *decision* to revert to the earlier minhag lekhat-chilah.

I therefore disagree when he writes (transliterations mine):
> It seems, NLAD, that this teshuvah has broader implications than just
> the narrow case of nusach hatefilloh addressed. Likh'orah the same
> principle should apply in general to cases of going back back to minhogim
> that were somehow lost over time, particularly, if an acceptable basis
> for departures from them is unclear, as in this case.

> So, for example, let's say a congregation wants to go back to the
> old minhog that only one person says kaddish at a time? Seems to be
> countenanced, based on this teshuvoh. If it wants to go back to singing
> LeDovid Boruch on Motzaei Shabbos? Ditto. To having the chazan say a
> special, long, melodious Barekhu at certain special times? Ditto.

It might be justifiable. For all I know, RMF might hold it is. But not
on the basis of the teshuvah cited.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Rescue me from the desire to win every
mi...@aishdas.org        argument and to always be right.
http://www.aishdas.org              - Rav Nassan of Breslav
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   Likutei Tefilos 94:964

Does anyone know why after Shema in the morning we let go of our tzistizs davka between "l'ad" and "ul'olimay olamim"? 
Why specifically there? 

Thanks, 

Steve 
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why would only doctors need special "permission" to heal
versus say any other profession (eg to teach, mend shoes, 

help poor, etc??)
Rishonim debate the status of medicine and doctors 
according to Judaism with Rambam an enthusiastic proponent and other 
voices differing.  The gemara (Bava Kama 65b) derives from a scriptural verse that ?the doctor has permission to 
heal.?  The need for such a derivation indicates some ambivalence about a doctor?s functioning.  What religious problem motivated the gemarra......
?
??
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________________________________


Does anyone know why after Shema in the morning we let go of our tzistizs davka between "l'ad" and "ul'olimay olamim"?
Why specifically there?

Thanks,

Steve
 ===========================================
While we're at it does anyone know why the Artscroll siddur moved the chazzan's out loud part  from ldor vador to al avoteinu?
KT
Joel Rich
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On 13/09/2011 5:08 PM, Harvey Benton wrote:
> why would only doctors need special "permission" to heal
> versus say any other profession (eg to teach, mend shoes,
> help poor, etc??)

Without such permission they'd have no right to hurt people and spill
their blood in order to heal them.  Also, without such permission we
might well think that it's wrong to interfere with Hashem's plans; if
Hashem wants someone to be sick, who are we to heal them?  "Verapo
yerape" shows that Hashem wants us to do whatever we can; if He wants
the person not to be healed, none of our efforts will help anyway.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2011/09/g-d-does-miracles-even-
for-irreligious.html 



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kol yis rael yesh lahem chelek l'olam haba??
why not "b" olam haba?
{similar question to lech l'shalom vs. lech B' shalom??}

mecz
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hear from someone that shidduch financial arrangements (in details) are allowed on 
shabbas? 
is this true? if so why? (and why not for other "mitzvot" like building a house (hachnasas
orchim), or lulav etrog (midoraisa) or tefilling/mezuzos, etc?
also.....
why is selling aliyas, petichat haaron (yom kipuur rosh hashanna,etc) ok??
(tzarchei tzibur (unless going to the rabbi (in particular) v. 

mecz
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why would we care (or not care) that people driving (walking by) at time of birchas levana
might think we are worshipping, (or blessing the moon) as it may be???

mecz
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Yes;  across the board, although I'd be surprised to hear that most people
buy a house in order to do hachnasas orchim.  However, buying a house in
Eretz Yisrael is specifically permitted, as are shidduch negotiations and
tzorchei tzibur.  The others, by extension.  Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Harvey Benton <harvw...@yahoo.com>
To: avodah aishdas <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: [Avodah] heard re: negotiations on shabbas
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 13:10:04 -0700 (PDT)


hear from someone that shidduch financial arrangements (in details) are
allowed on shabbas? is this true? if so why? (and why not for other
"mitzvot" like building a house (hachnasasorchim), or lulav etrog
(midoraisa) or tefilling/mezuzos, etc?also.....why is selling aliyas,
petichat haaron (yom kipuur rosh hashanna,etc) ok??(tzarchei tzibur (unless
going to the rabbi (in particular) v.  mecz
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One is allowed to speak of tzorchei tzibbur on Shabbos.  See O.Ch 306:6 for
examples.  The prohibition of Mim'tzo cheftzecha that prohibits
non-shabbosdic endeavors and discussions only applied to one's personal
needs, not cheftzei Shamayim.

