Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 192

Mon, 26 Sep 2011

• 1. Re: if speed-of-light constant fails (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: if speed-of-light constant fails (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: if speed-of-light constant fails (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 4. The Kosher Switch: A Response from the Tzomet Institute?s Rabbi Yisrael Rosen (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: r reisman's question (T6...@aol.com)
• 6. Re: r reisman's question (Zev Sero)
• 7. RYBS: Sources for "Lonely Man of Faith" (Efraim Yawitz)
• 8. Flight or Fight (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: Flight or Fight (Shlomo Engelson Argamon)
• 10. Re: Flight or Fight (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 11. Re: Flight or Fight (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Flight or Fight (T6...@aol.com)

On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 11:52:49AM -0700, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: are there any  theological implications if  it  turns out that fundamental 
: constants  are proven to be not so?
: or just not to put faith in science?
: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484

What does "not putting one's faith in science" mean? Not using the latest
medicine to save one's life?

WRT religion, I don't know of too many people whose faith rests or is
disabused by scientific theory. It's more like the language in which we
have the discourse. For example, whether one speaks of loss of form,
entropy or information theory, theologians still discuss the Argument
from Design.

(In any case, no one is claiming this experiment actually showed neutrinos
exceeding the speed of light. The paper is an appeal for help figuring out
what they did wrong.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When we are no longer able to change a situation
mi...@aishdas.org        -- just think of an incurable disease such as
http://www.aishdas.org   inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
Fax: (270) 514-1507      ourselves.      - Victor Frankl (MSfM)

On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 11:52:49AM -0700, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: are there any  theological implications if  it  turns out that fundamental 
: constants  are proven to be not so?
: or just not to put faith in science?
: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484

What does "not putting one's faith in science" mean? Not using the latest
medicine to save one's life?

WRT religion, I don't know of too many people whose faith rests or is
disabused by scientific theory. It's more like the language in which we
have the discourse. For example, whether one speaks of loss of form,
entropy or information theory, theologians still discuss the Argument
from Design.

(In any case, no one is claiming this experiment actually showed neutrinos
exceeding the speed of light. The paper is an appeal for help figuring out
what they did wrong.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When we are no longer able to change a situation
mi...@aishdas.org        -- just think of an incurable disease such as
http://www.aishdas.org   inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
Fax: (270) 514-1507      ourselves.      - Victor Frankl (MSfM)

R' Saul Newman asked:

> are there any theological implications if it turns out that
> fundamental constants are proven to be not so?

It seems to me that the implications would be the exact converse (reverse?
inverse? sorry, I've forgotten - R"n Katz: help!) of the implications which
we faced back when it was first proven that these were indeed fundamental
constants.

In other words: None that I can think of.

I can see theological implications of the sun going around the earth or vice versa. But of the speed of light? Where did Chazal talk about such things?

On the other hand, if this opens the door to truly going back in time, then
I see at least two areas of theological implications: (1) Research into
historical events could overturn millenia of understanding. (2) We
accustomed to the concept of "cause and effect", where the cause comes
first. If the cause comes after the effect, ... I can't even imagine the
philosophical and theological implications. This is stuff for the real
PhD's.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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 From http://tinyurl.com/43wk22s   Note A in particular! YL

o Rabbi David Mescheloff, 21st of Elul 5771,09/20/11

Subject: Kosher Switch for Shabbat

In response to your request, I shall refer to the 
electric switch presented as the ?Kosher Switch?, 
and to the website link you sent me, which 
explains the Halachic background, and even 
appends a long list of rabbis who have expressed a blessing or support.

The following is my position:

A. Truth be told, I was amazed how easy it is to 
receive endorsement letters from rabbis. It is 
apparent that one relies on the other, without 
taking personal responsibility, and with the fall 
of the foundation the entire house falls. I do 
not know what was explained to the rabbis that 
?signed?; however it is clear to any reasonable 
halachic man that there is no way to permit 
prohibitions of Shabbat (D?Oraita or D?Rabbanan), 
not even with Halachic tricks or acrobatics.

B. The whole proposed story relies on the 
leniency of ?Gramma?, which no consensus rabbi 
would permit L?chatchila for domestic and 
personal use.  All ?Gramma? or similar halakhic 
arrangements carried out by the Zomet Institute 
or Technology Institute in Jerusalem were 
permitted solely for medical, security and 
similar needs.  Even if they added to the 
?Gramma? additional apparatuses, and even if 
there is a one in a thousand chance that the 
action will not occur, I have received from my 
rabbis (R. Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and R. Shaul 
Yisraeli) that this does not change in any way 
the halakhic status of regular ?Gramma? (just 
like Gramma D?Gramma and other artificial arrangements).

C. Even if the method of operation is non-active 
from the point of view of the agent, i.e. because 
he merely removes the ?preventing 
element,?  Rabbi S. Z. Auerbach and others wrote 
that this remains forbidden and is treated like 
it was done directly by the person, since the 
action occurs immediately after the human 
intervention/action.   Even if the result comes 
only after a delay caused by an additional 
factor, this is plain Gramma, which is still not permitted L?chatchila.

D. And here is the main part of my remarks: 
Yesterday I went to my teacher and rabbi HaGaon 
Rabbi Yehoshua Neuwirth, Shlita, and I asked him 
whether he permitted to use this switch to 
activate electricity on Shabbat for the purposes 
of Oneg Shabbat, etc? He was really shocked and 
said he never permitted that.  When I showed him 
the endorsement letter, he added in his 
handwriting: ?Only for medicine and security? 
(see photo in attached Hebrew article). Rabbi 
Avigdor Nebenzahl Shlita, who signed a similar 
letter, also told me yesterday that he does not 
recall ever signing anything like that, and 
expressed the opinion that there is no place for 
this and was puzzled about the whole thing.

I suppose that whoever managed to get the 
signatures of important rabbis ?sold? them an 
invention that is a kind of a complex Gramma used 
for the purpose of medicine or security, and 
succeeded in skipping this condition when they signed.

E. With regard to the claim, written in their 
accompanying halachic responsum, that it is 
permitted to use this Gramma switch to minimize 
the prohibition of those who willfully the 
violate the Shabbat, we have never heard of such 
rabbis who permit this. I am sure that those who 
?agreed? did not see this argument, and this is 
an argument that should not be stated.

With prayer L?Ktiva Vachatima Tova to all of Israel,

Rabbi Yisrael Rosen, Head of the Zomet Institute

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From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
>> We know that Moshe Rabbeinu  was born on the 7th of Adar and died on the
7th of Adar. There seems to be a  problem. If you say that someone lived a 
full year it would mean that  someone born on the 7th of Adar would die on 
the 6th of Adar. The full year  is complete at a moment that the year is 
up. When a boy is Bar Mitzvah if he  was born on the 7th of Adar he is Bar 
Mitzvah at sunset of the 6th of Adar.  The year is completed a day early. 
It does not seem correct that Moshe  Rabbeinu should be born on the 7th of 
Adar and die on the 7th of Adar and we  should say such an expression (???? 
???? ??? ??????). Tzorech Iyun. 

 
>>>>>
 
You've got something in Hebrew there that shows up as a series of question  
marks on my screen, so I don't know what that is.  But there is an obvious  
answer to the question you pose (if I understand it correctly).  How can it 
 be that a person is born on 7 Adar and also dies on 7 Adar and we call 
that a  full year? (Or in Moshe Rabbeinu's case, 120 full years.)  Isn't that a 
 year plus a day?  The answer is no, it's just one full year, not a year 
and  a day.  Let's say he was born at 7AM on 7 Adar.  If he then dies on 6  
Adar just before sunset at 7PM -- let's say for example -- then he is dying  
about 12 hours short of a full year.
 
IOW to make it a full year he has to die on the same date at the same time  
as the day he was born to fill in the hours of the date he was born that he 
was  not yet in the world.
 
The bar mitzva example is only somewhat relevant because I assume the  
halacha is counting the day you were born as one full day regardless of what  
time you were born.  But that's because that's how humans have to work,  they 
can't go figuring out exact hours and minutes.  But Hashem can.
 