It appears that one would, therefore, be allowed to discuss the purchase of
a lulav or tefillin on Shabbos, and the Shulchan Aruch (306:11) allows one
to buy a house in Eretz Yisroel from an eino-yehudi on Shabbos.

Joshua Meisner

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Harvey Benton <harvw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> hear from someone that shidduch financial arrangements (in details) are
> allowed on
> shabbas?
> is this true? if so why? (and why not for other "mitzvot" like building a
> house (hachnasas
> orchim), or lulav etrog (midoraisa) or tefilling/mezuzos, etc?
> also.....
> why is selling aliyas, petichat haaron (yom kipuur rosh hashanna,etc) ok??
> (tzarchei tzibur (unless going to the rabbi (in particular) v.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Harvey Benton <harvw...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> why would we care (or not care) that people driving (walking by) at time of
> birchas levana
> might think we are worshipping, (or blessing the moon) as it may be???
>
>

The Magen Avraham (O.Ch. 426:8-9), quoting the Shloh, states that it is
assur to look at the moon after the original glance to determine its
location, and that one should be careful not to bend one's knees while
leaping towards it, so as to not appear to be bowing to the moon.

Joshua Meisner
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On 14/09/2011 4:44 PM, Joshua Meisner wrote:
> The Magen Avraham (O.Ch. 426:8-9), quoting the Shloh, states that it
> is assur to look at the moon after the original glance to determine
> its location, and that one should be careful not to bend one's knees
> while leaping towards it, so as to not appear to be bowing to the
> moon.

This is also why we say Alenu after it.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

never heard of the leaping thing, 

but the aino yehudim (or people that are not that frum

don't know of these nuances..... 

mecz
cc: my brother (jeff, or avodah, if propriate.....)

________________________________
From: Joshua Meisner <jmeis...@gmail.com>
To: Harvey Benton <harvw...@yahoo.com>; A High-Level Torah Discussion Group <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Avodah] maarit ayin at birchas levana...


On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Harvey Benton <harvw...@yahoo.com> wrote:

why would we care (or not care) that people driving (walking by) at time of birchas levana
>might think we are worshipping, (or blessing the moon) as it may be???
>?
>
The Magen Avraham (O.Ch. 426:8-9), quoting the Shloh, states that it is
assur to look at the moon after the original glance to determine its
location, and that one should be careful not to bend one's knees while
leaping towards it, so as to not appear to be bowing to the moon.

Joshua Meisner
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In responding to a comment about the pronunciation of ayin by Ashkenazim, R. Elazar M. Teitz wrote 

"I believe S. has confused Yiddishisms with Hebrew pronunciation. 
Ashkenazim, as far as I am aware, have no problem pronouncing consecutive
patachs at the beginning of a word.  The use of "mairiv" and "taina" is the
Yiddish pronunciation of the Hebrew words "ma'ariv" and "ta'ana," just as,
e.g., "cholem" is not a mispronunciation of "chalom," "yontef" is not a
mispronunciation of "yom tov' (and, parenthetically, therefore "gut yontef"
is not a redundancy, though "gut yom tov" would be), "balebus" is not a
mispronunciation of "ba'al habayis), etc. The proof is obvious: the same
person who will say "It's time for mairiv" will, a minute later, have no
problem saying "hama'ariv aravim."  Indeed, I have never heard anyone say
"hamairiv aravim" in his davening, nor does anyone say "bal g'vuros" rather
than "ba'al g'vuros," even though that same person will talk about the "bal
tfila."  Yiddish incorporated many Hebrew words within itself, but changed
their pronunciations, just as i
 t changed grammatiical construction, as in the plural of "bar-mitzva"
 (bar-mitzvas, not b'nei mitzva) or the female counterpart of "balebus"
 (balebusta, not ba'alas bayis, or even balas bayis). It is also why "bal
 koyre" and "bal toikeya" are not incorrect; they are the proper Yiddish
 terms fro those who leien and blow shofar, respectively."

I have heard people daven this way. In fact I would guess that most nights
that is precisely what I hear. I must have heard dozens if not hundreds of
Ashkenazi Jews say "mayriv aravim."  I must travel in circles of amaratzim
(pun intended). But my anecdotal evidence is as good as yours. Furthermore,
I'm not certain we can bring proof from contemporary pronunciation patterns
altogether, as they are compromised by influence from the hodgepodging of
the Asheknazim in the diaspora, our new vernaculars, etc. For example,
havara Ashkenazis with a cholem that sounds like the "o" in "home" lo hayva
velo nivra, yet it is quite common nowadays. 