 

--Toby  Katz
================




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On 23/09/2011 1:12 PM, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
>
> We know that Moshe Rabbeinu was born on the 7^th of Adar and died on
> the 7^th of Adar. There seems to be a problem. If you say that someone
> lived a full year it would mean that someone born on the 7^th of Adar
> would die on the 6^th of Adar.

How so?   If something happened last Shabbos, it didn't happen a week ago
today, it happened 6 days ago.


> The full year is complete at a moment that the year is up

By which time it is the 7th.


> When a boy is Bar Mitzvah if he was born on the 7^th of Adar he is
> Bar Mitzvah at sunset of the 6^th of Adar. The year is completed a day
> early.

It is not!!!  He is not bar mitzvah until it is the 7th.  Just to make
sure that one doesn't make the mistake of thinking this, we use the
expression "veyom echad", meaning the first day of the 14th year has
already started.



> It does not seem correct that Moshe Rabbeinu should be born on the 7^th
> of Adar and die on the 7^th of Adar and we should say such an expression
> (???? ???? ??? ??????). Tzorech Iyun.

On the contrary, had he died even a minute early, how could he say
"mal'u"?

The real question is that if it's really true that HKBH completes the
years of tzadikim, why don't we see it more often?  There are so many
people of undoubtable tzidkus who did not die on their birthdays.  Last
week I heard an interesting explanation in the name of the Chasam Sofer:
a tzadik dies on the anniversary of the event that made him who he is,
the encounter with Hashem that turned his life around and caused him to
become a tzadik.  In some cases, e.g. Moshe, a person was a tzadik from
birth.  In other cases, it may be the bar mitzvah, when the full yetzer
tov enters a person, that he dedicates himself to Hashem and never wavers
from that path.  But in many cases the important event happened on another
date, and only he and Hashem know when it was.  (This works even better
if we include the concept of ibbur neshamos, but that wasn't in the CS's
explanation, at least as it was quoted.)


-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

Hi,

I've been browsing through an essay by Professor Alan Brill in a book about
RYBS's thought called "Rav ba'Olam Chadash" in which he claims that the
central ideas for "The Lonely Man of Faith" (the "covenantal community",
"two Adams", etc.) were taken from the writings of early 20th century
Christian theologians.  Does anyone know anything about this?

(I would appreciate if people would Cc: me with any replies.)

Thanks,

Ephraim
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 From http://tinyurl.com/3okfklw

My husband and son took a New York-to-Milwaukee flight that was 
supposed to leave Friday at 11:29 a.m. The flight boarded after 4 and 
didn't leave the gate until 4:40, and a half-hour later the pilot 
announced it would be another hour until takeoff. At that point a 
devout Jewish family, worried about violating the Sabbath, asked to 
get off. Going back to the gate cost the plane its place in line for 
takeoff, and the flight was eventually canceled. Was the airline 
right to grant that request? M. W.,NORWALK, CONN.

Please see the response as well as the comments

Personally, I feel that this family had no business boarding a flight 
after 4 on a Friday afternoon.  Indeed, is one allowed to board a 
plane this close to the onset of Shabbos according to halacha?

And then I have to wonder once they decided to board after 4 PM and 
were on if they. were allowed to insist that the plane turn around 
given the obvious Chillul Shabbos that insisting the plane turn 
around generated?  The following is from two  of the comments.

43  I was on that flight and everything happened exactly as written 
in the letter. A few clarifications might be helpful. The flight was 
on a Friday in mid August. There were many inconvenienced travelers 
on the plane, including one gentleman who had been waiting all day to 
return home to Wisconsin after days of chemo therapy treatment at a 
major New York hospital. He spent the day stoically sitting in a 
wheelchair by the boarding gate with his wife. Not one complaint, 
just acceptance of his fate. I belive he had to return to his hotel 
to spend the night and try again the following morning.

Also, a few notes about the family in question. They were fretting 
about leaving on the delayed flight well before the final boarding as 
they were aware of time constraints and pending nightfall in 
Milwaukee. After the cancellation, I happened to see the father at 
baggage claim where we had all gone to retrieve our luggage. I asked 
him if he was aware that he had greatly inconvenienced a full plane 
of passengers already exhausted from spending a full day at the 
airport. He merely shrugged his shoulders and showed no remorse or 
concern for others. I was frankly quite disturbed by his lack of 
consideration.

44  I am an Orthodox Jew and here's how I see it:

I will also say that the pilot was wrong. I am a seasoned traveler, 
and I would NEVER board a plane that late on a Friday, not even in 
June, and not even if it was a quick NY to Boston flight. There's 
just too much potential for delays to screw up your timing even after 
you board. If you take Sabbath observance seriously, this is a risk 
you just don't take. You play with fire, you get burned- had they 
been made to stay and ended up violating the Sabbath, they would have 
to deal with the spiritual consequences of their decision-making; 
scary for those of us who believe, but unfortunately, that isn't a 
good reason to delay a plane full of people. I will reiterate, if 
you're that devout, you just don't take this kind of chance.

YL




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I once asked Rav Chaim Malinowitz about a similar story I'd heard, as it 
just seemed wrong to me, and a potential chillul Hashem, to boot.  His 
response was that the Jewish family certainly would have no right to 
demand that the plane return to the gate - they took responsibility when 
they got on the plane.  But perhaps what they should have done is 
offered to compensate all the passengers for the delay, since one is 
liable to expend up to all of one's assets in order to not violate a 
lav.  Any errors in transmission are mine, and of course, don't rely on 
this as halacha lema'aseh!

On 9/25/11 4:04 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> From http://tinyurl.com/3okfklw
>
> /My husband and son took a New York-to-Milwaukee flight that was 
> supposed to leave Friday at 11:29 a.m. The flight boarded after 4 and 
> didn't leave the gate until 4:40, and a half-hour later the pilot 
> announced it would be another hour until takeoff. At that point a 
> devout Jewish family, worried about violating the Sabbath, asked to 
> get off. Going back to the gate cost the plane its place in line for 
> takeoff, and the flight was eventually canceled. Was the airline right 
> to grant that request? /M. W.,NORWALK, CONN.
>
> Please see the response.
>
> Personally, I feel that this family had no business boarding a flight 
> after 4 on a Friday afternoon.  Indeed, is one allowed to this 
> according to halacha?  YL
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R' Shlomo Argaman:
<SNIP> His response was that the Jewish family certainly would have no right
to demand that the plane return to the gate - they took responsibility when
they got on the plane.? But perhaps what they should have done is offered to
compensate all the passengers for the delay, since one is liable to expend
up to all of one's assets in order to not violate a lav.
<SNIP>
---------------



KT,
MYG

On 25/09/2011 6:25 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Personally, I feel that this family had no business boarding a flight
> after 4 on a Friday afternoon.  Indeed, is one allowed to board a plane
> this close to the onset of Shabbos according to halacha?

Doesn't that depend on when Shabbos starts?  You don't know what time
of year it was.  Candlelighting in Milwaukee in midsummer is at 9:17
NY time, so if the plane will take off before 6 you will still make it.
At 4, this is still a reasonable prospect.  At 4:40, it's getting iffy,
but still a judgment call. When at 5:10 the pilot announced that they
would take off in an hour, that's when the alarm bells would have started
ringing.  An actual hard 6:10 takeoff is probably still doable, depending
on how far you have to travel from the airport, but of course there's no
guarantee that 6:10 won't become 6:30 or 7:00, and then you're in trouble.


> And then I have to wonder once they decided to board after 4 PM and were
> on if they. were allowed to insist that the plane turn around given the
> obvious Chillul Shabbos that insisting the plane turn around generated?

Chilul Shabbos?!

Assuming you meant chilul Hashem, first of all on the contrary it's a
kiddush Hashem that the world should see how important Shabbos is.
Second, they were in no position to *insist* on anything; they requested,
and the pilot agreed.  Presumably the pilot didn't know what would
result.  Why is that their fault?