I am not saying that Ashkenazim cannot pronounce words correctly (i.e,
their mouths just will not move in the right way). But surely you will not
claim that the way Hebrew pronunciation developed in Ashkenazic lands
included properly differentiating between mil'el and mil'ra, pronouncing
most shevas according to the rules of dikduk? The fact that an Ashkenazi is
capable of learning the rules and taking care to pronounce Hebrew correctly
according to those rules does not mean that whenever an Ashkenazi fails to
do so, really he's speaking Yiddish. Ashkenazim can learn to differentiate
between a hheth and a khaf too, but it is insufficient to say that failing
to do so is "Yiddish" rather than Hebrew. Call "mayrev" Yiddish if you
like, but then so is "Yankev" and "Yankel." If so, whence the ayin?

"As for the "n" sound in "Yankev," that it is an attempt to pronounce ayin
can be seen from the halacha that if a Ya'akov is called Yankel, the name
is written in a get without a nun"

 

All we see from that is the recognition that "Yankel" is a kinnui for
"Ya'akov," and in trying to fix a proper spelling, the poskim decided to
prefer an ayin rather than a nun. Many people pronounce "Yankev" as if it's
spelled with a peh rafeh at the end, but no one suggests that it shouldn't
be spelled with a beis. Why should the "n" corruption be any different?

Also, there is no logical reason why only one ayin should be pronounced by
Ashkenazim out of all the Hebrew words and names. The question is whether
"Yankev" is some kind of historical residue of a pronounced ayin or just an
easier, slurred way of saying "Ya'akov" (with an unpronounced ayin). As I
pointed out, Ashkenazim also slur other Hebrew words with the same mishkal.
Slurring it in the same way ("Yaykev") is more difficult than softening it
to "Yankev." Therefore without additional evidence, I do not see how we
know to connect it with a voiced ayin many centuries ago. The question is
historical ayins 500 years ago, 1000 years ago. We have to know when
Ashkenazim began saying "Yankev" to know if it is related to a voiced ayin
or not.

Kol tuv,
S.
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On 14/09/2011 4:34 PM, Gershon Dubin wrote:
> Yes;  across the board, although I'd be surprised to hear that most
> people buy a house in order to do hachnasas orchim.  However, buying a
> house in Eretz Yisrael is specifically permitted, as are shidduch
> negotiations and tzorchei tzibur.	The others, by extension.

Bear in mind that hachnosas orchim has a specific definition.  Inviting
ones friends and neighbours for a Shabbos meal is *not* hachnosas orchim
and does not justify leniencies on Shabbos.  Orchim are travellers, those
who have nowhere else to go, so housing and feeding them is a mitzvah,
which does indeed justify leniencies in hilchos Shabbos (see OC 308).
If one is buying a house as a hekdesh for this purpose then of course
one may do so on Shabbos, but buying a house in chu"l for oneself does
not cease to be "cheftzecha" just because one will do mitzvos inside it,
such as putting up a mezuzah, learning Torah, teaching ones children,
or hosting the occasional traveller.  The purpose of buying the house
is to live in it, and all those other mitzvos are a mere consequence
of that; one does them wherever one lives.  Living in the house itself
is not a mitzvah, so it is "cheftzecha".  In EY, OTOH, living in the
house is itself a mitzvah, and therefore not only may one negotiate to
buy it, but Chazal even permitted amira lenochri for this purpose.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

In Avodah V28n185, RHB asked:
> kol yis rael yesh lahem chelek l'olam haba??
why not "b" olam haba?
{similar question to lech l'shalom vs. lech B' shalom??} <
And then there's "kal-Yisrael areivim zeh bazeh," also known as "...lazeh,"
as well as "hayom <#days/weeks> baOmer" vs. "...laOmer."	At first
thought, the "b" prefix seems to indicate being part and parcel/in the
midst of while the "l" prefix seems to indicate some degree of separation
from/seeing the entity with perspective.  I hope that helps rather than
muddles :). 

All the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

On: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 20:25:00 +0000 (UTC)R' shalomyitz@comcast.netWrote:
Subject: [Avodah] dropping tzistzis after Shema >Does anyone know why
after Shema in the morning we let go of our tzistizs davka between "l'ad" 
>and "ul'olimay olamim"?  >Why specifically there?
_______________________________Here is a collection of sources on the
minhagim of holding tzizit during Keriyat Shema:http://www
.daat.ac.il/daat/kitveyet/maaliyot/ahizat-2.htm
Among the sources brought there are Kitzur Shulchan Aruch Siman 17, Seif 7 and Mishnah Berurah Siman 24, Seif 2 [Seif Katan 4].
All I found  as to why specifically the tzizit are put down at "l'ad" is
that  such is brought in the Kitvei Arizal. Perhaps someone can comment
further after checking the sources.
KT
Eliyahu
                                          
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On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 07:00:36AM -0400, Allen Gerstl wrote:
: Here is a collection of sources on the minhagim of holding tzizit during
: Keriyat Shema:http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/kitveyet/maaliyot/ahizat-2.htm

: Among the sources brought there are Kitzur Shulchan Aruch Siman 17,
: Seif 7 and Mishnah Berurah Siman 24, Seif 2 [Seif Katan 4].
: All I found as to why specifically the tzizit are put down at "l'ad"
: is that such is brought in the Kitvei Arizal. Perhaps someone can
: comment further after checking the sources.

What I learned checking the sources given by R' Simon Montagu in a
previous iteration (Jan 2005):

The MA (OC 24, s' 2, s"q 1) mentions Kisvei haAriv, but WRT to kissing the
tzitzis at this point. I think letting go of them then is a consequence
of it being the last time they're needed for kissing. (And not, as I had
thought prior to the discussion, that at "la'ad" we give them a parting
kiss, with the letting go being the iqar.)

The Kaf haChaim (s"q 8) quotes Sha'ar haKavanos (derush "Qeri'as Shema
27b) about it length.

Also, the MA mentions looking at them for ure'isem oso and kissing them
at la'ad, but nothing about kissing them when saying the word tzitzis.
And this is what one sees in the Gra and MB.

If you go back to the 18th cent, RDBannet tells us, there is mention of
kissing the tzitzis three times, but not at the word "tzitzis".

So, all I did was rephrase the question. Why is there a minhag to kiss
one's tzitzis at "la'ad"?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507

When and why did this dichotomy take place (Bnei Ashkenaz only, IINM)?

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
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In a recent daf yomi the gemara discusses pesukim in Mishle that discuss the
behavior of ants. One amora decided to
scientifically check the behavior of ants and seems to be criticized by the
gemara for not just relying on
King Solomon.
There is a debate among achronim whether shlomo knew his facts by kabalah or
by observation.

Since modern science rests strongly on experimental evidence as against
quotes from authority it would
seem that modern man would interpret the pesukim as an example with a lesson
rather than taking
the pesukim literally. Nevertheless, the gemara hints that this approach is
wrong. It does depend to some
degree on the argument between Chatam Sofer and Malbim on how shlomo knew
his facts

-- 
Eli Turkel
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I was told that one of them was Nusach Eretz Yisrael and the other was 
Nusach Bavel, and that the mix was a compromise, much like the two 
versions of Hashkiveinu.

On 9/15/2011 11:47 AM, Gershon Dubin wrote:
> When and why did this dichotomy take place (Bnei Ashkenaz only, IINM)?
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On 15/09/2011 2:34 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> I was told that one of them was Nusach Eretz Yisrael and the other was
> Nusach Bavel, and that the mix was a compromise, much like the two
> versions of Hashkiveinu.

Except that Nusach Italy (which always says Ledor Vador, rather than
dropping it for Ata Kadosh in the silent Sh"E) knows nothing of Shalom Rav.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

since eliyahu is before the mishna (and even the novi who talks about what he needs (or will do)
does he have to listen to the later authorities??
?
mecz
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On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 01:34:03PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> I was told that one of them was Nusach Eretz Yisrael and the other was  
> Nusach Bavel, and that the mix was a compromise, much like the two  
> versions of Hashkiveinu.

RRW suggested in past iterations that Ashk inherited a range of versions,
and compromised to try to keep as many as possible. This is why we use
"Oseh haShalom" for the chasimah during 10 Yemei Teshuvah, and both Sim
Shalom and Shalom Rav daily.

According to R' Yechezkel Luger's The Weekday Amidah in the Cairo Genizah,
3 different version of the 18th berakhah of the Amidah were found in the
geniza: the current Ashkenaz Sim Shalom, Sim Shelomekha (which ends either
"oseh hashalom" or in one subvariant "me'on haberakhos ve'oseh hashalom"),
and Shalom Rav.

(Machon Shilo, in their recreation of Nusach EY use "Sim Shelomekha". I
don't know R' Chaim b David's justification of his choice. I did notice
that he pretty consistently ends up with the shorter of the alternatives.
This could reflect personal bias, or perhaps EY had a tendency toward less
repetition and fewer adjectives and adverbs than other areas.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is harder to eat the day before Yom Kippur
mi...@aishdas.org        with the proper intent than to fast on Yom
http://www.aishdas.org   Kippur with that intent.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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