Third, you can be sure that if the pilot or one of the crew was coming
up on their rest period that's in their contract and the FAA rules, they
would have turned around no matter how much it inconvenienced the
passengers; even though it would surely be perfectly safe to have them
run half an hour or an hour over their legal hours, they would never
dream of infringing on the holy regulations by even kechut hasa'arah.
If that means everybody spends the night in NY, then so be it.  How then
should HKBH's regulations get less respect?

Also note that the "ethicist" thinks it would be perfectly reasonable
to turn the plane around if someone had a medical emergency.  Why is
one person's medical emergency more important than another person's
Shabbos emergency?



-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

In a message dated 9/25/2011, llev...@stevens.edu writes:
 
From _http://tinyurl.com/3okfklw_ (http://tinyurl.com/3okfklw) 

My  husband and son took a New York-to-Milwaukee flight that was supposed 
to leave  Friday at 11:29 a.m. The flight boarded after 4 and didn?t leave 
the gate  until 4:40, and a half-hour later the pilot announced it would be 
another hour  until takeoff. At that point a devout Jewish family, worried 
about violating  the Sabbath, asked to get off. Going back to the gate cost the 
plane its place  in line for takeoff, and the flight was eventually 
canceled. Was the airline  right to grant that request? M. W.,NORWALK, CONN. 

Please see the  response.

Personally, I feel that this family had no business boarding  a flight 
after 4 on a Friday afternoon.  Indeed, is one allowed to this  according to 
halacha?  YL 

 
>>>>>
 
Airline was right to go back to the gate and let them off, because the  
flight had been delayed already by so many hours and because they weren't told  
before boarding that it was going to be delayed /another/ hour.
 
I think there is now some kind of law or regulation in place anyway, that  
if you sit on the tarmac more than X hours the airline has to let you off 
the  plane.
 
But they shouldn't have boarded the plane so late in the afternoon on a  
Friday in the first place, it's just too risky.  Once their 11:30  AM flight 
was delayed they should have changed their flight plans.  Of  course it's 
possible they tried and the airline wouldn't let them change their  ticket 
without paying hundreds of extra dollars.  Maybe that's why they  hung around 
and waited to see what would be with the flight, hoping they would  still make 
it to their destination in time for Shabbos.
 
There is certainly room to be melamed zechus here.  I  have had a  few 
close calls with Shabbos, traveling on a Friday.  Is there anyone who  hasn't?
 
RYL asks what is the halacha re whether they should have boarded the plane  
at 4PM.  I have a different question:  What if they had not been  allowed 
to get off the plane after boarding, and were still aboard the plane  when it 
finally took off -- already Shabbos?   
 
What would they or should they then do about candle lighting (ask for a  
flashlight?), Shabbos davening, kiddush and seudah, deplaning upon arrival,  
getting their luggage, getting to their host's home -- all happening when it 
is  fully dark and definitely Shabbos in Milwaukee?  
 
I devoutly pray never to need this information but you never know.   Many 
years ago someone arrived back in South Africa when it was already  Shabbos 
(his plane had been delayed and his family knew he was going to be  coming in 
late).  His mother went to the airport before Shabbos and left  food and 
wine there for him and arranged for him to spend Shabbos in someone's  office 
at the airport. No cell phones back then, he was simply informed  when he 
landed that there was food and a couch waiting for him.  His  mother went home 
before Shabbos and she saw her son the next day after  Shabbos.  With 
today's security rules I doubt any such thing could be  arranged today.
 
Did she do right?  Should she instead have arranged for a cab and  driver 
to be waiting for him at the airport to take him home on Shabbos?
 
Getting back to these recent Milwaukee-bound travelers -- if they arrived  
in Milwaukee when it was Shabbos already, would they have to spend Shabbos 
in  the airport?  Could they buy food in the airport on Shabbos?  Could  they 
ask a goy to take money out of their wallets and buy food for them?   And 
can the entire airport -- or just the one concourse -- or no part of the  
airport at all, be considered one domain in which they can carry?   Do  they 
have to stay in one small area the entire Shabbos?  Is it considered  that 
they came from outside the techum Shabbos on Shabbos and therefore can't  take 
another step once they land?  I'm not too clear on the halachos of  techum 
Shabbos, I must admit, maybe time for a brief primer here.
 

--Toby Katz
================




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